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The mid year mage update fixed many issues, but missed the biggest outlier.

Melledoneus··101 votes·4,548 views

Karthus is, at the moment, one tier higher in mid lane winrate than Urgot mid. He has no way to deal with people who buy boots, since it takes a simple sidestep to dodge a Karthus Q. He dies too fast in team fights and his passive form becomes an area opponents can ignore if they have a shred of mobility or defense, or if they're just passing through.

And his ultimate is one of the least impactful compared to its 5 minute cooldown, because you can negate it with something as simple as popping a potion biscuit beforehand. You have to get the exact calculations right, and be at least 100 damage over your opponents' HP (if they're squishy) to kill them. It doesn't even have a global quote to FEEL impactful.

Not to mention that Karthus is supposed to be THE late game battle mage, but lacks the proper tools to get there. His laning phase has been made painful since the W nerfs, making his W an over-glorified MR reduction zone. Karthus' bugs regarding his spontaneous and sporadic Q delays have been thoroughly ignored by Riot, and his E feels like it lacks any interactivity or use outside dealing an extra 100 damage to that Zed that dived you at level 6.

Karthus is one of the most suffering mages, and his win rate will now plummet since the changes to RoA hurt him as well. I love the new changes in the MYMU, don't get me wrong, but Karthus feels left out when he could've had the opportunity to shine.

92 Comments

Siyther12 votes

i think they didnt include him cause he needs more than a little help he would be a major overhual i think Sion /Poppyy level

TheOvermind11 votes

You pretty much cover all of his issues atm and I really think Riot has left him in the dumpster for far too long. They need to make some changes to this champion. In order to solve the problems you have listed I have time and time again proposed the following :

-Make his Q explosion delay slightly longer at earlier levels to ensure he isn't as strong in the early levels ( which is what Korean Karthus mains are abusing, the Karthus lv1 DPS and what forced rito into nerfing him in 5.23) and slightly shorter when maxed to ensure reliable DPS in teamfights which is what a true late gmae hypercarry like him deserve.

-Add the new grounded debuff on his W. PERIOD. Now 80% of the roster no longer counter him. Also it's no OP since the W slow is pathetically weak on its own.

-Buff The AP ratio on his Ult. 0.6 on a Nuke that gets completely shut down by invulnerabilities which the game has plenty of, and cut in Half by MR is very little. Might need higher but 0.7 seems like a reasonable ratio .

  • Add a stacking minigame on his E, to enhance the "I get stronger with every soul I capture" theme. My idea: he permantly gains 1 HP with every minion kill/monster kill/ assist, and 3 Hp for every takedown and large/epic mosnter kill. So we are looking at an overall bonus of 300-400 HP in the lategame which makes him tankier and allows him to survive a bit longer be it in the backline or frontline. There.
Melledoneus5 votes

Great ideas overall! Great job!

But I think the health stacking is a little off. Something more original could be in order, such as a charge up effect for his ultimate. The more unit kills he gets, the more charges he gets. He expends his charges to add damage to his ultimate.

Robert Smith2 votes

Mana gain would be something Unique like OP wanted and would benefit him more in game. Instead of needed to build mana he can build other options since he stacks it. So far we have: Ad stacking=Nasus Health stacking=Sion AP stacking=Veigar Thresh Armor stacking=Thresh

If Karthus was given the ability to stack mana with a passive then it would benefit him with his E since it drains mana and item 3003 if he builds it which gives AP off of maximum mana

TheOvermind1 votes

Your Idea is actually brilliant, unique , effective , and fits the champion. I really like it.

LoL Ergo Urgot6 votes

Downvote this. Karthus, Viktor, ext. are not apart of this update because they are unique game play wise. Riot has stated that once the new items have kicked in, they will asses where Karth, Swain, Viktor, Orianna, ect. stand.

Melledoneus23 votes

Except Swain got an update and all those listed mages have synergies with the new items besides Karthus.

"Downvote this."

KING OF MASKS11 votes

To be fair, Swain's "update" was just another point-and-click CC removal.

The Sword Saint6 votes

Mage update has nothing to do with balance or power shifts, it's just about making mages more distinct so that there's a reason to choose one in specific for reasons other than raw numbers or personal preference. Karthus is already a very different champion than any others so there's no reason for him to get any work during this specific update.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

This

Adolf Hit R1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ewghq61w,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-04-20T19:51:55.765+0000)

Mage update has nothing to do with balance or power shifts, it's just about making mages more distinct so that there's a reason to choose one in specific for reasons other than raw numbers or personal preference. Karthus is already a very different champion than any others so there's no reason for him to get any work during this specific update.

But if they're already looking at a bunch of similar champions and changing most of the items that the entire class cares about, it makes sense to touch up champions who are struggling.

Especially when they literally haven't been in any way relevant since season two.

The Sword Saint1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adolf Hit R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ewghq61w,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2016-04-22T18:08:14.767+0000)

But if they're already looking at a bunch of similar champions and changing most of the items that the entire class cares about, it makes sense to touch up champions who are struggling.

Especially when they literally haven't been in any way relevant since season two.

I see what you're saying but, there are only so many people put onto a project at a time and they sued the resources they had to tackle making the big changes to a few champs and a few minor changes to some others that they had time for, but the goal was still to do with diversity and not power. It's the balance teams job to take a look at champ performance and adjust numbers, these guys formed a temporary team to split up the strengths and weaknesses of a few champions who kind of do the same job as other champions in order to give a reason to pick one over the others.

When they do they next class pass later on this year on divers or assassins, I expect them to also have a focused goal that will decide who they touch and how much they change them and not take into account things like balance state when making those decisions.

SFGG MamaBrendyn5 votes

Everytime I play Karthus I shred the enemy team. Farming with him is never an issue. You can use your Q and the passive on your E to reasonably cs and sustain your mana. Using his Q requires a skill called "Movement Prediction". If you can land skillshots you can land his Q. Aim for where they're most likely going, not where they are. Also, I'm frequently at my team's frontline with him. His E is amazing when you're in a group of enemies, yes you might die, but you've got 7 extra seconds to do damage after you die. As long as your team understands what you can do there shouldn't b any issue using that to it's fullest advantage. His W is an amazing slow, for both kiting opponents and catching those who decide to flee your destruction. Now his ult... If you have decent map awareness, it's brutal. Especially in the lane phase. You can literally roam top to give that lane aid, cast your ult, and go in up top. By doing this, you've made your presence felt in every lane at one time. No other champion can do this. At my full build, Karthus's ult does well over 1200 damage...to every enemy champion...there is NO REASON to reduce the cooldown on this ult at all. It takes proper timing and awareness to take advantage of this skill, including the decision to save it for when you die or to use it before your team engeges to soften the team up a bit. Karthus does not need to be reworked, he creates more than enough havoc as it is, it just takes a bit of practice and skill to use him effectively...Like most champions in the game...There is also a time and a place to pick Karthus. Yes there are certain matchups that he's more prone to losing, but again, that's with any champion and that's what keeps the game balanced. Don't pick a poke/sustain mage to go up against a mobile burst assassin if you can help it. It's pretty simple.

Melledoneus18 votes

I never said Karthus is hard to play. He is just simply lacking, even in the hands of masters. In Diamond+, which is high elo, he has one of the lowest winrates because movement prediction isn't as effective against opponents with that much control over positioning, movement, and map awareness. Karthus just happens to slight fill a niche better filled by mages like Orianna, Veigar, and Brand.

ADC is a Meme5 votes

I feel like he needs a rework, honestly the only people who can actually utilize karthus are scripters for the most part. A karthus main who doesn't script is putting himself at a huge disadvantage just for using a champion they love, not due to a lack of skill.

EDIT: A really small rework, nothing really big. (brand level?)

Tridem3 votes

ProTip for Karthus: Don't play him into Fizz.

Tentacle Love5 votes

I tell you what Karthus needs more than anything.

If he's in the game, he should sing. Every time any champion dies. It would be the most glorious buff.

Solice3 votes

I agree with you, but Ive actually played Karthus exclusively against zeds and won every time because hes just too safe a farmer for zed to get any harass/kills on Karthus, and I take exhaust which completely counters his early game damage, and hes especially easy when the enemy is very bad at assessing when to go in, which happens a lot.

BUT all the times I've first picked Karthus, he is completely useless against someone designed to keep you out of lane, like, other mages like LeBlanc, Karma, and the most common counter I see picked, for some reason, is Syndra. And they all take barrier, every time, because its on less a cooldown than your ult. Which is very very annoying.

Meowstic F2 votes

Make him cast his ult automatically when he dies regardless of it being on cd or not.

Melledoneus39 votes

Ok, let's not break Karthus and enforce a suicidal playstyle.

Meowstic F1 votes

It will not break him. And it won't really change his playstyle. Ennemies will have to choose between lettin him live while doing more damage or kill him and get ulted (removing him the ability to cast anything else).

Melledoneus13 votes

Except opponents usually focus Karthus during skirmishes and draw the fight elsewhere. Also, refreshing his ult means he can ult, die, then ult again.

Myozthirirn1 votes

no way Hes talking about replacing his passive for a "fake R" on death. It wont affect actual R in any possible way.

Melledoneus9 votes

I still don't see how it doesn't affect the aforementioned strategy.

Jari4 votes

He means you ult, suicide, and the passive makes ult again because that's what he said it should do.

Basically it forces Karthus to literally kill himself to do good. That's not healthy.

bill841 votes

Have you ever seen Karthus ARAM? I sure has hell would not want this moved to SR either.

Melledoneus1 votes

Let's be honest, he's the least annoying mage to deal with on ARAM.

bill843 votes

ARAM: the only place where mages get to feel good about themselves.

Spoofghoul1 votes

i agree he should not ult on death

just swap is q with his ult

Requim on a 1 second cooldown seems fair

Twitch Chat2 votes

I rolled aram karthus yesterday and it felt like his q delay was randomized anywhere between .5s and .75s. Probably be a fine hero if that gets fixed.

Melledoneus4 votes

Hero.

Dank MemesNVape2 votes

How constructive.

Melledoneus2 votes

Thanks! :D

Critmaster Garen2 votes

my guess is they want to see what the new items do for him fist.

Llanite2 votes

To be fair, his ult can easily shave off 1/2 health of most squishy, even without being there.

You can use your ult to assist teammates in skirmishes or ruins a dragon fight or force the other team to back off from contesting objectives. Think outside of the box, it's more versatile than just to KS or finish off survivors.

DarkRitual1 votes

It's like when Caitlyn's won't ult a 2/3 health adc/half health support to push them out of lane

Llanite1 votes

They would just potion/ hang around to regen health, hence, wasting the ability.

The correct comparison is Karthus ult everytime his R is up, which isn't what I said, I said use it strategically, a teammate is fighting a losing duel? Ult and he might have won, and you earn an assist. Their almost-dead team just won a fight and run to dragon? Ult and they won't have enough health to take it.

And Cait/Ez/Jinx/Soraka will ult to assist teammate if they won't make it there in time. The ones that save the thing for the sole purpose of ks won't make it out of bronze.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

It makes me wonder if Karthus has a full kit rework on the horizon. Sometimes they avoid making changes because they are working on the kit behind the scenes.

Mirkhail2 votes

When i look at win rates karthus is not so low, a lot of champion have lower win rates than him. I think he can use some changes but we should wait the new item.

MasqureMan1 votes

High mobility is Karthus' weakness. He has methods to deal with them, like his E and a well placed W since his Q will deal a lot of damage if he hits it. You have to also remember that he gets his R, which is global and unmissable no matter how fast someone is. If you give him a way to absolutely deal with high mobility champs (And I'm not sure what that is beyond his W) then you'll have a champion with very few weaknesses. I personally think he's balanced where he is.

Melledoneus3 votes

His W is on par with the strength of Talon's E slow. And that in itself is awful. It doesn't deal with mobility except slow movement speed for a brief moment.

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

His W is on par with the strength of Talon's E slow. And that in itself is awful. It doesn't deal with mobility except slow movement speed for a brief moment.

So you want a Karthus who can deal with mobile champs with some stronger W, deal with enemies in his face with Q and E, and deal with anyone on the map with R, and be able to cast after death, and have a safe early game and strong late game?

Melledoneus4 votes

I want a Karthus that can actually do his job properly without having to be babysat. I want a Karthus whose CC actually does something. I want a Karthus who can survive in lane if he's good, rather than dealing with these mobile mid laners that ignore the subpar slow his only utility provides. I want a Karthus that has reliable damage that doesn't decide whether it will detonate in that second or not.

MrLlamaWaffle1 votes

Karthus players complaining when Fiddlesticks is getting a new totally useless passive, nerf to drain, nerf to fear, and some small QoL fixes on Crowstorm...please

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Karthus players complaining when Fiddlesticks is getting a new totally useless passive, nerf to drain, nerf to fear, and some small QoL fixes on Crowstorm...please

fiddles new passive isnt useless. it gives him a movement speed boost right after he ults.

his crows can bounce more than 5 times, and his drain actually looks like it deals a really large amount of damage.

MrLlamaWaffle2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ewghq61w,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-04-20T20:11:18.544+0000)

fiddles new passive isnt useless. it gives him a movement speed boost right after he ults.

his crows can bounce more than 5 times, and his drain actually looks like it deals a really large amount of damage.

So now I can be displaced/CCd even quicker? lol please. Moving faster doesn't save you from getting headbutted out from a fight or getting blown up in any less time. Especially considering that you have to hourglass almost immediately after ulting so you don't get blown up in half a second.

Drain is worse unless you get a full duration drain off, which never happens.

My crows can bounce 7 times now. So what? My clears are slightly more reliable? Fiddle still is the WORST JUNGLER IN THE GAME at securing buffs. No way to protect yourself from getting invaded and itll be even worse after the enemy team can see your buff timers no matter what.

Melledoneus2 votes

It's a trade-off to being one of the best mages at making enemies flee faster than if Poppy ulted them.

Robert Smith1 votes

If you fear drain and crow a target the crows priorities the drain target over everything else. This might mean more burst damage

MrLlamaWaffle1 votes

{quoted}

If you fear drain and crow a target the crows priorities the drain target over everything else. This might mean more burst damage

People keep making this argument and it makes no sense. Fiddles biggest weaknesses are his over reliance on blue buff, he is the single most easy-to-invade jungler in the entire game with some of the worst dueling potential. How do any of his changes help any of that? they don't.

If someone makes it into my jungle, which any decent jungler will against fiddle, it doesn't matter if my crows prioritize my drain target because it's only going to bounce once when I'm dueling lol

It also isn't that great in teamfights considering fiddle will rarely ever be draining in a 5v5. You crowstorm, Q, E, then hourglass because by that time you're going to get blown up. No time to drain.

It's obvious that the drain priority was to help his clear. So instead of crows hitting the 3 small wraiths and the large one once, it'll bounce between a small, large, small large, small large. But again, it seems as if Riot doesn't even play this champion because when you're jungling fiddle you should be Eing first to put it on cooldown faster. None of these changes make any sense and it's clear he needs a rework.

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