Why doesn't Runic echoes provide CDR for AP junglers?

Hochelaga·Mar 16, 2018·10 votes·1,124 views

Of all the 3 jungle items upgrade, I really feel like Runic echoes is the one who should have cdr and not Warrior. AP junglers usually relies on their spell to waveclear, not movespeed.

- Usually uses Relentless hunter and mobility boots - Usually uses Relentless hunter and mobility boots - Has bandages to get from jungle camp to another - Has access to a dash spell - Has access to a dash spell - Can use repel to get from jungle camp to another

Most of the AP jungler already got enough movespeed and dashes, they don't need that 7% movespeed. What they really need, is a CDR item.

30 Comments

IdveYsUfSKMar 16, 20187 votes

If riot removes the ms I bet you are going to cry for a revert. Most of them have a low base ms compared to their ad jg counterpart, which you will suffer from the entire game. Your team will probably blame you on the jg gap due to lack of timely ganks because you walk so slow. ms is the most important stat for the jungler. CDR is already slapped everywhere on ap items. The CDR will be useless for most mage junglers since they will be bursting in one rotation and get out, spell have way too high cooldowns to continue the fight even with CDR.

MissMikasaMar 16, 20185 votes

Maybe because the rest of AP itemization is already overcrowded with CDR in the first place?! We don't need more of it.

DeathBurstMar 16, 20181 votes

Not really?

You have the 3 Lost Chapter upgrades, and Protobelt, and then what? And the Lost Chapter upgrades don't even fully stack with themselves...

EDIT: Well OK, I forgot Banshee and Zhonyas, and I guess if we're talking about Junglers, Lichbane makes some sense too. Still, that's far from being "overcrowded". Especially since you won't rush a Lost Chapter upgrade when you already have Runic Echoes for your Mana Issues.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20183 votes

10 11 of 24 Mage Items offer 10% CDR. 2 of 24 Mage items over 20% CDR.

There is way too much CDR in League at the moment.

DeathBurstMar 16, 20182 votes

I really don't know how you count...

I see 3 Mage Items with 20% CDR, the 3 Lost Chapter upgrades I mentioned myself, not 2: item 3285 item 3003 item 3030

But I see only 3 with 10%: item 3152 item 3102 item 3157 not 10. (And yes, I forgot Banshee and Zhonya the first time, my bad. Should've remembered that it's one for each defensive stat: HP/MR/Armor.)

I don't know what you put in your "24 Mage items", but Abyssal or Lichbane aren't "Mage items", and all the other Support items (Athene, Twin Shadows, etc.) aren't either. OK, maybe Twin Shadows, especially if they buff it next Patch, and it's true that Abyssal was picked on a couple Mages like Ryze/Cassio, but they are talking about changing it soon, and it was never intended for Mages. And even with Abyssal and Twin Shadows, that's only 5, not 10. So what are those 5 items you have in mind?

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20181 votes

Only one of those three can give you 20% CDR, the other two only give you 10% then.

10% CDR: item 3001 item 3174 item 3102 item 3152 item 3158 item 3092 item 3905 item 3157 item 3100 20% CDR: item 3115 item 3003 item 3285 item 3030 No CDR: item 3165 item 3041 item 3151 item 3146 item 3089 item 3027 item 3116 item 3907 item 3135 item 3020 item 1402

I might have miscounted, so it's 13:11 instead of 12:12.

DeathBurstMar 16, 20183 votes

Except...

Athene, Lucidity Boots, the Eyestone aren't Mage Items, and not even good items for AP Junglers in general.
Nashor is super niche, not an item you can just pick for an easy 20% CDR, so not a cause of "overcrowding".
Lichbane and Abyssal, while usable by certain AP Junglers (so relevant to what OP said, I agree), aren't exactly "Mage Items" either. (And while I'm at it, Gunblade isn't either.)

But enough nitpicking from me, and let's go back to the original topic. Adding CDR to Runic Echoes won't cause any overcrowding, it will simply offset the fact that Laners can rush a Lost Chapter item while Junglers won't because they use Runic Echoes for their Mana issues.

I was wrong on the details (my bad), but my point still stands: "AP items are overcrowded with CDR" is NOT a good reason to justify "Runic Echoes doesn't have CDR".

HäxelMar 16, 20181 votes

item 3152 item 3100 item 3157 item 3102 item 3174 item 3115 can be used by Evelynn Elise Nidalee Fiddlesticks Diana Fizz

DeathBurstMar 16, 20181 votes

Yeah, forgot Banshee/Zhonya, my bad.

I did mention Protobelt, and Lichbane makes sense on a lot of AP Junglers, but I was thinking too much about Mages (again, my bad).

But Nashor is super niche, and Death's Dance isn't an AP item at all.

So overall? I would definitely NOT call AP items "overcrowded with CDR". Most importantly, AP laners can easily rush 20% CDR with their first item, whereas AP junglers are mostly limited to 10% on their second, so you can't deny it's much harder to access CDR from the Jungle. Adding CDR to Runic Echoes would only offset the difference, not cause any more overcrowding than there already is.

HäxelMar 17, 20181 votes

yea, i meant athenes, not deaths dance (for nidalee for exampel). Still i would argue if it is realy needed to put cdr on an already stron a jungle entchantment or if ap mages need it if most ites they get already give cdr (most times they get maybe 1 penitem which does not give cdr, sometimes you see a nidalee with roa, but thats it). Also twinshadows, which could get buffs 8.6 or later, and shureliya's, which comes 8.6, could be an option.

MissMikasaMar 16, 20181 votes

uh Death's Dance is an AD item bro, so only one that works for is Eve, but if I remember right they took her AD scaling out so that doesn't work either.

HäxelMar 17, 20181 votes

sry my bad i meant athenes. can be used by nidalee for exampel. Ivern too ofcourse or kayle jungle.

5000000000000000Mar 16, 20181 votes

item 3102 item 3100 item 3115 item 3905 item 3157 item 3001 , and the ones you've mentioned.

Tomoe GozenMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because the rest of AP itemization is already overcrowded with CDR in the first place?! We don't need more of it.

If you look at the new itemization, that's no longer correct since 20% from Morello's is no longer there. Now it's all split between multiple items, where some of them don't even go in the same AP build. So AP champs did lose some CDR in the process unless they really opt into Ultimate hat and CDR runes.

MissMikasaMar 16, 20181 votes

Ah no, what it seems like is that we gained even more. We don't need any more on top of that.

Tomoe GozenMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ah no, what it seems like is that we gained even more. We don't need any more on top of that.

Please list me all the AP items that have CDR on them and that they can be built together in a build. I'm not interested in hypotheticals, i'm interested in viable and actual builds because i'm not hitting that 40/45% cap unless i actually try hard to get it.

EDIT:

Someone actually did so you don't have to:

[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fAhW5l2O,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T19:42:29.469+0000)

Only one of those three can give you 20% CDR, the other two only give you 10% then.

10% CDR: 20% CDR: No CDR:

I might have miscounted, so it's 13:11 instead of 12:12.

Unless you're Galio, you don't need item 3001 . item 3174 isn't a typical mage purchase, not even among champions that can apply a heal or a shield (maybe Nidalee). item 3102 item 3092 item 3100 aren't typical purchases. item 3905 is niche for ganks and catch potential. item 3158 are typical for mages but more often than not, mages opt into item 3020 . item 3030 item 3146 item 3152 are situational, depending on the champion you're playing. AP mana batteries go for and item 3003 , AP assassins go for , AP champs that need waveclear . Unless you're Azir or Diana, you don't need item 3115 .

So what's actually left? item 3157 item 3285 + Non CDR AP items. That's pretty much it. You actually need to dip into CDR runes to make your max CDR needs possible.

MissMikasaMar 17, 20181 votes

lol a lot of those items are more typical than you think. I constantly run over the limit with full AP mages, so much that I have to take the mastery that converts extra CDR over the cap into AP.

And supports? They always reach max CDR.

We have too much. Period.

HäxelMar 17, 20181 votes

and where exactly comes the place where you gonna tell us you "lost" some cdr in the progress? item 3165 got replaced by either item 3285 , item 3030 or item 3003 . Far more you can even combine them, not for full cdr addition but by adding half of it (2items 30, 3 items 40) while old Morellos Cdr was unique. Also item 3040 as an own Item gains now the cdr earlier a Rye or Casiopeia tried to achive by buying before morellos as third.

Over the years cdr got added on every other remianing cdr item, only item 3174 got a cdr nerf (in the already much cdr crowded supportitemization): "new" cdr items: item 3152 item 3102 item 3905 Shurelya's (coming 8.6 which gives ap, movementspeed, health, 10cdr). cdr added: 5.22 item 3100 6.9 Abyssal Scepter (now item 3001 )& item 3157 8.4 item 3802 .

Rune Reforged: Removed: cdr runes, most popular was 6 Scaling Glyphs giving 10 cdr at lv 18. Added Transcendence, which gives 10 cdr lv 10 AND changes overcapeed cdr into ad or ap.

So where exactly did you loose cdr? Champions who have run ebfore morellos go now one of the 3 new items. Even champions who didn't go morellos now get cdr from seraph or just by going ludens/glp cause they like this item. But no former morello champion goes now instead of a lost chapter item item 3027 or no mana at all. Morello was kinda a gooditem but it was also the only item. Will still be a good item but the 3 choices increased cdr and how tog et it early (now even on lost chapter), not decreased. Same from runes overall. People going 20 or 30 scaling cdr where just totaly rare. saw it on zac, jsut says that cdr is more eneded on tankunglers as on ap junglers.

Tomoe GozenMar 17, 20181 votes

CDR over the years wasn't the point of this discussion. We're talking about the recent AP item changes when the CDR from Morello's was removed and added on other AP items that don't really suit every AP champion. That's why i've given an explanation on who's going to use what item, essentially leaving Zhonya's and Luden's as AP items that can suit a variety of champions.

Zhonya's is maybe a core item for Lissandra and Morgana. But you'd be a fool to itemize that first and not some mana item or else your spells would cost you a lot of resources to cast, especially if you're not running Manaflow Band in favor of Ultimate Hat (which i usually do). Shurelia's won't have any crazy AP since it's meant for Enchanters. It's not going to be Syndra's go-to item since Spellbinder is way better. I wasn't saying AP itemization is now bad, i only said that if you want 40/45% CDR, you have to achieve this through runes and get 1-2 AP CDR items.

HäxelMar 17, 20181 votes

and it was always be like this if not worse, to get this cdr amount. Name me 5 Champions who used before Morellos and now neither Ludens, Glp or Seraph doesn't suit. (champs who used seraph AND morellso don't count, they have no cdr loose). Or name me ONE. There happened no cdr decrease. Literaly. Ludens and Glp bring far more for the lane as morellos with extra damage, waveclear, poke, utility or slow. All morellos had was the manapassive from lost chapter and grivoius wounds. Still there is in no way a manaproblem for some champions now who now go roa. Isn't the case. Cause also the extra strong manarunes exist. Presence of midn could get reworked to be similar to old morellos mana passive with extra stuff like bonus exp. But there DIDN'T happen ANY Cdr decrease. Neither practicle or theoretical.

HP CrookshanksMar 16, 20182 votes

Because Riot always favors AD champions. They have always better itemizations. Elise's E is rappel not repel by the way. [sg-miss-fortune]

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 16, 20182 votes

Hey, why not remove CDR entirely and reduce all spell cooldowns by 40%? Doesn't that sound like fun?

Alex h8721Mar 16, 20182 votes

I kind of agree, runic is probably the most underwhelming of all the Jg enchants. Also on Amumu and Gragas you should definitely be building cinderhulk

RainbowIceeMar 16, 20181 votes

I buy it on Elise before finishing echoes as it's too expensive in the first place

DeathBurstMar 16, 20181 votes

That's a good question. But really, don't talk about Warrior, it only muddies the issue. Doesn't matter what the AD champs have, the question is: do the AP champs need the CDR or not?

I think they do, and Lane AP Champs typically rush a Lost Chapter item for that reason, so it's strange that Jungle AP champs can't. I hope Repertoir or some other Red can come and comment a bit on this issue, take my upvote ;)

HäxelMar 16, 20181 votes

i think the cdr on warriots is to much. Still i would argue mages not realy need it, more likly tanks. If you not certainly go item 3001 , item 3211 or item 3024 items only cdr item is item 3083 . All the other armor or hybrid armor/mr/healthitems give no cdr. Juggernautitems give it neither beside. only trintiy or bc and do you realy want that on a Volibear for exampel? thing is, warriots alone jsut gives ad, the other items have passives. still with the lethalatyitems, black cleaver, deaths dance, maw i think ther eis already much cdr in ad (assassins) and warriot jsut lets you make good use of transcendence.

MorganFreemanBotMar 16, 20181 votes

So, here's the difference:

Warrior is a stat stick and nothing more. It gives stats, AD and CDR, with nothing else. Unlike every other jungle enchantment, it does not offer any sort of 'extra' effect to help it scale. It has no % health increase, no bonus mana restore, and no onhit effects.

Simply put warrior is bland, but functional, and does not offer amplified scaling in any way. The alternative would be to give it an immense amount of AD (it'd need around 100 if it offered no cdr) or actually give it an effect.

dim2aMar 17, 20181 votes

I think it's better if buying CDR is a choice, that leaves more strategic options for building - -do I go for cdr, or for other stats? Lumping everything one needs into a single build path makes choosing a build boring.

Jungle Lux GodMar 17, 20181 votes

AP junglers rely on their spells to waveclear, but if you play a champion in which cooldown reduction actually makes a difference in how fast you clear then you need to play a different jungler. By the time you get Runic Echoes you either get an extra spell rotation for when the camp's almost dead or you get an extra meaningful spell rotation after getting your Runic Echoes at 15 minutes because the factors that affect an AP jungler's clear are base damages, base cooldowns, and scalings.

Think about it. When you poach a jungle camp as nearly any mid lane mage after around 15-20 minutes, don't you just nuke the camp in 1-2 spells? Now apply that to junglers. It's the same deal.

The movement speed is more impactful because of the extra map pressure you get off of it. You aren't just farming the jungle, you're also clearing wards, ganking lanes, stealing your opponent's camps, and chasing the Scuttle Crab up and down the length of the river.