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Camille's design from a balance standpoint is an absolute disaster. (Rant, down vote, whatever)

Packun Flower··76 votes·4,487 views

I would like to continue to see nerfs to this champion but I believe that her kit will never allow her to be truly balanced unless it actually loses something. I know Riot likes to adjust numbers little by little but Camille's kit design is just way to cluttered and as a result she gets a crazy ton of free power AND protection. Camille has a severe Identity crises now because her kit's chaotic cluster doesn't allow her to pick an actual proper class and focus on it.

Camille has:

Assassin Damage Tank Stat Growth Fighter/Jungler Mobility

That is seriously not good. Riot needs to seriously sit down and decide what they want Camille to be, because right now she is everything and its making her the best champion in the game with all kinds of free power.

Assassin Identity If they decide they want her to be an assassin then several things i feel really need to change.

  • Increase Ad Ratios and true damage on Q slightly
  • Increase AD Ratios
  • Change her passive to a more damage based one
  • Reduce HP and Armor/Mr Growth
  • Remove Bonus Movement Speed on Q
  • Remove healing on W.
  • Remove Bonus Attack Speed on E
  • Remove Stun on E.
  • Remove splash damage on E
  • Allow Ult to actually be escapable

I honestly think the Assassin identity for Camille honestly fits her character the best, keeping the burst and mobility will allow her to make split second judgments on when to assassinate a target. Camille Already does this but she get the free Tank growth stats and escapes to get in and get out without any risk and all reward. Having to force her to go more damage will mean that a bad assassination call could be fatal and punishable for her.

Tank identity I really dont understand why Camille would need to be a tank but for whatever reason, if they want her to truly be one then I believe several power shifts need to change.

  • Increase passive shield strength.
  • Increase healing on W.
  • Remove True damage on Q.
  • Reduce how far she can leap with E.
  • Remove splash damage on E
  • Disallow E to leap over walls.
  • Remove bonus attack speed on E.
  • Remove bonus damage on ult.

Like i said, I really don't understand how tank play would fit Camille's character at all but for some reason they wanted it, if that's what they wanted her to be then this might work. it would remove her crazy burst and true damage which a tank should never have, but allow her to be more meaningful in fights with her utility.

Fighter Identity This is the second class i think would fit Camille as well. Balanced out mobility and damage would be the best bet here and i think would make the most sense for her character in terms of being fighter rather then an assassin.

  • Change passive cool down to a solid 15 seconds at all ranks.
  • Increase movement speed on Q
  • Reduce Armor/Mr growth
  • Remove reduced Damage on jungle monsters for W
  • Reduce true damage on Q
  • Reduce healing on W
  • Remove splash damage on E
  • Reduce bonus damage on ult.

I think with these changes this allows Camille to be an actual fighter. She'll have the damage and mobility for some great plays but she wont have the burst of an assassin or the survivability of a tank to back it.

Closing I am actually pretty baffled that Camille was allowed to break a lot of champion design rules and fundamentals upon her creation and the result we got was this unstoppable permanently banned monster who does literally everything and is not fun to face at all. Am I salty? Probably. Will I be down voted? oh you know it. Will that stop my voice or opinion from being heard? not in the slightest, and thats all i really care about it. it helps me vent .

[slayer-jinx-wink]

82 Comments

Nameless Voice43 votes

Honestly, I don't think an inescapable ultimate has any place in League.

If you are playing a squishy champion and you get caught in her ultimate, you are just dead. There's no way you can fight back against a fighter (or an assassin) at close range when you can't kite. It's even worse if you are a champion who can't fight (such a support), in which case you can't do anything except for die.

Positioning is supposed to be one of the most important aspects of League. A champion who can completely deny your ability to position breaks the rules too much.

Joxcab6 votes

If you were positioning with your team, you wouldn't be screwed.

JavelinJoe7 votes

Or your team can blow her up since she dove your back line. Many supports can pull her off of you or out of her ult. Some ADC's like Vayne can push her out of it too. Just because she ults, does not make her immortal, so you always could just kill her, and having 2 types of damage is a very good way to do so because her passive blocks only one kind of damage. Some champions, like Zed and Shaco, can actually cause her to "miss" her ult (it goes on CD but the cage is never made and she is still charged for the mana) if they time their own ults well.

Verxint22 votes

{quoted}

Or your team can blow her up since she dove your back line.

Every other diver is vulnerable to this, except their target is also allowed to run away.

LordGeovanni1 votes

hence why all champions arent the same. AurelionSol not every other champion has passive floating nukes around them why not give everyone floating nukes

Knoyle1 votes

Aurelion is a champion that relies so heavily on positioning and mana management, I find it astonishing you can even remotely compare him to a champion that is basically Vi, Talon and Fiora mashed together with blades for legs. Hell. Aurelion loses his passive while cc'd and its not like he tends to be tanky enough to not be dead after it hits more than half the time.

Meanwhile Camille does a better job at being Vi than fucking VI because she has mobility out the ass, True damage, a larger displacement via ulti along with the fact her target can't just flash or dash out right after being ulted AND she has sustain on top of the fucking shield. Camille is a Frankenstein of other champions with Attack on Titan weeb shit added into it.

LordGeovanni1 votes

For anyone who argues that any ranged character relies on positioning there is no ranged character that relies on positioning as much as any melee character its just that they can also have a use while being far away the whole reason melee champions build defenses is to aleviate some of the pressure of being useless 70% of every time 2 teams meet until some one engages like how people will meet and dance for3-7 minutes before a 30 second fight and only ranged characters can feel any use during that time and melee characters have to stand in front of ranged characters to zone off champions and dodge damage at the same time. camille is less overloaded than aurelion sol kalista or even talon or darius. its just that people see melee characters as the people who should only hold tanking capabilites because those are the only viable melees that have been viable from season 4 started. the concept of melee carries has been killed off because of the death of defense items and constant lowering of ranged spells cooldowns while haveing quick cast animations or else they get claimed to feel clunky which is hidden buffing in itself

LordGeovanni3 votes

except the ultimate is very large and no matter if she ults you there is lots of space with in the arena to run around and waste time. stick next to a wall you can then dash over the wall when she most likely had to burn her 20-16 second wall dash to even get close enough to dash not to mention she probably missed stun and isnt getting the bonuses because of how telegraphed the dash. you can stand next to wall when being ulted go over the wall while still in the ult and wait out or more likely fight out the duration since you are a ranged carry

CatSith10 votes

If she ults a squishy champion and they die, they are either out of position or their team isn't peeling correctly.

Idk if people realize that if you remove Camille from her ults zone you break her ult too. It comes down to counter picking, any champion with a disposition cc can counter her ult easily.

Azir Alistar Tristana XinZhao Urgot Taliyah Nautilus LeeSin Blitzcrank GragasZiggs Vayne AurelionSol Poppy Shyvana Darius Janna Thresh And TahmKench can literally carry their ally out of it.

Rocnation981 votes

How can they be out of position, her ult knocks all the other allied champs away.

Joxcab1 votes

And said allies can just walk back in.

Death by Kayn2 votes

If tahm kench eats an ally ulted by Camille, they'll be put back inside the ult when he spits them out.

Joxcab1 votes

Only if he spits them out before it ends. Tahm's W duration lasts longer though.

Spoofghoul1 votes

but it does force a disengage since your damage dealer is in stasis and tahm can ahrdly sit around in the middle of the enemy team waiting to vomit out the damage dealer

it's better to just eat camille instead xD

Shaco Psycho2 votes

I get if it blocks abilities and items from getting you out, but come on, every other terrain editing champion can be flashed out of, why not Camille.

Jarvan, Veigar, Thresh, Talia, Yorrick.

Makes no sense, to me, why they did this

Joxcab1 votes

Because it doesn't nuke people inside for damage like Jarvan's or trap multiple people either.

It doesn't stun or do any other CC than basically make the map smaller for a short period of time or trap multiple people like Veigar's.

It doesn't slow or do damage when people hit the edge like Thresh's.

It doesn't damage people or slow them when they get hit by it or go through it like Taliyah's.

And it's an ultimate ability unlike Yorick's basic ability.

Shaco Psycho1 votes

In the nuke case you brought up with Jarvan, he traps everyone inside of it in, and everyone outside of it out. What does Camille's do? Trap only a single person and allow her team to flood on top of that person. There's the difference that makes up for the non nuking.

Thus if that point makes the two ultimate abilities equal, then, it should still be flashable just like Jarvan's ulti.

Joxcab1 votes

Except the that one person's team can just walk back in. The whole niche of her ultimate is that they can't escape. And Jarvan's ultimate instantly nukes everyone inside for potentially huge damage.

Camille's ultimate doesn't do anything else besides give bonus damage on autos and a slight pushback to allies of her target. But they can just walk back in and help.

Spoofghoul1 votes

it has some counterplay trough picks

but as it stands you have to ban her or forst pick her if your team doesn't have last pick or doesnt want to play any champs with regular knockbacks like alistar

which is kind of bad

i would also do away with her true damage and just make it magic damage instead

still makes it harder to itemize against her for most champs but at least it be possible

Wind Whistler15 votes

Riot knew what they were doing when they made her. She was designed to be a cancer champion. There's no way you can look at her kit and tell me she wasn't designed to be cancer. The signs were obvious from the beginning.

THE RlVER KlNG12 votes

Camille is a mistake of a champion that should never have gotten past the design phase

let's make a diver with heals, true damage, two forms of %damage, a double dash, an AoE stun, and AoE slow, a 4-second-you-cant-leave-zone, an aoe knockback, massive shielding, two auto resets, and movement/attack speed steroids

sounds like a good idea guys

IceKingChernobog5 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f9Hz7bOE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-23T00:31:49.110+0000)

Camille is a mistake of a champion that should never have gotten past the design phase

let's make a diver with heals, true damage, two forms of %damage, a double dash, an AoE stun, and AoE slow, a 4-second-you-cant-leave-zone, an aoe knockback, massive shielding, two auto resets, and movement/attack speed steroids

sounds like a good idea guys

Honestly, you would think riot would have learned their lesson when they let Yasuo Azir Kalista Ekko through the design phase, and yet here we are.

Oleandervine6 votes

Camille got hit really hard last patch. She's no longer a freelo win.

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

doesn't change her identity of being an overloaded fuck with no true weakness - mobility, damage, huge utility, and strong defensive options led to tankko in the past you'd think Riot would have learned their fucking lesson

CHROMOSOME 214 votes

She is still a freelo win, only now you actually need a monitor to play her.

HudnofskiBleh4 votes

At first I thought you were talking about the champion lore and design. I was about to say, "w0t"

I personally believe that she should be an assassin/fighter to match her character design. She's all about precision, and when you think of precision, you usually think of assassins, and you most definitely do not think tank. I wonder who on Riot's design team looked at her character design and said, "She should be a tank." I mean she's tall, but being tall doesn't mean you can take a lot of damage. I'm 6 feet tall, and one punch to my face would have me crying like a baby.

I personally think they should take most of the tank aspects out of her kit.

P.S. I noticed you said they should make the assassin based Camille have an escapable ultimate. I personally think they should leave that, as that aspect of her kit, is fairly important to her identity.

Packun Flower3 votes

I agree. An assassin makes sense for her and so does a fighter. If they made her an assassin it might push her to the midlane which would allow her to get more proper use of her E and allow for easier roaming ganks with her ult, which is what Assassins should really be doing. Removing her tank stats in the process means that other proper midlaners and assassins can actually fight back.

Who whole concept design is to be this tactical assassin right? how does being a tank fit her at all in the slightest? it just doesn't make sense to me.

Lugg3 votes

Riot has been a complete fail on most of their newer champs. They feel that every new champ most have so much crap packed into their kits so that they can counter every other champ in the game.

Just look at Cam, Kled, Kindred, Ekko, Rek'sai, Gnar, Yas, etc.

Then you have newer champs that have zero counterplay for a significant portion of the champs in the game. Illaoi is absolute cancer to almost all melee champs as an example.

Why can't they make more champs like Ivern (even though he needs a few minor nerfs/tweaks), Taliyah, Sol, and Bard?

Big Lincoln9 votes

Illaoi is absolute cancer to almost all melee champs as an example.

only if you're garbage and don't understand how any of her mechanics work and can't see her delayed skillshots

Lugg6 votes

People always say that, but when I play her, I have no problems at all hitting any of her abilities.

Joxcab6 votes

Because you're against bad players.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f9Hz7bOE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-02-22T23:02:04.235+0000)

only if you're garbage and don't understand how any of her mechanics work and can't see her delayed skillshots

Yeah bro, just pink ward the spear tentacles !!!

Big Lincoln3 votes

the only time her tentacles are difficult to avoid is when she ults, and she still has counterplay by moving away from her so she can't W onto you or force her out of it with displacements.

otherwise she is one of the most telegraphed characters in game, with enormous delays and long cast times on all her abilities

Nameless Voice7 votes

Gotta say, I'm not a fan of Ivern wandering into your jungle and instantly stealing your buffs. There isn't exactly any counterplay to that if you don't have a coordinated team.

Joxcab1 votes

He can't instantly steal it.

Dominick Destine12 votes

{quoted}

He can't instantly steal it.

summoner 11 ?

Joxcab1 votes

Doesn't work unless he created the Grove first.

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

You know exactly what he means. He has to create the grove, but even if you have warded... setting the grove and smiting the buff is so fast that even if you warded it there is no chance you get there in time to damage him, not to mention stopping him from taking it.

Death by Kayn1 votes

Are you saying that Kled counters every other champ in the game? You obviously don't play much Kled.

Lugg1 votes

No, he doesn't counter every champ, but some champs have pretty much zero counterplay against him.

IronwallJackson1 votes

Oh? Like what, exactly?

Lugg1 votes

Kled completely craps on GP, Yas, Darius, Maokai, Renekton, Riven, Jayce, and Shen.

The ONLY champ that does well against him is Fiora.

IronwallJackson1 votes

I don't know what kind of experience you have with Kled, but Riven, Renekton, and Darius all give Kled a run for his money unless he picks his trades well. I haven't laned against a Jayce yet so I'm not sure what to say about him, but Yasuo isn't a good yardstick for this sort of thing; he loses basically any hard engage from any other melee fighter.

Juggernaut6283 votes

You really don't like that splash damage on her E, do you?

Packun Flower2 votes

It's completely unnecessary.

Usernamehere12353 votes

Objectively, you're just wrong so far. She has been nerfed, and her statline and playstyle is quite similar to Irelia's. Her ban rate has gone down SIGNIFICANTLY in platinum+ elo, and her winrate is less than 50% as of now. If her winrate goes up due to people getting more practice, then fine. But as far as I'm concerned, her kit really isn't very cluttered. It all centralizes around one concept; which is to snowball the lane. Camille, in my opinion, is a lane specialist; meaning that she excels in laning. If she's unable to win out in laning phase either with solo kills, farm leads, or better roams, she becomes phenomenally less successful come mid and late game. Her entire kit is made to snowball top, and she has extremely potent counters which stop her from doing this (Poppy is a biggie, but also scalers like Fiora, and tanks like Shen). Really, the only reason people complain about her snowball specifically is that A) she's a lane specialist, and B) in the mid-game she can take over games with triforce power spikes. Irelia can do the same thing, except she's not as strong in lane, and scales better. Both champions can still one shot ads if their fed, but which kit do you think is healthier? People complained about Irelia because she did and does the same thing.

DiShanTheRage2 votes

Man, that no because she is now weak, its because shithality fckin op, so there no banslot for camille.

The Whamboozler3 votes

Fun fact.... most of the newer champs Riot has added have this problem. Any time a champ shows up with an overloaded or insanely utility-stuffed kit they're nearly impossible to balance. You'd think they'd have learned this problem with Ekko... yet here we are again.

Pyr0mrcow2 votes

Very similar to the problems Azir and rework-Poppy had on release. Swiss army knife champs. ...I mean, I loved both, but the opponents didn't.

Arakadia1 votes

Camille is much worse imho. Atleast much worse than Poppy.

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