"Riot sucks at catching trolls!" - Let's help them out!

Subdue··36 votes·2,610 views

The Premise

Anyone who has spent 5 minutes on the Player Behavior board knows that a pretty consistent complaint is that trolls, or players who intentionally attempt to make their own teams lose, are not caught fast enough by Riot. Maybe they're right. Let's take a look.

In 2014, League of Legends had 27 Million daily players. I think it's safe to assume this number has grown, but we'll use it as a baseline so that we'll have a conservative estimate.

Now, let's assume that each player only played one game each (obviously not the case). That means 2.7 Million games per day.

Now let's assume that a player is reported for trolling in a tiny 1% of games (Again, super conservative). That means 27,000 reports per day.

Trolling rarely can be determined by stats or speech, because anyone with half a brain can pretend to be trying to win, while actually trying to lose. So let's estimate that reviewing a match and exacting punishment takes 5 minutes (Again, it probably takes closer to 30 minutes, but we're being super conservative here.) That means it takes a whopping 2,250 hours per day to review all of the reports.

In order to employ such a team, Riot would need to employ a team of 282 employees full time. At minimum wage of 7.25/hour, that's a cost of $4.25 Million a year.

The Challenge

Given that having a team perform the manual function of reviewing each case is likely a financial impossibility, let's turn to the method which Riot seems to have chosen: Detection via automated system. Now, I think everyone can agree that League is pretty damn good at catching toxic chat - some might even argue too good. But how does it perform at catching other types of trolling? Many would say not very well.

So here's the challenge (No programming knowledge needed): For various types of trolling, define a ruleset that will detect that type of trolling without erroneously punishing players who aren't actually intentionally trolling. Here's an example:

Type of Trolling: AFKing Rule #1: Period of inactivity longer than 5 minutes Rule #2: Average Actions Per Minute Less than 1

Obviously this is a really simple example, and a relatively easy one to detect - most likely why the Leaverbuster is so successful. Below are some other examples of what people consider trolling that you might want to tackle (All ideas I've gotten from various threads on this board):

  1. Intentional Feeding
  2. Stealing CS
  3. Stealing Jungle Camps
  4. Avoiding Teamfights
  5. "AFK" Farming Jungle
  6. Fake accidental deaths
  7. Entering a teamfight but not trying to win it (Intentionally missing skillshots, for example)

If you think of more, please post and I'll add them here.

The Counter-Challenge

As people add their suggestions, I'd challenge the rest of you to try and identify holes in their rules - ways in which their ruleset might fail to catch a troll, ways in which a troll might avoid the ruleset, or ways in which the ruleset might inadvertently catch non-trolls.

Together we'll help Riot build a better mouse troll trap.

103 Comments

Weathered9 votes

One of the most annoying ones that I personally encounter the most isn't really explicitly listed here. It sort of falls under stealing CS, but I'll add it myself for the purpose of the thread.

Forcing/Stealing Roles in Game -- includes actions like going to and playing mid lane alongside the actual team mid laner when it is not your role, attempting to share farm and XP

Rules are very hard to do for this one, more of an explanation of a solution works a lot better (perhaps someone can help make rules from it).

Some things to consider

  • For ranked queues, sometimes players will trade roles and a player not given a certain lane will lane there in game.
  • Off meta duo lanes are possible, and not always a form of trolling.
  • Things like lane swaps can happen.
  • Eventually players will leave lanes, and later on players may push lanes together as groups or a full team.
  • Extended fights in a certain lane, even during laning phase, could be misinterpreted as trying to force a duo lane.

Some things I've thought of doing

  • Disabling any sort of detection when the team is a five man premade. Strategies and roles are decided within that premade, there is a very low chance that a member will troll and not be expelled from the group afterward, minimizing those sort of cases.
  • The ability to check "switched roles" or "duo lane" in champion select. This would be a system where players could say a word in chat, and if both parties say it the system understands that there is a mutually accepted strategy and not trolling. Or even a check box if you want it to be simpler.
  • A preliminary trigger if a player picks a champion normally played in a role they are not assigned. This isn't triggering any punishment, it is simply a first stage tick box so the system can consider the next possible issue if the player is trolling.

That's all I've got. I considered things like detecting if a player has a certain cs/min from a lane other than their's, however what came to mind is Singed double proxying both top and mid lane and then triggering it by accident. Thoughts to get this further along?

Subdue3 votes

{quoted}

One of the most annoying ones that I personally encounter the most isn't really explicitly listed here. It sort of falls under stealing CS, but I'll add it myself for the purpose of the thread.

Forcing/Stealing Roles in Game -- includes actions like going to and playing mid lane alongside the actual team mid laner when it is not your role, attempting to share farm and XP

Rules are very hard to do for this one, more of an explanation of a solution works a lot better (perhaps someone can help make rules from it).

Some things to consider

  • For ranked queues, sometimes players will trade roles and a player not given a certain lane will lane there in game.
  • Off meta duo lanes are possible, and not always a form of trolling.
  • Things like lane swaps can happen.
  • Eventually players will leave lanes, and later on players may push lanes together as groups or a full team.
  • Extended fights in a certain lane, even during laning phase, could be misinterpreted as trying to force a duo lane.

Some things I've thought of doing

  • Disabling any sort of detection when the team is a five man premade. Strategies and roles are decided within that premade, there is a very low chance that a member will troll and not be expelled from the group afterward, minimizing those sort of cases.

  • The ability to check "switched roles" or "duo lane" in champion select. This would be a system where players could say a word in chat, and if both parties say it the system understands that there is a mutually accepted strategy and not trolling. Or even a check box if you want it to be simpler.

  • A preliminary trigger if a player picks a champion normally played in a role they are not assigned. This isn't triggering any punishment, it is simply a first stage tick box so the system can consider the next possible issue if the player is trolling.

That's all I've got. I considered things like detecting if a player has a certain cs/min from a lane other than their's, however what came to mind is Singed double proxying both top and mid lane and then triggering it by accident. Thoughts to get this further along?

My initial thoughts are from the perspective of a jungler. If I happen across a lane where both laners have backed, or better yet, after a successful gank where my teammate recalls, I'm going to farm it. I'm going to shove that lane right to the enemy turret both to take advantage of the Gold/EXP and also to deny Gold/EXP from the opponent when they return to lane.

Aside from that, what about lane switching that occurs after the game has started? What if the enemy team has an odd setup, such a Swain Mid and Zed Top (when you'd usually expect the opposite) creating a big mismatch, and your top and mid lane switch to compensate?

And then of course, laners also quite frequently farm jungle camps, sometimes with the help of the jungler in the case of blue buff, for example. How do you account for that in the rule set?

Let's also note that the checkbox solution is one that does not evolve / grow with the system. Are we going to implement a checkbox that needs to be ticked for every single strategy that the players must actively managed both in champ select and in game?

Remember, the goal of this exercise is to determine a ruleset that effectively catches troll behavior without penalizing those that aren't trolling, and I think the issues listed above are quite normal behaviors that would trigger any rules that involve farming in the wrong area.

Taeyang734 votes

"Stealing cs"

Did I miss it somewhere in the ToS that creeps are [only] for designated champions, or are we trying to tell people how they have to play the game now, as well?

League seeming more and more like a police state.

Also, how do you prove that someone is INTENTIONALLY missing skillshots? Lmao

That's the main problem with WHY they have such a hard time dealing with these types of trolls in the first place.

Sorry if you covered that already, btw...I skimmed, but I'll be honest I didn't actually read the entire novel.

seanyen4 votes

people should get banned when they say some shit like:

<insert excuse>, it's only flex.

why play ranked at all if you only want to troll and not take the match seriously.....

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

If they say anything like that they deserved to be punished immediately. They fuck the team comp like it's a professional porn star, and say "It's only norms lul". They be jackasses, and say "it's only bots lul".

What people need to learn is that it doesn't matter what mode it is, you don't get to troll.

Andrey03451 votes

Am I allowed to play Full AD Gragas roaming support in norms though? Even if I'm trying to win.

h5LYF41Lam4 votes

riot has no intention of catching trolls,they never did and they never will,they only put up a bot that finds keywords in your chatlogs to ban flamers.

Subdue9 votes

{quoted}

riot has no intention of catching trolls,they never did and they never will,they only put up a bot that finds keywords in your chatlogs to ban flamers.

See, this isn't constructive at all.

h5LYF41Lam4 votes

you can send a ticket to riot support with a teamate who obviously trolled the game from minute 1 till the end of the game and they will not do anything.Riot will never actualy do anything about trolls,they only care about extreme occasions of players trolling dozens of games and streamers for public stunts.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Hey buddy, we can tell you're upset. You must have had a terrible experience with Riot Support.

But that's not always the case for everyone. I've had plenty of pleasant and respectful discussions within my support tickets.

It is possible to have a positive experience, but to do so you must first conduct yourself in a positive manner.

Xonra1 votes

I've had nothing but robots. I've responded to robot responses and gotten the exact same response but from a different signature somehow.

I'm sure they are good with like "I lost my account, got hacked" stuff, but they just robot post with reports, and tell you to use the in game and move on.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

They have to be very careful about reports via support tickets. Players report others out of sheer salt all the time, imagine what would happen if all those players turned to support tickets to try to get the person who they are mad at banned... Of course they are going to give blanket responses and not appear to be very receptive. Anything else would invite a barrage of support tickets.

SiffLort4 votes

However not constructive, it couldn't be more true.

Kei1433 votes

The thing first thing about these systems is defining "troll".

Using "taking CS" in general, let me throw in some arguements / questions.

The hardest part of this category is the community defined META, where the support operates on low budget. There is also a low MMR META and high MMR META.

** Is a person taking a support role trolling if they take CS? **

Excluding the obvious relic shield line here are some extra questions I ask:

  1. If a adc sucks (positioning and ability to CS), can a support (using mage supports as easiest example) take all the CS and become the AP carry? Is the same idea trolling if the support was a Janna and decided to build as marksman?

  2. If the support believes that the macro call should be the shove the wave and the adc disagrees. If the support were to act on their strategic decision and kill all the minions so the wave would shove, is that trolling? Keep in mind that wave management is a higher level MMR macro strategy, so a low MMR players may think it's trolling.

  3. The ADC blames the support for a mistake (it could be the support's mistake, it could be the adc's mistake), the support decides to take CS from that point on, is that trolling?

  4. If 2 of the 3 things mentioned above happen at the same time, is that trolling?

  5. If a support takes the CS that the ADC can't take (either poor AA timing or just not in lane), is that trolling?

Is other flamers / JG taking CS in another lane trolling?

  1. If they failed a gank / roam and decided to tax the lane, is that trolling?

  2. If 2 people arrive at the same lane after laning phase is done to meet with a giant wave, if the person with huge AoE takes the wave, is that trolling?

Alot of what the community thinks is trolling (think top lane soraka) is not really trolling. There may be a higher understanding of strategy required before they understand whether it was trolling (think Singed's unique play style).

Persoanlly, I don't think taking CS is considered trolling.

Andrey03451 votes

There may be a higher understanding of strategy required before they understand whether it was trolling (think Singed's unique play style).

I get flamed so much for trolling (and probably reported) when I play proxy Singed, people just don't realise that for it to work they must play well too and while enemy team wastes huge amounts of time 1v5 catching me on top lane so I don't push all the way down to their nexus towers, they just farm and watch me run while they could take drake/baron or push mid.

The King Discord3 votes

Stealing CS Stealing Jungle Camps is not trolling people need gold too

OHminus2 votes

If the support Soraka steals my red buff level 1 and then proceeds to follow me around trying to steal my other camps, I will report her.

Taking jungle camps isn't trolling? Pffft. Try playing jungle and see how frustrating it actually is to have basically 4/6 of your camps not there because laners selfishly think that wraiths/gromp/krugs are theirs.

Hyperiön2 votes

{quoted}

If the support Soraka steals my red buff level 1 and then proceeds to follow me around trying to steal my other camps, I will report her.

Taking jungle camps isn't trolling? Pffft. Try playing jungle and see how frustrating it actually is to have basically 4/6 of your camps not there because laners selfishly think that wraiths/gromp/krugs are theirs.

One doesn't watch high tier play then. The laners take the camps when their lanes are pushed under the enemy turret so they aren't over extended and gankable.

The jungler has a lot of options for gold. A lot.

OHminus1 votes

Not a lot when the laners throw hissy fits whenever I step into their lane to take minions.

If top/mid take krugs/wraiths/wolves like they did for me a couple games back, and no buffs are up, then I'm left with taking gromp/scuttle, forcing a gank (risky) or counterjungling (also risky, especially if lanes aren't pushed). Taking that many camps is basically shoving the middle finger in my face and saying "fuck you, we need the gold more than you".

And yes, I do watch high tier play, and realize it's ok for laners to take camps when lanes are pushed. But don't be a dick to the jungler and just randomly leave lane to start taking krugs 5 min in.

Casual Dude1 votes

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Xonra1 votes

That is kind of a dick thing to do, and not really helping anyone but just you, and putting your jungler behind for no reason. Bet you'd throw a hissy fit if they came into your lane to take your cs along with all the jungle to put themselves ahead at the expense of you.

Casual Dude1 votes

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Andrey03451 votes

But it won't help you. How often do you use smite in lane? You are just wasting a summ instead of having a potential to kill enemy laner and get way more gold (ignite), potential to survive burst and win fight (barrier) and other things which would be FAR more useful in mid-late game rather than just a smite. And why do you need smite to take camps? You are just slightly boosting camp clear by like 3-4 seconds and getting some health, while you don't build jungle item, which makes smite even more useless in later game.

Casual Dude1 votes

[deleted]

OHminus1 votes

At the expense of the jungler. Have fun getting no ganks while I try to get myself gold at your expense.

Casual Dude1 votes

[deleted]

OHminus1 votes

"lane advantage"

What's the advantage? Having slightly more gold for yourself? Congratulations!! Now I get to watch you die to your lane opponent who took a legitimate combat summoner spell like ignite/heal/barrier/exhaust or get pushed in by a guy with flash/teleport.

There is no reason to take smite mid.

Casual Dude1 votes

[deleted]

OHminus1 votes

Oh, so we're rank shaming now?

Beginning the game 2 levels up is huge. But at what cost?

You think you're going to be up 2 levels when you clear raptors -> red? Pfft. You're going to be level 2 and 2/3. And during the time it takes you to kill raptors -> red, mid lane pushes at least 1 wave and a half in. Giving them basically level 2. So come again, where's the exp advantage? This argument is stupid.

Let's look at the meta mid laners and see how they clear those 2 camps with smite:

Orianna - sucks. Her q can hit all the creeps, but she takes so much damage that she's forced to smite the big raptor to survive. Meaning she can't clear red.

Syndra - smilar. Her q can hit a lot of the creeps for more damage but she runs out of mana quickly and is forced to smite raptor level 1.

Kassadin - pffft. Not going to even delve into this one.

Fizz - AOE clear sucks so can't start raptors. Even if he goes blue -> red, that's a huge time sink.

Ahri - similar to Ori and Syndra but even worse.

All other meta mid laners - similar to the Ori/Syndra situation or the Fizz situation

The only champ on which this might work is Nunu, and that's because Nunu as a built in smite already. But again, his AOE clear sucks, so he can't cheese raptors -> red and go into lane (well, not at least without being fucked over by the enemy mid who's probably full health from you know, not clearing jungle camps).

This argument was stupid from the start because your points had no backing/evidence behind them. If you fking want my jungle camps, take jungle and I'll mid. Don't pick mid with smite and then take my camps, essentially screwing us both over. And if this ever does happen, I will report the player that did this.

Casual Dude1 votes

[deleted]

OHminus1 votes

Ok I'm sure you're a GREAT player. Wow. Diamond? Great for you. Just because I'm silver doesn't mean I'm not right on this matter. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the jungler just came to your lane and duo mid? This is pretty much the equivalent of that.

notice me Sin pi1 votes

if my jungler smites at 391 HP and ends up not getting the red buff, and proceeds to flame thruout the entire game for his own mistake, i will report him.

OHminus1 votes

Smiting the first camp? LUL

Nobody ever smites a camp while getting a leash. Especially from a Soraka/Nami/Janna, who heals/shields you during the clear of the first buff. Thus, if the Soraka starts autoing the red buff at low hp and ends up taking it, I will report that shit.

notice me Sin pi1 votes

nobody ever smites first camp during leash except for few select retard junglers i've had, who proceeded to flame me for the entire game for stealing their camp

Andrey03451 votes

There is nothing wrong with taking those camps for laners. Jungler can always counterjungle, hold lanes and farm minions, gank lanes, so much things to do and ways to get gold while laners can only farm minions. So they take camps to catch up plus while taking camps they won't get ganked.

OHminus1 votes

Jungler can always counterjungle

Junglers can only counterjungle when the team is ahead and lanes are pushed enough so there's no collapse from laners. If my laners are karthus and nasus, I'm not going to go into my enemy's top side jungle. It's not happening.

hold lanes and farm minions

Ironic isn't it? The laners I always play with always get salty when I hold their lanes, saying it's not my gold. Welp, that's silver for you.

gank lanes

Ganking only results in gold when it results in a kill. Well, I could tax, but again, laners in silver (and probably elsewhere as well) hate that.

laners can only farm minions

Yes, and they get 2-3 waves per minute. If they get a bad matchup, they let the wave push and try to farm it out under tower. Riot specifically released a video recently saying how many turret shots certain minions can take before dying to turret. Also, while the wave is near their tower, it's in a good position for me to set up a gank. Win/win?

while taking camps they won't get ganked

Lmao. You contradicted yourself. Junglers can counterjungle, can't they? The chicken/wraith (no matter what it's still wraiths to me) camp is especially vulnerable to enemy jungler pressure. If mid tries to take chickens while behind, without smite, and the enemy jungler comes (especially if it's Elise, Lee Sin - especially Lee Sin), that forces the mid laner off the camp. Essentially, they got pressured by the enemy jungler. Don't you think once the lane is in that bad of a position (essentially, to the point where the laner has to catch up), the outer turret is already gone and they're allowed to farm at their tier 2?

Late game, I have no problem with laners taking camps. But during my first 3-5 clears (essentially the duration of the laning phase - mid game) I would like to have that farm, especially if I can't take a laner's farm.

MUSHROOM MIDGET3 votes

i like your idea, but many of those things - 'stealing' cs, 'stealing' jungle camps, avoiding teamfights, afk farming jungle are not against any rules for league of legends.

they have a program already to catch afks and intentional feeders, although i have seen the intentional feed one ban innocent players already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfAT74x2Ls&t=1300s

fake accidental deaths and intentionally missing skillshots.... i know it definitely happens and it would be nice to catch people doing that but i just dont see any way to prove those things are intentional. Especially for a cpu program.

Squey3 votes

Is person in support position? yes Did person select gold income item? Does person have any summoner spells besides flash/ignite/exhaust? Does person hit minions more then enemies with abilities? Does person spend at least 50% of there time in proximity with adc? Does person buy sightstone? Does person use sightstone at least once per 10 min? Does person take tower shots lv 1 or 2? Does person chat excessively? Does person chat at all? Does person build Carry only items like deathcap? Does person have lowest or 2nd lowest vision score on team?

notice me Sin pi2 votes

{quoted}

Is person in support position? yes Did person select gold income item? Does person have any summoner spells besides flash/ignite/exhaust? Does person hit minions more then enemies with abilities? Does person spend at least 50% of there time in proximity with adc? Does person buy sightstone? Does person use sightstone at least once per 10 min? Does person take tower shots lv 1 or 2? Does person chat excessively? Does person chat at all? Does person build Carry only items like deathcap? Does person have lowest or 2nd lowest vision score on team?

to add on to that: does the player do 4 or more things above that go against conventional supporting?

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

Is person in support position? yes Did person select gold income item? Does person have any summoner spells besides flash/ignite/exhaust? Does person hit minions more then enemies with abilities? Does person spend at least 50% of there time in proximity with adc? Does person buy sightstone? Does person use sightstone at least once per 10 min? Does person take tower shots lv 1 or 2? Does person chat excessively? Does person chat at all? Does person build Carry only items like deathcap? Does person have lowest or 2nd lowest vision score on team?

So basically, any support that doesn't want to play as a meta support is a troll? Basically what you're saying with your list here.

Squey1 votes

in ranked u play to win otherwise ur just holding your team back. Playing as a non meta support or what sounds like from you would be a never has been or will be meta support is hurting your team severely. You start by tilting your adc hard then it catches on to the rest of your team and by team fight phase its already hurt your team more then a 0-7-0 top laner would. The later the game gets, the most likely the game will end up lost due to lack of vision, support itemization, and help for the actual carries. Riot already bans people who negatively impact there team from the support position like smite singed for example. No1 wants to play with this kind of "support". No one cares about a support carry because they want an adc with items to peel for. Do what u want in normals but leave ranked for people that actually care and try.

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

in ranked u play to win otherwise ur just holding your team back. Playing as a non meta support or what sounds like from you would be a never has been or will be meta support is hurting your team severely. You start by tilting your adc hard then it catches on to the rest of your team and by team fight phase its already hurt your team more then a 0-7-0 top laner would. The later the game gets, the most likely the game will end up lost due to lack of vision, support itemization, and help for the actual carries. Riot already bans people who negatively impact there team from the support position like smite singed for example. No1 wants to play with this kind of "support". No one cares about a support carry because they want an adc with items to peel for. Do what u want in normals but leave ranked for people that actually care and try.

Innovation isn't recognized until it's proven successful. Under your criteria, Veigar Support, Brand Support, Fiddle Support, Morgana Support, Zyra Support - a whole host of traditional AP carries that found effectiveness in the Support role might never have been discovered.

Your definition of "Troll" is far too wide. A "Troll" is someone who is trying to make your team lose. Someone's chosen champion or style does not make them a "Troll".

Squey1 votes

except all of those mages do not fit under trolling in my list because they still play like a support for there carry instead of focusing all on themselves. They buy the gold income items, support there adc, peel, ward, ect. Never did i say that if a support failed at any one of the questions i mentioned that they are a troll. But instead its like the person below me said, if they did like at least 4 of these then they more then likely are.

Also a you will notice that i didnt list anything that specifies which champion to play. Its all about HOW they play.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

except all of those mages do not fit under trolling in my list because they still play like a support for there carry instead of focusing all on themselves. They buy the gold income items, support there adc, peel, ward, ect. Never did i say that if a support failed at any one of the questions i mentioned that they are a troll. But instead its like the person below me said, if they did like at least 4 of these then they more then likely are.

Also a you will notice that i didnt list anything that specifies which champion to play. Its all about HOW they play.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/adolebitques-support-brand-492545

Except as you can see those mages don't build like supports either. They build like carries with a sightstone.

Xonra1 votes

Some of that is super irrelevant such as deathcap or "chatting at all". You don't need to chat to support. buying a deathcap (though I don't think it is a ....great choice), is far from not supporting or trolling.

Andrey03451 votes

Deathcap is a great item on Soraka. It just makes her a great healer and is just one of items Soraka should always buy in later game. So there is nothing wrong with buying deathcap, having a lot of ap doesn't mean you are no longer a true support.

Squey1 votes

spending 3600g ( its 3600g right now right?) is alot of money especially in the support position. Its also a terrible item in general to get unless you have a bunch of ap already. And while sure it makes ur heals better, item 3107 item 3504 actually increase ur healing by a similar amount and provid way more in other useful stats for you and your team. Never is a deathcap the best item choice on soraka when she is in support position.

Andrey03451 votes

spending 3600g ( its 3600g right now right?) is alot of money especially in the support position.

I said as a later game item, so when you already got all your other supp items it's not bad to get some money to buy deathcap.

Yes, those items do increase healing but the AP deathcap provides increases that bonus even further + those items have ap in them which makes deathcap bonus worth more. And, including the fact that Soraka has decent ap scalings, Deathcap and all those support items will make her heals huge indeed.

I'm not saying to go AP instead of supp items, I'm saying that it's a good idea to buy Deathcap as 6th item, after 5 other support ones.

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