New sona is the definition of an enchantress

KONO RUBICK DA·Jul 13, 2016·41 votes·3,839 views

(sorry for my english)

Before this patch, sona was all about poking and and bursting someone when they're low or bursting them if you had lichbane+hextech+luden echo.

Now, new sona has amazing low cooldown, her Q,and W cooldown is something like 4 seconds in late game. Think about it, she lost a lot of burst (-40 dmg on her Q, -10/20/30 damage on her Q after ranking ulti) but she can spam E to give mobility and W to heal/shield, because they are so POWERFUL now, i'm not afraid to go into the fight and shield everyone because now the shield was increased, combined with masteries and the shield can make you winning the game. not only this, but spaming her spells will make you able to use diminuendo which is really powerfull right now, and tempo which can slow a bruiser for 2 seconds this is the definition of an enchantress, sona shouldn't be a burst mage,

is there anything that needs to be done right now? well her Q in late game falls off really hard, the damage AND the aura. If you're in late game you better not use your Q to save mana for E/W (who are on 4 seconds cooldown). you use Q only if you need 1 passive stack and W or E is on cooldown. Maybe makes the aura physical damage instead of magic damage.

thank you riot for this.

94 Comments

ltmetalJul 13, 201611 votes

Additionally, one of the current problems in this season is damage creep. I'm glad to see characters rebalanced to grant things to their team other than damage.

MalfiniJul 13, 20167 votes

Well, Sona has become more of a support by reducing her damage output and increasing the effectiveness of her heals and shields.

And now she is a real primary support not a "support" or secondary role support.

PunkkeeJul 13, 20165 votes

Annie item 3027 item 3285 item 3152 "support" Lux item 3089 item 3157 "support"

MalfiniJul 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

"support" "support"

{quoted}

played a sona game earlier; one shotted their adc after building 3 items

Please don't give Riot any ideas to nerf her to the ground.

QuindecJul 13, 20161 votes

played a sona game earlier; one shotted their adc after building 3 items

MalfiniJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"support" "support"

{quoted}

played a sona game earlier; one shotted their adc after building 3 items

Don't give Riot any ideas to nerf Sona to the ground.

ACENOXJul 13, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rubick x Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fJoEsYyZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-13T15:11:26.500+0000)

sona shouldn't be a burst mage,

Yes, of course. Sona doing damage is forbidden, right riot?

KONO RUBICK DAJul 13, 201620 votes

it's not about not being allowed to do damage.

it's more that sona should increase the power of her allies through music, which means through auras. and this was missing since.... forever?

sheldonbunnyJul 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rubick x Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fJoEsYyZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-13T15:28:49.732+0000)

it's not about not being allowed to do damage.

it's more that sona should increase the power of her allies through music, which means through auras. and this was missing since.... forever?

It still means a previous play style got gutted in the process. She was an amazing lane bully that could even deal with under prepared/passive tanks in lane.

I foresee me not liking this change like others riot has done to my favorite champs. Just this time they hit my first and most favorite one.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 13, 20161 votes

they increased the damage of her passive by 30 or 20 but it's only in late game yea.

sheldonbunnyJul 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rubick x Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fJoEsYyZ,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-13T15:56:31.874+0000)

they increased the damage of her passive by 30 or 20 but it's only in late game yea.

Therein lies the issue. She was a bully even pre 6 in the right occasions. I played other supports when I wanted utility. Sona was always one of my more aggressive damage supports. This definitely throws a wrench in the works.

I'll just have to get the hands on time with her and find a workable build. Hopefully she's not had her aggressive play style nerfed into the ground.

VerdadeJul 13, 20161 votes

She shoudln't be allowed to have such good poke/burst AND decent sustain Also, poking with her Q requires 0 skill to execute

SnugglePuggle94Jul 14, 20161 votes

Graves would like to speak with you about that

VerdadeJul 14, 20161 votes

So if there's another broken champion it automatically means it's okay for Sona? At least Graves has to interact with enemies to get his sustain, unlike Sona who can just stay back and spam heal

SnugglePuggle94Jul 14, 20161 votes

Yea she can spam but then go oom in about two to three spells early game because her heal costs the most mana. Graves can heal practically his whole health in two shots if he's building lifesteal. Anyway, I was just comparing her to him because he's an ADC that bursts people pretty quick, is tanky as fuck and can heal quickly. But I can also see how he's a bit different too since Sona has a built in sustain and he has to build it from items.

Battlecast SonaJul 13, 20162 votes

actually with the increased range (15-235 instead of 13-192) it's likely that it's better around mid-game (level 11 or so) with the difference between pre-change and post-change getting larger from there. I doubt they kept all her early game damage numbers the same and only let the changes affect lategame.

LankPantsJul 14, 20163 votes

She was an amazing lane bully that could even deal with under prepared/passive tanks in lane.

So what you're saying is that she dealt well with bad players? No tank should play passively into Sona. All you need to do to beat a Sona as a tank is play aggressively into her, she has no tools to deal with it.

sheldonbunnyJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So what you're saying is that she dealt well with bad players? No tank should play passively into Sona. All you need to do to beat a Sona as a tank is play aggressively into her, she has no tools to deal with it.

And you're absolutely right about that. Tanks should be aggressive. Sona is weakest up close. Not all of us are at an elo where the tanks know better though thankfully.

{quoted}

It's better. Her early game went from 'already garbage' to 'slightly more garbage'. Once you hit a certain level of terrible early game it really doesn't matter if you get slightly worse.

Into the mid-late game your damage, healing and speedboosts are all way up. If you can survive and farm you'll be incredibly impactful.

I'd recommend running AD reds and starting D-Blade on Sona mid. While it sounds slightly counter-intuitive it does allow you to farm far better and trade about as well since your AP ratios are pretty bad until you start building up items like Lichbane and Revolver to help.

It's an interesting idea. I myself don't play Sona mid, but was curious for those that do.

Either way, my old playstyle is holding up roughly the same as always. I get away with ap aggressive support. That's all I needed to know.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

I disagree with Sona being an "aggressive AP support", at least without precisions.

She was a lane bully with powerful poke, but as soon as team-fights started she had to switch to a more utility-focused play-style. I know that most people built Lich Bane on her, but I said many times and I still think that it's a trap, and not her optimal build. There are better mage supports if you really want to play aggressive (Zyra, Brand, Annie, etc.), and there are better items if you want to play utility (Ardent Censer, Athene's, Banner of Command, even Luden is better than Lich Bane).

EDIT: and as far as the new version is concerned, they very slightly reduced her poke power in lane, but not so much. And they incredibly buffed her utility in late game. Imho, this change is a HUUUUGE buff to Sona's "proper" playstyle, and a nerf to something that was already sub-optimal and kinda cheesy. So I'm really happy with the change.

LankPantsJul 14, 20161 votes

There's two basic ways you can play Sona now, as an aggressive poke based support (the Q build) or as an aura based utility support (aura build). They're both at least playable now.

Sona also fills a separate niche to all of the champs you just listed anyway. None of them are really poke based and none of them have any sustain or utility outside of their CC. Sona's niche is closer to Karma, they both bring AOE shields, poke and an AOE speed boost.

As far as I see it Sona only really has one must buy item right now and that's EotW. Past that you can go more utility or more damage and there's probably a time and place for both.

You also really shouldn't ignore that Sona's AP ratios got mega buffed on this patch either, even if AP heavy builds were sub-optimal before (which I'd disagree with) it's certainly worth trying them again now. They also cannot have really got worse, so at a base they're already not bad.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

There's two basic ways you can play Sona now, as an aggressive poke based support (the Q build) or as an aura based utility support (aura build).

I disagree that there is 2 ways to play Sona. The best way to play her is to use both these playstyle you mentioned but at different points in the game. You should play as a poke Support in early game, that's far better than maxing the utilities first, AND you should transition to a utility-based play style in mid-late game, because even with an aggressive itemization, she's still a sub-par aggressive support in late game compared to what else is available.

I didn't say Annie or Zyra fill the same niche, I said they were better aggressive supports in late game, if that's what your team wants/needs. Sona is in the same niche as Janna/Nami, and yes, Karma to some extent, but Karma damage doesn't fall off as hard in late game, so it's actually a good option to go aggressive on Karma. It's not on Sona.

My build in 6.13 was EotW, boots, Censer/Athene's, an Aegis upgrade (in no particular order). Occasionally, I would build Luden (that's still better than Lich-bane in 95% of cases) or a selfish defense item instead of Aegis, or as a last item if the game is long enough, but I would never go for heavy AP instead of Athene's/Censer, and I won't either in 6.14.

(Of course, there are a few exceptions, and it's probably best to max the heal first and play safe against a very hard lane, for instance, or go for Lich-bane if you are 3-0 at 10 minutes, but that's not generally true. )

Oh and btw, I'm talking only about Sona sup. Sona mid should probably go for Lich-bane and heavy AP, but that's another matter entirely.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

snip

going to try this, thank you!!

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

[Hum, this turned into a longer wall of text than I expected x) You can add me ingame if you want to chat ;) ]

Lol, I'm kinda flattered. I checked your profile and I see that you're in Plat right now when I'm just in Gold, and I'm preaching a play style that is very different from the "common wisdom" about Sona, so I would've expected a dismissal ^^'

But yeah, I honestly think that the apparent synergy between Sona's kit and Lich-bane is only a trap and that there are far better items for her.

If you want more details: I generally start spellthief + mana regen charm, rarely with pink ward + 1 potion. The mana regen charm + the mana regen mastery allows to basically spam heal in lane if you need, against a hard lane, so no need to take potions. The pink is against stuff like shaco/eve.

Your basic pattern in lane is: close in to poke with your blue and shield the retaliation with your green -- but only if both you and your ADC are not full life, it's important to optimize your mana efficiency. If you/your ADC make a mistake and take a bad trade / are chunked for a large portion of your life, slow down on the poke and keep mana for heal. If you spend at least the same amount of mana for your green spell as for your blue, take 2 points in each, otherwise max blue. Usually, try to put a point in pink level 4 or 5, but I'm often greedy and put another point in green/blue and only take pink level 7 or 8.

Buy gold item upgrade and sightstone ASAP, and basic boots, but you don't really need T2 boots, and you don't really need to combine the gold item and the sightstone until you need to free the slot. If you have 125g left after a back (including buying a pink ward ;) ), buy a faery charm (you need 4 of them in total, so you'll always find something to do with it). Once you have gold item/SS, you can move on to mid-tiers components. If you're ahead, Codex is great; if you need mana regen, Idol is great; if you are behind in your lane, Chalice is OK; and sometimes you need to rush an Aegis if the midlaner is snow-balling and roaming a lot.

After that, complete the 3 items in whatever order seems appropriate (Censer/Athene's/Aegis upgrade). If I can get away with it, I really love Banner of Command (I also build ZZ'rot on mots top laners when I go top), but sadly the team really needs a Solari Locket more often than not.

Once teams start to group, you can poke with your blue if it's safe, but it's no longer your top priority. Instead, focus on: 1/ vision, vision, vision; 2/ spamming your auras in team-fights, don't try to get near the carries to hit them with your blue, it's not worth the risk, your main "damage output" will be your blue aura and your green aura applying the Censer passive to your whole team; 3/ wave manipulation, especially if you bought Banner. If you didn't buy Banner, you cannot execute wave manipulation yourself (Sona has absolutely no wave-clear, it's her main weakness in Mid), but it's still your job as the support to watch the minimap and to look for opportunities and to communicate them to your carries.

(Digression about the "damage output": Ardent Censer is even better on Sona than on Soraka. You can basically give a permanent +15% AS to your whole team, +30 on-hit damage. It's much better than it looks, almost as powerful as a reversed Frozen Heart Aura, and especially with stuff like Yi/Vayne/Kog'maw/Warwick/Shyvana/Jax/Irelia/etc. Vayne and Kog also love laning with a Sona who can basically sustain them to infinity while they farm, and distract the enemies with her poke.)

At this point, you need to combine sightstone and frostfang to free up your last slot, and you can move onto pretty much whatever you want, but keep in mind that you need at least 250 AP total for Lichbane's procs to be better than Luden's, and Luden also gives more raw AP to improve your heal/shield/Speed buff, and more %MS. Sometimes I go for Randuin or Zhonya if I want Armor, sometimes Frozen Heart if the enemy team has lots of AS based champs (but you don't need the mana and you're wasting the CDR, so it's only if the team really, REALLY needs the aura). Anyway, we're talking 6th item for a Support, so it's pretty rare.

**Elixir: **blue is better in 95% of cases, but once in a while, you can take the orange for the 300 HP + tenacity.

**Boots: **I usually upgrade them last, even after the elixir. I'm already at 45% CDR so I don't want CDR boots, and in late-game I'm not here for damage so I don't really care about Sorc, especially given that your blue aura benefit from your allies penetration, not your own. Nothing is clearly good, so you can take whatever you want for this specific game. Defense boots if you die too fast, Mobility if you want to roam a lot to ward the map (but you have your pink spell anyway), and sometimes Sorc if you don't want anything else. Two exceptions: if we crushed our lane and I want to roam a lot in early, I take mobility boots, and if we are snow-balling and I want to double down on that, I take Sorc, because that's the best/cheapest way to boost your damage without investing in heavy AP items.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lol, I'm kinda flattered. I checked your profile and I see that you're in Plat right now when I'm just in Gold, and I'm preaching a play style that is very different from the "common wisdom" about Sona, so I would've expected a dismissal ^^'

i was master last season :^) just stopped playing ranked this season cause of dynamic queue and i'm playing on NA with board friends, also enjoying dota2. i found your idea good because i never thought about transition.

{quoted}

If you want more details: I generally start spellthief + mana regen charm, rarely with pink ward + 1 potion. The mana regen charm + the mana regen mastery allows to basically spam heal in lane if you need, against a hard lane, so no need to take potions. The pink is against stuff like shaco/eve.

will try but i never had mana problem in early game, and you need hp potions because to poke you need to be in the range of the adc and you will take damage. I guess it will depend on the match up.

{quoted}

Your basic pattern in lane is: close in to poke with your blue and shield the retaliation with your green -- but only if both you and your ADC are not full life, it's important to optimize your mana efficiency. If you/your ADC make a mistake and take a bad trade / are chunked for a large portion of your life, slow down on the poke and keep mana for heal. If you spend at least the same amount of mana for your green spell as for your blue, take 2 points in each, otherwise max blue. Usually, try to put a point in pink level 4 or 5, but I'm often greedy and put another point in green/blue and only take pink level 7 or 8.

yes, one problem with sona is how your adc uses your heal/shield, because it costs a lot

{quoted}

At this point, you need to combine sightstone and frostfang to free up your last slot,

also a point that i didn't think about it.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

you need hp potions because to poke you need to be in the range of the adc and you will take damage.

Well, give it a try, but from my experience, the mana fuel your heal, and it's ultimately better than the potions. Of course you can take potions, be more mindful with your mana, and it works too, but mana is more versatile than straight HP, so I prefer the charm start. It also allows you to cover for a bad ADC making mistakes, whereas you cannot give him your own potions.

yes, one problem with sona is how your adc uses your heal/shield, because it costs a lot

Again from my experience, if you make sure to use the 2 heals and 1 of the shields, it's enough to get out on top.

Two details that I didn't mention previously.

First, very important, Windspeaker as a keystone. Thunderlord is the same deal as Lichbane: looks attractive in the beginning, but ultimately hamper your targeted role in later parts of the game. Even in lane, Windspeaker increases your mana efficiency (re: the charm start). And in team-fights, it is 10 times better, due to the fact that it has no cooldown and applies to your whole team instead of only 1 target.

Second, I mentioned that boots aren't really important, so another option is to completely sell them and buy something like a Luden's (if you haven't already) or a Righteous Glory. But it's very minor, we're talking 1 every 100 games here...

LankPantsJul 14, 20161 votes

Sona is in the same niche as Janna/Nami, and yes, Karma to some extent, but Karma damage doesn't fall off as hard in late game, so it's actually a good option to go aggressive on Karma. It's not on Sona.

Sona's damage only falls off into the late game if you ignore it. At this point her Q has a very high AP/second ratio. You're Q deals very significant DPS when you build AP now as well as being a poke spell. That's before mentioning every ratio on W got buffed, the heal, the shield and the powerchord. An AP built Sona can spam out surprisingly large heals and shields on a 3 second CD and can keep a target debuffed with a powerful W powerchord for a majority of a fight.

You should definitely try a more AP centric build a couple of times before you write it off, as I mentioned it got buffed in every single area.

Occasionally, I would build Luden (that's still better than Lich-bane in 95% of cases)

Lichbane is always going to be better than Luden's in any realistic situation. You can legit just mathcraft this out because the items do basically the same thing.

Luden's gives 100AP, 10%MS and 100+(10%AP) Lich gives 80AP, 7%MS, 10%CDR, 250 mana and 57(I assumed lv 11)+(50%AP)

Their stats are comparable, sometimes you don't want the 10% CDR from Lich but there's no penalty for going over so it's OK, the 250 mana is worth a lot considering how much Sona spams however. Past that the equivalence point on the item's damage is at 122.5 AP, basically Runes+EotW+Lichbane, any other items you buy push this even further into LBs favour. Lichbane can also be proced far more readily. It's all-round just a better item for Sona as long as you plan to use your passive.

Of course, there are a few exceptions, and it's probably best to max the heal first and play safe against a very hard lane,

If you're plan is to play out the lane in that manner you should just pick Nami. When you rank up your heal as Nami you gain damage too so you can actually trade in lane. When you rank up your heal as Sona you're stuck with a zero damage Q.

Oh and btw, I'm talking only about Sona sup. Sona mid should probably go for Lich-bane and heavy AP, but that's another matter entirely.

While I play mid Sona every time I say Sona without specifically saying 'mid Sona' I'm talking about support Sona. On the rare occasion I do support I almost always pick Sona, it's been a long time, I hate the role but I do have an understanding of how Sona's kit works to the extent where I can play her mid and not lose my team the game instantly.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

Luden vs Lichbane math: It's all-round just a better item for Sona as long as you plan to use your passive.

You took my quote out of context. In the build I detailed just before the sentence you quoted, you can see I already have plenty of Mana Regen and 45% CDR, and more than 120 AP, but not by much, so I value the raw AP and the %MS on Luden much more than the useless mana/CDR, and the 2 procs are still of comparable values. Plus, as I explained, my goal is not to deal damage, so no, I don't really plan to AA the carries and use my passive, except for a diminuendo on a Diver/Assassin.

In a different build, sure, Lichbane would be better. In my build with my playstyle, no.

What AP Sona can do

Thing is, Censer/Athene's Sona can do almost as good for half the price. And as a Support, you have less gold and less slot to benefit from your AP ratios. I admit your analysis is true, and yet I'm still convinced that AP Sona is a bad idea when you play Support. And don't forget the fact that when you play mid, you can at least expect a modicum of help from your team, so you can take a little more risks to apply your power chords/blue-empowered AA, whereas as a Support, every one will let you die without a second thought.

That being said, I wanted to try a full AP Sona mid, and I'm interested in what build you use.

If you're plan is to play out the lane in that manner you should just pick Nami.

Of course, and Soraka would be even better, but sometimes you have to pick without knowing their botlane, and you can be counter picked, or your ADC is bad, and you have to make the best you can out of a bad situation. I'm talking about exceptions, I don't say that it happens often. But it happens. My point was just to indicate that my guidelines above where of course not absolute.

LankPantsJul 14, 20161 votes

so no, I don't really plan to AA the carries and use my passive, except for a diminuendo on a Diver/Assassin.

Then you're wasting about 1/4 of your kit.

That being said, I wanted to try a full AP Sona mid, and I'm interested in what build you use.

Mana, in short. I just pick up a lot of components to make myself functional as quickly as I can and they all happen to build into highly synergistic items so I just build them up.

I normally start with item 1055 , because item 1056 really doesn't help much early, Blade at least allows you to CS.

After that I build up item 3070 , item 3057 & item 3145 because with those 3 items you can start dealing damage and have enough mana to stay in lane.

Then item 3100 > item 3165 > item 3040 > item 3030 or item 3152 to wrap up the core items

Finish up with item 3089 , item 3157 , item 3135 or item 3285 . If you're in a 60 minute game you can sell (or not buy because of E) boots for Luden's and buy another one of these items.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

Then you're wasting about 1/4 of your kit.

1/4 seems like an exaggeration to me, especially given that I don't have the AP to make said part of my kit really powerful.

Re: the build. I would've thought Tear into RoA, what do you think about that? Then Lichbane, of course, Morello to round up CDR, and same as you for last item, a choice among Rabadon, Zhonya, Luden. Not Void, though, not enough raw AP to really boost the heal/speed buff, I think.

So basically: what do you think about a RoA instead of an hextech item, and a different build order to accommodate it?

LankPantsJul 14, 20161 votes

Tear into RoA is really slow. You basically do nothing for the first 20 minutes of the game if you do it.

The reason why I like Revolver is because it allows you to start being useful earlier. When you have Sheen and Revolver your Q-AA deals quite a sum of damage.

You probably could build RoA but you'd be relying entirely on your team not to fall behind early because you won't be contributing very much at all.

Void tends to be good in scenarios where you're really far ahead. If you get a snowball going and go Void/A Hextec item you can deal a fairly substantial amount of AOE with the Hextec>ult before bursting a priority target with your Q and Passive.

sheldonbunnyJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with Sona being an "aggressive AP support", at least without precisions.

She was a lane bully with powerful poke, but as soon as team-fights started she had to switch to a more utility-focused play-style. I know that most people built Lich Bane on her, but I said many times and I still think that it's a trap, and not her optimal build. There are better mage supports if you really want to play aggressive (Zyra, Brand, Annie, etc.), and there are better items if you want to play utility (Ardent Censer, Athene's, Banner of Command, even Luden is better than Lich Bane).

EDIT: and as far as the new version is concerned, they very slightly reduced her poke power in lane, but not so much. And they incredibly buffed her utility in late game. Imho, this change is a HUUUUGE buff to Sona's "proper" playstyle, and a nerf to something that was already sub-optimal and kinda cheesy. So I'm really happy with the change.

Considering I was getting A+ to S+ last night on a "suboptimal" build, I'll stick to it, but thanks for your two cents. I'm happy to report lane bully Sona is alive and well for any seasoned Sona player wishing to be aggressive. It's not just the build but the mentality to go with it. I've seen so many passive Sona players lose because I'm willing to exploit their unwillingness to rip my lane apart.

The beauty of it is there is more than one way to play support, let alone Sona. Just live and let live.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

Did you actually read my comment? Because I did say she was a "lane bully with powerful poke" and that they only "very slightly nerfed" the damage-focused build. So of course it's still alive and well, I never contested that.

What I did say, on the other hand, is that utility-focused Sona was better in 6.13, and that it's even better now, because most of the changes improve this build even more, so it's comparatively a worse idea to go for a damage focused build. And I stand by it.

You can have success with sub-optimal builds. That just means you would have even more success with a better build.

sheldonbunnyJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Did you actually read my comment? Because I did say she was a "lane bully with powerful poke" and that they only "very slightly nerfed" the damage-focused build. So of course it's still alive and well, I never contested that.

What I did say, on the other hand, is that utility-focused Sona was better in 6.13, and that it's even better now, because most of the changes improve this build even more, so it's comparatively a worse idea to go for a damage focused build. And I stand by it.

You can have success with sub-optimal builds. That just means you would have even more success with a better build.

One, I've gone your route and for only my games gave witnessed a decline in wins. Two, it is not emotionally satisfying to me to play her that way. Three, I never said you said lane bully Sona wasn't alive and well. That was simply an aside I was mentioning pertaining to my own personal quest to see where she stood.

As I already stated, there is more than one way to play. Difference is I have zero issue with others playing differently. I go my way and they go theirs.

DeathBurstJul 14, 20161 votes

Well, for sure they can play differently. If that means Sona is statistically doing worse than she should, and that as a consequence she is slightly over-tuned, I would be stupid to complain. But I like to share knowledge, and to theorycraft with other people. And that's what I did in this thread, and despite what insights LankPants provided, I'm still convinced that utility-focused Sona is better.

Now you can disagree and play her Lich-bane full AP, even in support position, I don't really care, you're only making my life easier. ;)

Cheers o/

sheldonbunnyJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, for sure they can play differently. If that means Sona is statistically doing worse than she should, and that as a consequence she is slightly over-tuned, I would be stupid to complain. But I like to share knowledge, and to theorycraft with other people. And that's what I did in this thread, and despite what insights LankPants provided, I'm still convinced that utility-focused Sona is better.

Now you can disagree and play her Lich-bane full AP, even in support position, I don't really care, you're only making my life easier. ;)

Cheers o/

Your ego is astounding. Numbers don't complete a picture. If you want statistics, statically ap Sona does better at lower elo than support build. Why? Because lower elo players are inconsistent on skill level. Why would I put myself at the mercy of four randoms without any backup plan? I do that enough as Soraka. Sona is not nor will ever be my passive support.

Now at high elo play that's an entirely different animal. Issue is the majority of league players are on the low end and will not rise that high. Your theorycrafting is fine and dandy for the minority, but hypotheticals will not help everyone.

It is only suboptimal with a team that can carry. That is a hard wager, and I don't gamble. So thank you for encouraging the support build Sona players. Makes my life easier killing them easily. :)

DeathBurstJul 15, 20161 votes

What the hell does my ego has to do in this discussion?

That aside, of course champs able to solo-carry do better in lower ELO. But then, if that's what one wants to do, they should play Zyra or Annie or Brand. AP Sona Support raw potential power is (I believe) inferior to Utility Sona Support. By playing AP Sona Sup, one only hurts themselves, compared to the level they could achieve with either Zyra/Annie/etc. or Utility Sona, depending on their preferred playstyle.

Of course, I may be wrong. But I have seen no indication of this thus far, except your claim that you actually tried both and got lower perfs with utility-based build. I would suggest to try truly aggressive supports, and it doesn't convinced me that the AP build is better.

For the records, I started playing Sona full AP, simply because Lich-bane and Luden are actually in her recommended items from Riot. And then I did my own tests and slowly transitioned to more utility-focused builds. The last straw was the new itemization, with both new Athene and new Censer being incredibly good on her. In 6.13, I was 100% convinced that utility-builds were THE way to go. In 6.14, I need to do more testing, but I'm pretty sure it's still the same, or even more pronounced.

sheldonbunnyJul 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What the hell does my ego has to do in this discussion?

That aside, of course champs able to solo-carry do better in lower ELO. But then, if that's what one wants to do, they should play Zyra or Annie or Brand. AP Sona Support raw potential power is (I believe) inferior to Utility Sona Support. By playing AP Sona Sup, one only hurts themselves, compared to the level they could achieve with either Zyra/Annie/etc. or Utility Sona, depending on their preferred playstyle.

Of course, I may be wrong. But I have seen no indication of this thus far, except your claim that you actually tried both and got lower perfs with utility-based build. I would suggest to try truly aggressive supports, and it doesn't convinced me that the AP build is better.

For the records, I started playing Sona full AP, simply because Lich-bane and Luden are actually in her recommended items from Riot. And then I did my own tests and slowly transitioned to more utility-focused builds. The last straw was the new itemization, with both new Athene and new Censer being incredibly good on her. In 6.13, I was 100% convinced that utility-builds were THE way to go. In 6.14, I need to do more testing, but I'm pretty sure it's still the same, or even more pronounced.

I also am mastery 7 on Zyra and working my way through karma, so thanks but I already do play other ap supports as well as plenty of utility supports. I think you've missed the point entirely. You're so focused on the math you forget why certain mains play champs. We simply love the character. Sona is simply my first love and has stayed my personal favorite. Hell, she's what pushed me into league.

I've checked you out. You're more a top main with your 400k in garen and 100k on Sion. Have faith that a primary support main might just understand the entire role just as well as you do. Not like I'll be giving you advice in top lane. Not to mention I've not even tried to tell you your way is inferior.

I could care less how you play her. I could tell long back you're the brick wall type. That's fine. Besides, screw optimal. Some of us just play a champion we love despite odds. The point of anything in life is passion. Sona and supporting is my passion when it has to do with league. Often enough it's the things at the worst odds that are worth striving for.

You can go enjoy your passion for math and numbers. ;)

DeathBurstJul 15, 20161 votes

Why are you at the same time criticizing me for thinking only about """math""", and taking things so personally? You should realize that when I say "this is not optimal", it's not intended as a personal critic, it's not the same as saying "your ways are inferior".

And I'm not the brickwall type, but I'll admit I missed your point. Thing is, I'm the one who initiated the discussion and sent you a first comment, and my point has never changed since then: Sona is not a good aggressive AP support, past laning phase. So if you don't want to debate this question at all, you have to make it clear earlier. And, I'm sorry for not changing my mind, but damn, you just said yourself "screw optimal, that's not why I play." Well, it's perfectly your right, but you have to admit, that's not a good argument to convince me that the AP build is indeed optimal.

And finally, if you made the effort to check me, at least do it properly. I still have played more Support games than you, through Season 4 and 5. My top 3 champs in Season 5 were Garen, Sona and Braum, that's 2 supports in the top 3. Even now, and despite maining only Top in S6, Sona and Braum are still 3rd and 4th in my champions with most Mastery Points, and I have almost 100K and level 6 on Sona. Through Season4 and 5, I also played quite a lot of Janna, Thresh and Leona, just keep in mind Champ Mastery didn't exist back then. And if you check my recent Normals games, you can see I still play Support in Normal. So yeah, I have even more experience Top and I'm a Top main, because I just play a lot (too much, some would say), but I'm perfectly qualified to have this discussion with you, I know what I'm talking about just as well as you.

DeathBurstJul 15, 20161 votes

(Actually, I'm starting to play Support even in Ranked again, now that Secondary sup doesn't mean sup 90% of the time anymore. I queue Top/Sup instead of Top/Jungle, and I manage to get Top half the time, and I'm perfectly happy with that, because I'm a far better Sup than Jungle, and I only played Jungle just because I didn't want to play Sup 90% of the time.)

sheldonbunnyJul 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why are you at the same time criticizing me for thinking only about """math""", and taking things so personally? You should realize that when I say "this is not optimal", it's not intended as a personal critic, it's not the same as saying "your ways are inferior".

And I'm not the brickwall type, but I'll admit I missed your point. Thing is, I'm the one who initiated the discussion and sent you a first comment, and my point has never changed since then: Sona is not a good aggressive AP support, past laning phase. So if you don't want to debate this question at all, you have to make it clear earlier. And, I'm sorry for not changing my mind, but damn, you just said yourself "screw optimal, that's not why I play." Well, it's perfectly your right, but you have to admit, that's not a good argument to convince me that the AP build is indeed optimal.

And finally, if you made the effort to check me, at least do it properly. I still have played more Support games than you, through Season 4 and 5. My top 3 champs in Season 5 were Garen, Sona and Braum, that's 2 supports in the top 3. Even now, and despite maining only Top in S6, Sona and Braum are still 3rd and 4th in my champions with most Mastery Points, and I have almost 100K and level 6 on Sona. Through Season4 and 5, I also played quite a lot of Janna, Thresh and Leona, just keep in mind Champ Mastery didn't exist back then. And if you check my recent Normals games, you can see I still play Support in Normal. So yeah, I have even more experience Top and I'm a Top main, because I just play a lot (too much, some would say), but I'm perfectly qualified to have this discussion with you, I know what I'm talking about just as well as you.

(Actually, I'm starting to play Support even in Ranked again, now that Secondary sup doesn't mean sup 90% of the time anymore. I queue Top/Sup instead of Top/Jungle, and I manage to get Top half the time, and I'm perfectly happy with that, because I'm a far better Sup than Jungle, and I only played Jungle just because I didn't want to play Sup 90% of the time.)

I am and am not taking it personally. You've in no way hurt my feelings, upset me, etc but as stated I am a passionate person in life as well as a support. To deny that would be denying myself. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my explanation of passion in the role as anything else.

Additionally you only spoke about my history in ranked. I've been playing far longer than that, unless you're one of those that suddenly looks down their nose at normals. So you didn't really get the measure of me at all. You also made my point. You aren't a support main if you so easily moved to main top this season. Some of us are consistent and loyal to the role. You simply wish to be optimal. It's understandable for someone who obviously was trying to climb ranked.

The point is there would be no trick2G, boxbox, gosu and countless other specialists in a specific champion if people passionate about certain champions did not exist. Can and do they play others? Of course, but to see them with their well known one is joyful to watch when they're in their element.

You think of optimal in limited terms. Hard math does not equate in so many factors. Play style, ping, fps, and most importantly reaction time. Some of us are not in our teens or twenties anymore. We're competing with young whippersnappers so we'll use to our advantage whatever we can get.

Ap sona is simply mine. Play her your way. Enjoy it. I certainly enjoy my way. Good luck out there.

CudyDarkyzJul 13, 20165 votes

I still want my auras back.

Sugar MommaJul 14, 20161 votes

The aura range increase was nice...it feels more like old Sona now except you can more freely switch between auras and choose your power chords (and thus Sona finally has a real skill ceiling).

CudyDarkyzJul 14, 20162 votes

I don't see those as auras.

Battlecast SonaJul 13, 20164 votes

Sona's powerchord damage got buffed and with lowered CDs you get more powerchords... so really her damage wasn't nerfed in her burst combo much at all. The Q damage and Hymn of Valor aura changes are only because the cooldown is much, much shorter than it was prior to the changes....

New Sona does MORE damage over the course of a fight than old Sona, but it's not as focused into her burst. This is a good thing.

TheorcheroJul 13, 20166 votes

she's hardly an enchantress, she's just a healbot now.

Hinagiku33Jul 13, 20162 votes

I think you mean "top-up bot". With the removal of the % missing HP portion of the heal (and the minuscule increase to the base to "compensate") it isn't really going to be a clutch save tool for low health allies and will probably be used mostly to top off allies to full health in lane.

Which is funny because Riot lowered the base but added the % missing heal to prevent it from only being good for topping off mostly healthy allies in the first place...

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 20162 votes

that also runes around to shield, and gives mobility,choose the good power chorde, while also aiming for a perfect ulti?...

Only Play DariusJul 13, 20165 votes

Wait for the nerfs

Hinagiku33Jul 13, 20169 votes

Patch 6.15: "So we found that Sona is really spamming her spells now with all that cooldown reduction we gave her. To balance this out we've decided to reduce the base damage on her Q, and the base shield and heal on W by about half since she can use them so often now."

Patch 6.16: "Our data shows that Sona is still spamming a lot which feels oppressive in lane even when each individual ability is less impactful. To balance this out we've decided to reduce the bonus cooldown reduction on her R by half so she can't spam as hard."

Patch 6.17: "So Sona's feeling a bit "Sejuani'd" by the recent changes since we cut the power of her basic abilities by a lot to cover for her spamming them more, then reduced her ability to spam them without compensation. To bring her back up a notch we've decided to raise her mana regen per level just a tick. We'll be keeping a close eye to see if these changes prove way to powerful and more nerfs are needed."

zlumpyJul 13, 20166 votes

6.18 she started casting a heal so we removed that. Now sona throws out a disco ball that makes every enemy dance. It doesn't actually prevent them from doing anything but we think it looks cool. Oh and allies with jump moves can't interact with it but jt can block allied players...but not enemies thatd be unfair.