Illaoi is, in my opinion, the worst Juggernaut design

Malicious Metal·Sep 10, 2017·89 votes·7,087 views

Simply because she has no agency over the game herself. She relies 100% on the enemy being stupid, bad or just underestimating her to even hope to kill something.

She's a Juggernaut with easily avoidable damage, a lack of real utility, no CC or mobility to stick to her targets and worst of all: She requires too much setup for her damage.

And the cherry on top: You just need to walk away the moment she presses R and she'll be left sitting there, contemplating her life choices and pondering if it wouldn't have been better if she picked Garen.

144 Comments

Teridax68Sep 10, 201719 votes

I think the core problem with Illaoi is that fights involving her feel like either she or her opponent has no real agency upon the outcome. If the opponent is ranged, aside from landing E on them she can't really do much at all to affect them, which feels terrible for Illaoi, but if her opponent is melee, there is little they can do to avoid getting constantly bullied, as her "dodgeable" tentacles aren't actually all that easy to dodge when several come down upon you at a time from all sides, unless you have reliable access to mobility and/or untargetability. She needs to have more options against ranged opponents, but also needs to give more opportunities to melee champions to outplay her, and it's this binary relationship relative to range that exemplifies the issues with hardline juggernaut design.

Some more issues I take with her kit:

Killing her tentacles as a melee champion is a trap, as she can easily spawn more and punish you for it. By contrast, ranged champions can kill her tentacles far too easily. This is a problem inherent to most summonable units, but is particularly bad on Illaoi due to how she punishes melee champions so harshly already.
Her tentacle damage stacking worsens her problems: against melee opponents, not only do they have fewer spots to run away to, they also get punished harder while in combat; against ranged champions, however, it carries little impact unless they mess up spectacularly, as they are much more able to stay out of range. It's also what requires her to stay in the same place to have any chance of dealing good damage, unless the enemy team messes up and she wipes them all out with an ult.
Her E stopping at minions isn't really all that helpful: melee champions in top lane don't really have the luxury of standing behing their wave at all times, so they can't really apply that form of counterplay consistently, but ranged champions can, which merely widens her melee vs. ranged performance gap.
The rest of her Spirit gameplay is all over the place: originally, the idea was that the affected enemy champion had to fight Illaoi to cancel the spirit, but that got removed since it turned out to be a trap choice (EDIT: the effect was not removed on Live, though it was considered for a patch cycle, ty Auz the Ripper), so now the only truly valid thing to do is to just run away, which inflicts the target with a long-duration debuff. Her E right now is a cool-looking effect, but one that has very little actual interactivity for her opponent, and so needs some adjustments to give the opponent clearer options.
Her progressive tentacle spawning is a major reason why she's oppressive in lane, but otherwise not particularly good later on. It's a very narrow application of her thematic: Illaoi is there to punish enemies who aren't constantly on the move, but if she does the same and keeps moving around, she suffers. Illaoi should be able to control the area around her, but her success should revolve around landing her telegraphed attacks upon enemies out of position, not just standing around and waiting for the enemy team to walk together into her death zone. Because that condition is automatically fulfilled just by the enemy laner being forced to remain in lane, that often gives her opponent too little agency there as well.

Some suggestions I'd make to improve her (and I speak here as an Illaoi non-main):

Have all of her tentacles besides her ult's be pre-spawned and untargetable, and have them immediately become visible and active once Illaoi gets in range. It would signal to her enemies that she's in the area, but would focus her counterplay around dodging her stuff, which could equalize her somewhat versus ranged opponents and allow her to become a threat more quickly.
Prevent her tentacle damage from stacking, remove her ult's tentacle speed-up, and instead increase their individual damage. That way, her counterplay more clearly comes down to just not standing in her hurt zones, instead of getting extra-punished if several tentacles are around (which already makes them more difficult to dodge in the first place).
Let her E projectile pass through minions, and give the spirit/vessel effect an update: if the intended counterplay is to run away from Illaoi, then the Vessel debuff should be dropped entirely and she should be given more power when her enemy's still around. If the intended counterplay is to stay around her, it might be better to not have the spirit transfer damage to the body as a baseline, but have it do so only when the target gets out of range, and buff her when she succeeds at doing that.
Perhaps make her Q also cause all of her other tentacles in range to slam towards the target point: since the damage wouldn't stack anymore, it wouldn't punish melee opponents excessively, but it could be used to catch opponents from a distance when they think they're safe.

There's probably more that could be done to help Illaoi (her R is a mess of steroids on top of its tentacle spawning effect and nuke), but those I think are key points in her kit that could be improved to give her a bit more interactivity, and hopefully a bit more agency when moving around.

PopcornBunniSep 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There's probably more that could be done to help Illaoi (her R is a mess of steroids on top of its tentacle spawning effect and nuke), but those I think are key points in her kit that could be improved to give her a bit more interactivity, and hopefully a bit more agency when moving around.

I'll repost my thoughts from a previous threads

Tentacles: Faster Tentacle spawns when roaming, slower regrowth during laning, allowing quicker opportunities to use Harsh Lesson (W). Damage chunks % health to better interact with Harsh Lesson and Test of Spirit (E) and have a higher impact at the start of fights, as well as against ranged opponents. Melee opponents are more effected by multiple tentacles slamming at once so the damage fall off is amplified.

NEW!: Tentacles can not spawn near the same spot as a recently killed tentacle for 15 seconds, lowered by 5 seconds for each rank of Leap of Faith (R)

Tentacle spawn timer ~~20 (at level 1) - 12 (at level 17) seconds~~ -> 14 (at level 1) - 8 (at level 13) seconds

NEW!: Enemy melee basic attacks remove two HP from tentacles from one

Multiple Tentacle damage reduction:~~50% if hit by a tentacle in the last 0.5 seconds~~ -> 50%, and another 50% reduction for each other tentacle that hit in the last 1 second down to a minimum of 25%

Tentacle damage ~~10-180 (based on level) +120% Total AD (Not accounting for Tentacle Smash's bonus damage)~~

-> 5% of target's current health + 100% Total AD

Tentacle Smash (Q)

Cost ~~40/45/50/55/60~~ -> 60 at all ranks
Cooldown ~~10/9/8/7/6~~ seconds -> 20/18/16/14/12 seconds
NEW: Tentacle slam speed increases with rank -- Increase: 10/20/30/40/50%
Passive Tentacle damage bonus~~ 10/15/20/25/30%~~ -> +3/6/9/12/15% of enemy's current health NEW!: Tentacle Smash slows all enemy champions hit for 60%, decaying over 1.5 seconds, during which time they are grounded

Harsh Lesson (W)

Cost 30 -> 20/30/40/50/60
Cooldown ~~4 seconds~~ -> 3 Seconds

Test of Spirit (E) Better utility in laning, with longer cooldown at later ranks to add more time for melee opponents to capitalize on

Cooldown ~~20/18/16/14/12 seconds~~ -> 18 seconds
Change to Combating E: ~~Number of hits done to Illaoi~~ -> Total Damage against Illaoi
NEW! You have no spirit: Upon hitting a minion or monster, deals 50% of the victim's health +100% AD (Max 300 against monsters). If this kills the victim, a tentacle is spawned near it, if possible, causing near-by tentacles to slam over the area of the killed unit.

Auz the RipperSep 11, 20173 votes

The "Fight illaoi to lower the duration of the spirit" thing never actually got removed. The spirit's life time is still lowered by one second everytime she takes an instance of damage from the target

ZT XperimentorSep 26, 20172 votes

A silly idea I had in passing was, what if her tentacle attacks were more of a cone shape? Easier to dodge in melee range with a bigger hitbox farther away; but I know that in itself could be unbalanced as it'd let her farm safer and be unexpectedly more dangerous in teamfights.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 201718 votes

a lack of real utility,

no real utility between E granting true sight for as long as the spirit's up and the basically free damage she can do to you from her team? or the 12 second debuff that post-lane lets her steadily gain ground on you if you let her take the spirit? Not to mention that Illaoi can 100-0 champs like Sejuani/Rammus through their spirits without ever touching them which is hugely beneficial right now.

She makes up for being the least reliable by having a far bigger threat range than other juggernauts, even Mordekaiser. She doesn't need to bash her face into you to hurt you, and her range on Q and E means she can hit squishies through their front line.

no way to stick

her 2 second CD jump isn't sticky? Illaoi can be sticky if she wants to be. She generally chooses not to be because it means she moves further from her tentacles; and she doesn't need to bother with kills. Forcing you off of her means she can keep permapushing your side lane and making you spend more time trying to deal with her. As far as I'm concerned her overall objective control is the best of the juggernauts, and it's not even close.

illaoi's great, piss off

AFilthyCaitMainSep 10, 20174 votes

You do have points here but these points doesnt mean shes exactly great. Its what makes illaoi, illaoi, but not much else other than very useful abilities.

The thing is, against a team who knows what theyre doing, theyll cc lock and focus and illaoi down and have her dead in seconds. And to deal with her splitpushing, you send maybe 3 people, 1-2 with cc. Walk out of her ult, then when it wears off kill her or force her out of the lane. Shes just too exploitable

CowseedSep 10, 201714 votes

her 2 second CD jump isn't sticky?

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

it is tho

Malicious MetalSep 10, 20177 votes

Even Mordekaiser is stickier than Illaoi.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20173 votes

not really, unless you have items for it or SRS

and even then Illaoi's much better at keeping up w/ someone. again, she doesn't usually want to stick unless she's finishing you off. forcing you away from your tower or an epic monster is more than enough for illaoi; any kills she gets are just for the style points/the BM.

Malicious MetalSep 10, 20179 votes

Pfff, sure.

Illaoi's pathetic little hop is on the level of SRS speed buff, 20% 10 second Permaslow and 40 sec cd 40% Gunblade slow.

Suuuuuure.

And even then, if she does "Stick" she won't have the damage because she left her safe space.

TerozuSep 10, 20171 votes

Its .5 seconds when she ults.

CowseedSep 10, 20173 votes

Who actually is actually around an Illoai when they ult nowadays?

CosnirakSep 11, 20173 votes

basically free damage she can do to you from her team

Landing her E is far from free. Getting meaningful damage off of it even less so. It's one of the least free things in League...

Not to mention that Illaoi can 100-0 champs like Sejuani/Rammus through their spirits without ever touching them which is hugely beneficial right now.

What? How? That makes no sense.

She makes up for being the least reliable by having a far bigger threat range than other juggernauts, even Mordekaiser.

How so? Morde W out ranges her E and even if she lands E you can usually just walk away.

She doesn't need to bash her face into you to hurt you, and her range on Q and E means she can hit squishies through their front line.

What? She doesn't do much damage with a lone Q unless way ahead. Her E doesn't hit squishies through the front line at all.

her 2 second CD jump isn't sticky? Illaoi can be sticky if she wants to be.

It's only 2 seconds during ult. Even then it animation locks her a bit and is short ranged. By the time she's fighting someone besides top & jg they tend to be faster than her and any mobility spell or even just typical adc itemization will out run her despite W with ease.

Forcing you off of her means she can keep permapushing your side lane and making you spend more time trying to deal with her. As far as I'm concerned her overall objective control is the best of the juggernauts, and it's not even close.

That works for pushing a lane but it also makes her highly predictable and means she should never show up for dragon/baron. Unlike Trynd she's not good at tower diving or even that good at tower taking. If you try to gank her there with 3 or more people she can't leave and can't win or even trade unless ahead/they play like idiots. She is pretty good at the 1v2 in her tentacle nest though.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 10, 201715 votes

This.

Illaoi needs LESS counterplay, even if she has to sacrifice a few things for it.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20174 votes

If there were one major change I could give to Illaoi it would be one of two things

Either make her tentacles passively swing faster with each rank in ult, so that she becomes harder to dodge to make up for people getting their boots and mobility being up more often, so she can keep up with the game

Or give her movement speed when moving near swinging tentacles, to improve her ability to kite and chase around tentacles.

And then a few "QoL" (not really, they're buffs) like making it so her E doesn't become instantly negated by anyone with a DoT and corrupting potion.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 10, 20176 votes

These are all solid ideas. Illaois problems are MOSTLY easily solved. But at this point shes just a forgotten champion.

TzQGRUST39Sep 11, 20174 votes

Maybe they could make her ultimate a leap, like a tristana jump (but with less range). This would give Illaoi that "agency" that is granted to other champs. The summoner spell flash on Illaoi is something specifically to reposition you into good ult range, so why not give her a little hop so that she may be able to use flash in a larger variety of ways?

Jackom1Sep 10, 201710 votes

So you're saying that, despite her high damage and tankiness, she is reliably kitable. You're saying that she's a good juggernaut design, while saying that she's a bad juggernaut design.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 10, 201755 votes

OP is saying her weaknesses are so easily exploitable that its kinda ridiculous

Jackom1Sep 10, 20176 votes

Well, she may not be LCS material, but OP is far from being right.

Illaoi is meant to destroy almost everything in melee, but is naturally countered by whoever is ranged or has dashes. And late game she's as team reliant as almost any other juggernaut in order to do her damage.

If anything, we need more juggernauts like her and urgot, who are actually the best examples of the class

AFilthyCaitMainSep 10, 201726 votes

You dont have to be in the LCS to know how to deal with her. Literally anyone that knows about her can instantly shut her down in lane, then proceed to starve her throughout the game. Shes too ult reliant imo, since people can just walk away, now shes pretty useless.

SpecterVonBarenSep 10, 201729 votes

All you have to do is listen to her voice lines while lanning with her, she literally tells you the best way to beat her.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 201727 votes

she is a teacher, after all

FireDrizzleSep 10, 201717 votes

"And late game she's as team reliant as almost any other juggernaut in order to do her damage. "

Her cast times are too long for her to actually do anything lategame much of the time and in the time it takes her to cast Q how much more did an adc do with auto attacks? And not to mention the E... I'm surprised riot would give such a recent champ such long cast times. Late game She relies on her team to win without her doing anything really.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20172 votes

because she's a mid game splitpusher, not a late game 5v5

ChaddyFantomeSep 10, 201717 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fLVbQAEl,comment-id=00060000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-10T20:35:18.821+0000)

because she's a mid game splitpusher, not a late game 5v5

Midgame splitpushing has historically been the thing you make shitty or useless members do when they can't fulfill their intended role.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

and what is her intended role, do tell :)

ChaddyFantomeSep 10, 201713 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fLVbQAEl,comment-id=0006000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-10T22:11:59.308+0000)

and what is her intended role, do tell :)

A late game 5v5, funnily enough.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

and you have.. what exactly to support this? bruisers don't scale into late game. especially not one who has situational, map-based power and wants to fight around that.

illaoi is a mid-game champion by design, and she's very good at forcing a 1vX in side lanes

AFilthyCaitMainSep 11, 20172 votes

Illaoi isnt a bruiser????????????????????

Mens Hair ClubSep 11, 20172 votes

yes she is

AFilthyCaitMainSep 11, 20171 votes

Oh wait yeah youre right, I must have been not think when i posted that.

Mens Hair ClubSep 11, 20172 votes

daddy forgives you

iLLzSep 11, 20174 votes

she is a juggernaught not a bruiser and bruiser is a really gneric term for a play style there is no reason why a bruiser cant be a late game champ

AFilthyCaitMainSep 11, 20173 votes

bruisers = fighters. juggs are a fighter subclass

ChaddyFantomeSep 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fLVbQAEl,comment-id=000600000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-10T23:46:45.718+0000)

and you have.. what exactly to support this? bruisers don't scale into late game. especially not one who has situational, map-based power and wants to fight around that.

illaoi is a mid-game champion by design, and she's very good at forcing a 1vX in side lanes

First off, plenty of them scale into late game. Juggernauts in general have potent mid to late game power since they statcheck so well. Just look at Jax, Nasus, Irelia, etc.

Secondly, illaoi's E and R are both centered around her both fighting as many people as possible, and working with her team for picks.

Iota ThetaSep 12, 20171 votes

Leave Jax and Irelia out. They aren't actual Juggernauts and weaken your argument in my opinion. Yeah they statcheck, but they aren't juggernauts due to their CC and mobility.

ChaddyFantomeNov 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fLVbQAEl,comment-id=00060000000000010000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2017-09-12T23:37:48.970+0000)

Leave Jax and Irelia out. They aren't actual Juggernauts and weaken your argument in my opinion. Yeah they statcheck, but they aren't juggernauts due to their CC and mobility.

I'm coming back after a few months and I am so confused as to why I listed them. Wtf lmaO

LexLutheran87Sep 11, 20177 votes

Different strokes for different folks. She is my go to when I get assigned top. She is brutal when you use her to flank into a fight. Wait for the enemy to commit and then flash R. She can dish damage so quickly in the group fight.

She is also the queen of defense. Her wave clear is Godly for stalling when necessary.

Yes she needs somebody else to pack CC... But so does a certain metal man... Just saying

woodvsmurphSep 10, 20176 votes

Easily avoidable? She's got a bigger hit box on tentacles than morg q before they nerfed the width. She has the same ranged harass as jayce gate+shockblast. Is it easy to dodge 1 tentacle? Sure. 2? Not too bad. When she lands spirit pull and ults? Guaranteed you lose 80% of your hp and grow a bunch of tentacles for her - and that's IF you walk out of her ult. If you stay? You die. Doesn't matter if you are a level ahead, have rank 2 ult, and are an early game lane bully; you lose. Hell, she can miss her spirit pull and she still wins. She needs a redesign - not simply a buff or something. Her power is too centered on spirit pull and ult.

CowseedSep 10, 20177 votes

Illoai stealing souls in 2017. Now that's a meme. If Illoai is bullying you your biggest counterplay is just walking away. It's not like other Juggernauts that can hold you in place for a while when they get in range. If you dodge Illaoi's soul sucking move, which is very easy to dodge, she legit can not do jack shit.

If you play against 10 Illaoi's you've pretty much almost seen 'em all :/

RankOneUgandaSep 11, 20175 votes

at the same time she is one of the safer juggernauts because she has decent ranged farm and ability to bully people without being in melee range

NatakeSep 11, 20175 votes

I think 2 tweaks to her ult could give it the sticking power it needs.

Give it a slow. Let the slow scale like the tentacles, where it's like a 30% slow on one person, 40% on two, etc.
It's called Leap of Faith? Let her leap. Tapping R gives you the normal ult. If you hold it, you'll start channeling it and a tentacle picks you up and with the awesome might of Nagakaboros, it flings you like a Zac E and you ult at the landing location. That's just aesthetic, it could also just be a sweet Hulk style jump. But it should give her SOME way to get in there, because Flash is NOT enough to get you to the center of a team. And for a champion whose GOD is MOVEMENT??? She does a great job punishing people who stand still, but she's too stationary.

ChuShoeSep 11, 20175 votes

STOP INSULTING MY HENTAI GODDESS.

QuephaSep 10, 20174 votes

Mordekaiser seems much worse to me, especially in the 'agency' department.

At least Illaoi can try to land her pull to make something happen, plus she has a short dash on her w to give her some mobility.

Malicious MetalSep 10, 20176 votes

Mordekaiser's damage isn't restricted to an area (being close to her tentacles) He has more reliable front up burst and can move around freely without losing out on damage. He also has 3 700ish range Spells and often gets Rylais and Gunblade.

PePsiLemoNNSep 10, 20173 votes

Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility.

Oh hey she like ... exactly fits the definition of juggernauts.

Malicious MetalSep 10, 201713 votes

Hard time getting to the backline=/= relying 100% on the enemy being retarded

ChaddyFantomeSep 10, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Oh hey she like ... exactly fits the definition of juggernauts.

Missing the point there, jim.

When Garen, Darius, Udyr etc get on you, they rek your shit. When Illaoi is on top of you, the enemy only gets rekt if they are dumb enough to stay there.