Old Thornmail was better at countering lifesteal than New Thornmail

Subdue·Jul 13, 2017·17 votes·1,862 views

There are very very few points in the game where New Thornmail outclasses Old Thornmail's ability to counter lifesteal.

In the attached table, Damage dealt for Old Thornmail is calculated as follows: [15%*Premitigation Damage] + [25%Armor] - [25% LifestealPostmitigation Damage]

Damage dealth for New Thornmail is calculated as follows: [25] + [10%Armor] - [25% LifestealPostmitigation Damage] * [60% Grievous Wounds]

*For simplicity, I assume all damage is bonus damage, since base armor changes per level and by champion.

I don't know how this can be viewed as anything other than a massive nerf.

http://picpaste.com/pics/Thornmail-VZigJGfL.1499918683.png

18 Comments

The JigSAWJul 13, 20177 votes

Its really pathetic to be quite honest, and an obvious slap in the face to tell people "we want melee AD champions to crush you" since now none of their damage hits back.

15% attack speed reduction is next to nothing on the champions you'd use this against. 10% armor plus a lousy 25 magic damage on hit? Seriously? So if we have somebody with 300 AD and 20% lifesteal they'll get at least 60 per shot back outside of any crit. GW for one second is not worth it, and the overall health is trash since I can spend 800 gold on Kindlegem, get more health and 10% cooldown too.

They should have reverted to 30% of basic attacks being reflected back with grievous wounds. With how easy some champs deliver damage with just autos these days there's no reason not to have the original thornmail back with 30% of basic attacks reflected - I mean, most of them lifesteal 20-30% or more of their damage anyway!

As far as why people are hating on Draven, you have to have some good skill to balance two axes constantly to benefit from the lifesteal and crit that becomes "crazy good" over time. That should not be punished at all, and shows the line of thinking that's wrong with League right now - "Somebody's really good at a champion, NERF THAT CHAMPION NOW!"

KloqdqJul 13, 20171 votes

Closer to 30-50 pre hit from what I say. 300 armor (which is very nice of me) is 50 damage on the item, before it is reduced by MR.

Bob the ToastrJul 13, 20172 votes

But what about our ADC master race meta? Something something botlane is the most important something something ADC's should be able to kill tanks in 0 seconds something something wah wah wah I can't just right click the tank and get all my health back.

NEmO AnimusJul 14, 20171 votes

hijacking:

This graph takes lifesteal as being a 25% constant. It needs to be 3 dimensional to be taken seriously. The attack speed slow + griveous wounds + the overall tankiness offered being buffed (100 armor < 75armor+250health) = 1: arguably better damage than old thornmail at lower lifesteal and 2: definitely a better overall tank item.

AmetDeCryptJul 13, 20173 votes

I don't know why they didn't just change it to 25% bonus armor and lower the base to 10% and call it a day. as it stands it's a better counter to MAGES now that it scales independently of the attacks that are hitting you and is better against kog'maw and the other runan's stackers than the real problems with lifesteal like draven.

ps draven's gonna become permaban soon at this rate.

BLACK REALM GODJul 13, 20172 votes

that's not the point. new thornmail is meant to be competitive for armor in general. not just an item that is only bought to serve the purpose of countering lifesteal.

VekknaJul 13, 20172 votes

I do not understand that chart. Are the reflect damage numbers the net damage taken by an attacker with 25% lifesteal?

khorneyJul 13, 20172 votes

new one has aa speed slow old one does not and this gives hp old does not

nm1010Jul 13, 20172 votes

Power spikes, bramble vest is a godly early - mid game item vs any type of healing. In exchange for receiving that item you lost your late game scaling.

Was it necessarily a worth while trade? I'm not sure and I hate tank math so I'll leave that to other people to handle.

SpoofghoulJul 13, 20172 votes

not like it was hard to rush thornmail

the buildpath was retarded tho but the final item was pretty cheap

nm1010Jul 13, 20171 votes

Thornmail previously didn't hard counter things like Soraka heal in the mid game. Not to mention 900g vs 2350g is a pretty big difference.

Pacattack25Jul 14, 20172 votes

Question: What is the reduced life that gets stolen because of grievous wounds - oh your table doesn't show that how convenient What is the reduced damage because of AA getting slowed - oh your table doesn't show that how convenient

NachingJul 14, 20172 votes

Reduced life was calculated.

A hit is a hit and do the same damage with a irrelevant 15% more slow or not... But surprise with the new thormail you take more damage with 25 less armor. Now need the table show that? How of convenient

Nice try!

Pacattack25Jul 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Reduced life was calculated.

A hit is a hit and do the same damage with a irrelevant 15% more slow or not... But surprise with the new thormail you take more damage with 25 less armor. Now need the table show that? How of convenient

Nice try!

Yes - but you take 15% less autoattacks - which inherently means that over a period of say 5 seconds you take less damage...

DrCyanideJul 13, 20171 votes

Pro tip: use \* to make * appear.

NachingJul 13, 20171 votes

Old thormail was better in all. This is a huge nerf and really a deleted ítem.

Thanks Rito one more time

NEmO AnimusJul 14, 20171 votes

vidghostJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=NEmO Animus,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f5MzfY7A,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-07-14T07:53:59.060+0000)

This graph takes lifesteal as being a 25% constant. It needs to be 3 dimensional to be taken seriously. The attack speed slow + griveous wounds + the overall tankiness offered being buffed (100 armor < 75armor+250health) = 1: arguably better damage than old thornmail at lower lifesteal and 2: definitely a better overall tank item.

WRONG!!! .. ive played 2000 games with the old thornmail.. After this update ( heavy nerf ) I dont bother buying it anymore its complete trash in every way and i STOP after bramble vest.. its the only thing worth getting and spending an extra 2000g to upgrade to thornmail for 250 health 40 armor and -15 attack speed is SO not worth it!

The old thornmail gave you so much for 2350gold ( 100 armor!!! ) The new thornmail gives you so little for 2900gold

Its outclaseed by almost every single other armor when it comes to value in stats for gold

The added joke is that the NERFED sunfire cape does more damage then thornmail does now late game!