@RiotRepertoir: Discrepancy with Guinsoo's Rageblade in Patch Notes and In Game

ProfDrDeath··23 votes·6,943 views
Patch 8.6 notes

Hello Repertoir,

there is a rather major discrepancy between the patch notes and the in game behaviour of item 3124 :

In the patch notes, it says:

> ATTACK SPEED PER STACK 8% attack speed ⇒ 8% total attack speed

However, in game, it behaves like each stack simply gives 8% regular attack speed, instead of multiplying existing AS.

I tested it using Irelia and the practice tool. With 187% AS, she has the expected 1.91 AS. With fully stacked Rageblade, she has 2.23 AS, which is consistent with having 235% increased AS, or 187 + 48. With a total AS amplification, I'd have expected either 2.51 (= 0.665 x (1 + 1.87 x 1.48)) if the multiplier affected AS increases, or 2.82 (= 0.665 x 2.87 x 1.48), if it indeed affected total AS.

Was the total AS boost canned without tellying the patch note writers? Or is it implement in-game in the incorrect way?

22 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir29 votes

It's an error in the patch notes. It's intended to be Bonus AS and is in-game. The total AS boost was a version on the PBE a few days before the branch cut, but was changed back to bonus in its last or second to last iteration that went to PBE.

DeathProfessor3 votes

will you ever touch frozen mallet too? feel like apart from yasuo, gnar and shyvanna no one uses it.

DeathProfessor3 votes

also why is the price of it being changed to 3300 on PBE? I mean it feel balanced.

RiotRiotRepertoir12 votes

Because it seems not balanced based on early data.

DeathProfessor2 votes

Can you nerf it a little bit in some other way? The price is one great thing about it, completing it helps a-lot so how about decreasing a little ad/ap/as from it instead of increasing the price.

Bern1 votes

Out of curiosity, was there anything specific you missed in its gold efficiency before it went live? For something that scales with other items, it's got bonkers efficiency when stacked. @_@ More efficient than Nashor's, jesus christ.

Or do you feel having access to Phantom Hit at 3k gold is the bigger problem?

Xyltin1 votes

It is not just early data.

At 3k gold it is considerably stronger because you have it finished already now.

At 3.6k gold the difference between the 2 is as follows (I use +20 AD for 600g from lang swords). I ignore the AS because it is the same and won't use runes which help the new one a bit:

  • old: 35 AD, 50 AP; 53 AD, 74 AP at max stacks

  • new: 45 AD, 25 AP; 56 AD, 31 AP at max stacks

So the differnce without stacks is +10 AD for -25 AP. Most champs like Yi, Kog and Varus take that trade. Varus 25 dmg on his R and 1.5% of the enemies max HP on 3 stacks but gains +4 dmg per AA, +10-15 dmg on his Q and +6 on his E which means he is fine with it, not really better or worse.

At max stacks the difference is +3 AD for -43 AP. That is now a nerf. But considering you have the item 600g finished more early and it is even without stacks this is just to not make it even stronger than it was before.

And now we could look at Yi and how he stacks it faster (AA->W reset+AA->AA->AA+P+full stacks). He cares even less about the AP. He uses mediate only in the jungle to heal a bit early on if needed and then use it mid combat as an AA reset. So he has 0 AP scalings he cares about and the item is still great on him. For him it was a direct buff to speed up his item build significantly while also making the AP loss something he doesn't care about.

And Kayle? the only one that really wanted the AP? She loves the 600g faster version to gain early and control the wave better with her +50% E power.

Now I would not go up by 300g just like that. 200g and -5 AP. Why -5 AP? The items base stats are exactly the stats of its components except the AP value. The AP value is also the one that is the least needed on the item and most abusers don't care much about the AP (kayle and Jax are the only 2 that want the AP. Kog and Varus like it but they don't need it. Yi doesn't care about it at all). 990g is also a huge combination cost, keeping it a bit lower if possible should be a goal.

If that is still too strong, then still leave the 5 AP away and go up to 300g combine cost.

PowerOfDrainAge2 votes

Its combine cost shouldnt be higher than it was when the item was just a bag of stats (8.5 and pre). I believe u should just increase cost to 3150

domicia1 votes

{quoted}

Because it seems not balanced based on early data.

I'm curious about somethin. Is there a significant performance discrepancy between melee and ranged champions?

RiotRiotRepertoir7 votes

The biggest movers on the patch that are likely users of the item so far have been Kog'Maw and Kayle (both ranged obviously). Kayle was expected to be the greatest beneficiary of the changes, as her common purchasing pattern was already to buy it second item or later (as opposed to a rush), which the item has been positioned to be better for now.

Because Varus hasn't moved much and Kog'Maw actually went up, it suggests the item is too forgiving to rush still.

I want to keep monitoring how the item does for melee users, and if it seems like the item isn't able to be used well for them, I'll be revisiting the melee-specific stack line. For that, we could reduce the stack threshold for getting to max stacks from 3 to 2, or outright remove the stacking requirement for melee if we wanted to go crazy. Those options exist, and I'm interested in exploring them as we learn more about how the item performs on various champions on Live, but for now, it seems OP and I'd like to get straight to addressing that rather than start thinking about nerfing individual champs right off the bat.

txt taehyun4 votes

Is the urgent necessity of fixing issues after changes purely based on winrate? I dont get why this gets instantly adressed while Zyra neither received bugfixes nor any review after her changes 5(!) months ago. An entire community does complain about her. It seems like shes ok for you just because 55% winrate at 15 minutes and a rapid decrease afterwards to 45% after 15 more minutes leave her at 50% overall.

Shadow Hazard3 votes

Rageblade performing better on the previously stronger users (ranged) is a little surprising to me honestly.

If you want to make the melee range discrepancy better I would say go back to the being similar to the pbe iteration that had 8 stacks with melee's getting 2 per.

Scaling 2% total AD per stack (sheen users like the item) Tone down the base AP to it's component value like the AD is Scaling 4.5% total AS per stack Cost to 3200

The 8 attacks for ranged while melee's keep the 4 should do something to address the discrepancy. There are ways to take that further without going full hog of turning it back into sated devourer for melee's.

Ranged get the phantom proc every 3rd or 4th attack (whichever is more appropriate) Upon reaching full stacks melee's instantly get the phantom proc while range's proc counter starts on the first auto after reaching max stacks

Going this route on top of making it 8 stacks to reach full, it would mean range's have to do the extra auto's would mean that they have to do 11-12 attacks to fully start really enjoying the effects vs the melee's being able to get going at 4.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

Also another point if you are really going to nerf the item AGAIN because it over-performs on ranged compared to melee riot is repeating a mistake that made many melee's quite sour about the treatment of the item.

Nefas1 votes

Yi feels incredibly oppressive with it now

ProfDrDeath1 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Varus/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/KogMaw/

I think these illustrate Repertoir's point. Rageblade changes were intended to move it off first-buy status, which should've resulted in Kog's and Varus's winrates going down a bit. However, the winrates instead go up.

SithesisLord3 votes

It´s almost as if making the most powerful on-hit item in the game nearly as accessible as a Zeal item by reducing its cost was a bad idea. Honestly, it should have kept its 3.6k cost. It´s supposed to be expensive.

koshkyra1 votes

because of varus

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Sasogwa4 votes

Yeah i don't know but several people made the calculation and they all found the same result you did, aka it's bonus AS and not total AS why do you have a duskblade icon for the thread though? :P

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Duskblade Icon from the link. Seems like it is the first icon on that page.

M00ndanc31 votes

as inefficient as it seems I have actually grown to like the new changes to it on jhin because everything it does (excluding ap but since jhin has ap scales i don't mind it) just gives him more attack damage. I was playing a game the other day and was around 800 AD with only three items because of all the %AD and AS it gives just works really well on the passive. pair it with celerity and every time you get a crit your AD goes through the roof. only prob is is that if you don't constantly aa your stacks will drop off a short while after your reload.

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