Boards›Gameplay

@Riot, have you thought about making TWO iterations of Rylais?

Malicious Metal··91 votes·4,075 views

The way Riot's currently trying to find the answer to this whole Rylais dilemma turns out to be two different paths, each of them severely impacting a large group of champions if it were to go through.

On one Hand there's a high AP, Mana, CDR solution for Rylais, catering to burst/kite mages

the other's a tankier/utility approach with low AP and more hp

Both are valid strategies but both have the problem of screwing over an other group of champions Be it Viktor Azir Cassiopeia Or Mordekaiser Vladimir Rumble AurelionSol

But why do we HAVE to do it this way, to create other balance problems instead of just finding the perfect middle ground?

Why don't we make Rylais a "component" that builds into TWO items?

I suggest something like this:

New!: Rylais crystal scepter builds out of blasting wand + 840 gold; total cost; 1700 gold Unique passive; Chilly; Spells slow enemy champions by 10% (20 second CD) Think of it as item 3144 as it being a component that will build into two variations

New!; Rylais Arch-scepter (100 AP, 10-20% cdr, 300 mana) Builds out of Rylais crystal scepter, mana crystal and fiendish codex + 450 gold Unique passive; Chill; Spells apply a slow ranging from 20% to 15%, based on spell type

New!; Rylais Flail (500 Hp, 60 Ap) Builds out of Rylais Crystal scepter + Giant's belt + 600 gold Unique passive; Chill; Spells apply a slow ranging from 30% to 20%, based on spell type

Now, I'm not on the balance team so these items may not exactly be the best in terms of stats but I hope you get the gist of it; Providing two options for two demographics of champions, fulfilling different roles and catering to different needs

83 Comments

Deneviel24 votes

You miss the prob man

Viktor Cassiopeia Azir don't need Rya at all to works ... their kit have already all the tools they needs. They just overabuse the permaslow

One of the mainly reason Azir got overnerfed imo it's how easy for him was to triple hit and TL with Q and Rya

Then we have

AurelionSol Rumble Vladimir they needs item 3116 but they can work even without it ..... if some compensation are given

And then we have

Mordekaiser who absolutely need it

Malicious Metal23 votes

I agree that the three mages don't really "need" rylais but Meddler mentioned the possibility of changing Rylais into either a tanky AP option (my favorite one) or a squishy kite option. Either way there's a 50% chance my favorite champions get completely screwed, or vice versa.

I just suggest that if Riot does want to go through these specialized solutions they should consider adding options for the other group of champs.

That's why I suggest making it two items. One with a bulk of AP and weaker slows and a tankier one with a bulk of health and some ap

The Yetii Rider2 votes

The point of reworking it is that the slow is too universal, and the presence of Scepter in every game is artificially deflating MS as a whole, just as Boots of Swiftness was artificially inflating it.

The item's stats aren't the problem. The item being built on every Mage is. Every Mage could still use either one or the other of the versions you presented. It wouldn't change anything.

Webber885 votes

{quoted}

You miss the prob man

Viktor Cassiopeia Azir don't need Rya at all to works ... their kit have already all the tools they needs. They just overabuse the permaslow

One of the mainly reason Azir got overnerfed imo it's how easy for him was to triple hit and TL with Q and Rya

Then we have

AurelionSol Rumble Vladimir they needs item 3116 but they can work even without it ..... if some compensation are given

And then we have

Mordekaiser who absolutely need it

OK being a Viktor main myself I must say rylais is an essential item to the build now that the AA reset has been removed. And second I like this guy's idea. Makes a greater variety of ways to play champions. It especially works well with riots goal of making Vlad more ap based than health since it allows for him to build based on the situation

However you shouldn't have 2 unique passives say chill despite being different. Also remove the cool down on the initial, and make it a passive not active use so it makes sense that it would remain the same.

ProtestantCaesar1 votes

It would be like the different spellblades being different. They're still unique. Having two unique chills isn't a problem.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

Isn't the weakness of a juggernaut is not to have cc? why do we give morde a 10 second slow when he can one shot a squishie in under 2 seconds? I mean imagine of rylais worked on darius passive? or garen had something similar.

lets not be biased because the guy up there is diamond. morde doesn't need rylais. his intended weakness is to be immobile and not have cc.

Deneviel5 votes

{quoted}

Isn't the weakness of a juggernaut is not to have cc? why do we give morde a 10 second slow when he can one shot a squishie in under 2 seconds? I mean imagine of rylais worked on darius passive? or garen had something similar.

lets not be biased because the guy up there is diamond. morde doesn't need rylais. his intended weakness is to be immobile and not have cc.

all jugger can bishot ADC and have some form of mobility or CC actually :/ you make no sense

Darius Pull Slow ( works with FM )

Garen Silence + Speed buff ( works with FM )

Skarner .... no comment

And then we have Morde ..... As of now the** ONLY** champ in the whole league that got not a single CC or gap close or uncoditioned MS buff ...

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Don't forget how each other Juggernaut has a lot more Movement Speed than Mordekaiser.

I even made this list awhile back to show the differences in Juggernauts, where most of them have CC and/or some type of movement speed boost

Malicious Metal10 votes

Morde's rework was designed having RYLAIS in mind FYI

Poske1 votes

Morde rework was designed having nothing in mind tbh

Errastas4 votes

Have you ever played Mord?

HazyCloud74 votes

The new viktor, who's ult ticks once every 2 seconds and deathray aftershock occurs a second later is totally reliant on Rylai's. His gravity field has a cast time and a delay before it actually activates, it's more of a zone control tool than anything else. Pre-rework you would've been right. Post rework, not at all.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Brand needs it

Lordk0z1 votes

{quoted}

Brand needs it

No, he really doesn't. Why would he?

Troll for Trump1 votes

To hit his only slow-moving projectile CC, his telegraphed W.

crippler381 votes

his q is like an EZ q isn't it?

Troll for Trump2 votes

Ezreal Q: Range: 1150 Speed: 2000

Brand Q: Range:1050 Speed:1550

Range is also a thing, but the projectile speed is key. Most things have a ton of mobility now, and it's impossible to hit without it either being low CD and/or being tailored to CC. Hence Rylais.

Hence why Ezreal almost always needs Iceborn. He can stick with Trinity, but generally, Blue Build is better than Triforce.

A separate reason could be due to Iceborn being a powerful item currently(alongside triforce) and being a good midgame spiker, but the same applies with Rylais as well.

I just got out of a game where I was playing against Brand and Ziggs. Early game, he could hit most of his Qs(had few oppurtunities due to freezing of waves), but basically it would be impossible to hit Q lategame. Boots, dashes, blinks, and % movement speed are frequent. item 3100 item 3285 (for the ZIggs case)item 3142 (Really common)item 3147 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 item 3152 (Generally not used for dodging however, though it can still happen. Basically, every champion has a "dash" option) item 2053 (and items it builds into; Pretty much always ZZ'rot, but Ohmwrecker exists)item 3742

TheUltimateSpear1 votes

Cassiopeia needs item 3116 almost as much as Vlad, Aurelion, and Rumble do. Without item 3116 Cassiopeia can barely effectively keep up with her target while rapid-firing her E. Playing her without it would be extremely stressful; you'd have to perfectly hit Q's and time your E's to succeed. And Cassiopeia's supposed to be a stressful and high-skill cap champ, but not that much so.

Of course, with the current item 3116 she's too much, I won't deny that. But just because she's absurd with the current iteration of Rylai's doesn't mean she doesn't need it to function. She does. But if Rylai's is significantly modified to where it's no longer useful enough for her to buy she's going to need compensation.

She doesn't have long range and a mobility spell like Azir does, and she doesn't have a significant amount of burst and range like Viktor does. The health and slow item 3116 gives keeps her from immediately getting dumpstered by divers as a medium-low range, squishy mage, who has to get in dangerous range and STAY in dangerous range to be effective, as she's also a DPS mage. If item 3116 is nerfed/changed to where it's no longer useful on her, she's going to become useless. Melee's will just dive on her and take out too easily. The grounded effect from W won't be enough, especially now that the range's been reduced.

Venedictos1 votes

I think Rylai's only removes the counterplay that is intended to exist in Azir's, Viktor's and Cassiopeia's kits. I mean, yeah, the item should exist and be available to them as an option, but they shouldn't default to it. They should give up valuable stats in order to acquire it.

Loboros8 votes

I love rylais as it is, it is my favorite item in the game.

Best princess EU7 votes

Give it the zhonya treatment

why are you searching so deeply for nothing?

Rylai: 3200 gold-->3000 gold 400 hp---> 500 hp Ap 100--->60

want to build Rylai? sure, but don't be surprised by being outdamaged by the enemy mage who built more AP item

that's the karma of building utility items.

Bladerunner77772 votes

I agree with this, I like what they did to Zhonya's

Champions that almost rylai on Rylai's such as Azir AurelionSol Vladimir Malzahar already have good scaling so this wouldn't affect them too much (only weaken their powerspike, but they also get it sooner), and also stop aids like Ahri Syndra with rylais

Or they could remove Rylai's and buff AurelionSol (◕‿◕✿)

Spicy Rice1 votes

Honestly, Sol really needs some loving, but rylais stops any attempts to buff him while retaining his current kit

crippler381 votes

isn't Sol really strong right now or am I missing something?

morris11 votes

Not so much outside of pro play.

crippler381 votes

let me get this straight, the guy who can- by existing mind you- do a lot of damage and has a high damage self peel and a decently simple to hit stun, and who has high rotation speed and great farm speed with his w and e, is only good in pro play...

wut

morris11 votes

What's your point? He has a lot of bad match ups, that self peel is unreliable; you don't pick him for his wave clear either, his roaming is ok at best. Taliyah outclasses him in almost everything currently.

crippler381 votes

well that's quite simple, for one he does a lot more aoe damage than taliyah, for two I'm talking his E lets him get to lane and leave really easily letting him power farm to get strong, his ult self peel is pretty reliable anyway, and he has unlike tali a big ol stun. That plus him being able to apply slows by existing in that general area is pretty good.

Don't get me wrong I like tali, I find her ultimate to be great for controlling and her roaming to be great because of her mobility around walls plus the ult and her knockup but sol happens to have more easily confirmed damage that hits more people as well as the mobility passive and better lockdown.

They're both real strong but Sol has the edge in doing damage to multiple people especially if taliyah has someone on her face, granted both of them have pretty meh 'gtfo me' options sol's ult is a much better one than taliyah's knockback (as it should be)

That and well, not having a condition on one of your abilities to do damage is pretty nice (her Q worked ground can get annoying sometimes.)

I get I repeat myself a lot but I'm just saying sol is far from bad and there's a reason da pros like him.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

only if the iteration that keeps its current passive is thrown into the garbage bin.

just get rid of it, and adress the champion kits that use it as a bandaid. rylais passive in its current shape is toxic and not worth keeping around in any form.

Malicious Metal6 votes

Yeah, 40% slows should have never existed to begin with.

30% would be the highest it should ever be :P

Wolfess3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euY79Zg9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-07T09:54:42.075+0000)

Yeah, 40% slows should have never existed to begin with.

30% would be the highest it should ever be :P

Well frozen mallet also has a 40% slow and it procs from autos which are constant and free, no mana cost at all.

whereas rylais requires spells and costs mana, sometimes requiring the champ to wait for cooldowns, but in a sense I do think that rylais needs just slightly less AP and more HP as it should be a utility item like frozen mallet, not a burst mage item. It is borderline just a ROA with no mana and a slow instead, and doesn't require stacking over time.

I usually build Rylais first on annie(used to be Roa but after learning how to manage my mana a bit better, harass better, and farming a bit better, I found that I don't really need all that much mana on her thanks to her Q and a dorans ring which then basically refunds all my last-hit-Q mana AND then an additional bonus from ring passive, making her early game tibbers pretty strong with an aoe slow just being near the target, making anyone without early boots at high risk of getting constantly slowed. while I position myself and try to dodge skillshots

Jonheath2912 votes

{quoted}

Well frozen mallet also has a 40% slow and it procs from autos which are constant and free, no mana cost at all.

whereas rylais requires spells and costs mana, sometimes requiring the champ to wait for cooldowns, but in a sense I do think that rylais needs just slightly less AP and more HP as it should be a utility item like frozen mallet, not a burst mage item. It is borderline just a ROA with no mana and a slow instead, and doesn't require stacking over time.

I usually build Rylais first on annie(used to be Roa but after learning how to manage my mana a bit better, harass better, and farming a bit better, I found that I don't really need all that much mana on her thanks to her Q and a dorans ring which then basically refunds all my last-hit-Q mana AND then an additional bonus from ring passive, making her early game tibbers pretty strong with an aoe slow just being near the target, making anyone without early boots at high risk of getting constantly slowed. while I position myself and try to dodge skillshots

item 3022 passive is Icy: Basic attacks slow the target's Movement Speed for 1.5 seconds on hit (40% slow for melee attacks, 30% slow for ranged attacks)

item 3116 UNIQUE Passive: Your spell damage will slow the target's movement speed by 40% for 1.5 seconds (20% for 1 second for multi-target spells, damage over time spells and spells with a cooldown time below 3 seconds). Summoned minions also slow targets on-hit by 20% for 1 second.

The 40% slow from Frozen Mallet is only for melee attacks, which is a great thing. You SHOULD be rewarded with a strong slow within melee range.

The problem with Rylai's is that it get's that same 40% slow, except it's applied at range, and Cassiopeia is the largest offender as far as I can tell. She can use Miasma, so you can't flash, which adds a 20% slow, and then she can spam her Twin Fang on you which is a single target spell on a less than 1 second cooldown giving a 40% slow at range that is almost guaranteed permanent unless you can manage to flash/cc her. Cassiopeia is really the only champ i've ever noticed Rylais being incredibly strong on however, simply due to her spammability.

Wolfess1 votes

{quoted}

item 3022 passive is Icy: Basic attacks slow the target's Movement Speed for 1.5 seconds on hit (40% slow for melee attacks, 30% slow for ranged attacks)

item 3116 UNIQUE Passive: Your spell damage will slow the target's movement speed by 40% for 1.5 seconds (20% for 1 second for multi-target spells, damage over time spells and spells with a cooldown time below 3 seconds). Summoned minions also slow targets on-hit by 20% for 1 second.

The 40% slow from Frozen Mallet is only for melee attacks, which is a great thing. You SHOULD be rewarded with a strong slow within melee range.

The problem with Rylai's is that it get's that same 40% slow, except it's applied at range, and Cassiopeia is the largest offender as far as I can tell. She can use Miasma, so you can't flash, which adds a 20% slow, and then she can spam her Twin Fang on you which is a single target spell on a less than 1 second cooldown giving a 40% slow at range that is almost guaranteed permanent unless you can manage to flash/cc her. Cassiopeia is really the only champ i've ever noticed Rylais being incredibly strong on however, simply due to her spammability.

what if instead then the slow priority was the other way around, instead of the higher slow being applied to overwrite the lower one, it then became such that the lower slow overwrote the higher one to prevent DoTs from turning into stronger slows just from the fact that you managed to land the DoT on the opponent.

crippler381 votes

unless that's from just one champ then you'd have to consider what would happen if you hit someone with a nasus wither and then someone else slowed the target, effectively gimping your own slow.

Wolfess1 votes

{quoted}

unless that's from just one champ then you'd have to consider what would happen if you hit someone with a nasus wither and then someone else slowed the target, effectively gimping your own slow.

then simply have slows from abilities get higher priority if they have a a higher slow % from rylais since otherwise you would be downgrading/nerfing the actual skill itself.

crippler381 votes

are you saying that this weird slow stacking where the lowest is what makes priority only work for rylais then? Because otherwise it'd be the same thing and I was more talking about say nasus withers someone, oh low and behold then his allied shaco or whatever also slows the target then BOOM that target is then sent to a 30% slow from a 90, see the issue?

Unless you make it so that if rylais is used then it must automatically overt any slows in that champions kit, which would be ridiculously annoying and not really change much since the people that use it mostly use it on skills that already don't slow, then what's the point of making the weakest slow be on top other than to nerf characters that need that slow like most juggernauts? That means you CAN'T pick them on the same team with someone who has a weaker slow (also known as ashe for the most part of the game) until way late.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Brand and Azir disagree. :P

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Brand and Azir disagree. :P

exactly 2 of the reasons it needs to get removed.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Well can you blame them? They are both squishy and conditionally immobile. (Before you say anything Air's dash is on such a long cooldow it doesn't count as him being mobile.) Plus unlike most images they have very conditional CC.

Brand has a conditional single target stun and an AOE slow with his ult.

Azir only has his ult.

How do you expect them to be able to kite without reliable CC like the other images?

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Well can you blame them? They are both squishy and conditionally immobile. (Before you say anything Air's dash is on such a long cooldow it doesn't count as him being mobile.) Plus unlike most images they have very conditional CC.

Brand has a conditional single target stun and an AOE slow with his ult.

Azir only has his ult.

How do you expect them to be able to kite without reliable CC like the other images?

azir does not need it to kite at all. he has a slow on his q, his ult wall, and yes. he has a dash that he can even chain with his q. hes definitely not immobile.

brands cc isnt that difficult to land when it comes to kiting. he just hits e + q on his opponent. if he misses it, well. thats his problem. he doesnt have a lot of cc, but probably the highest potential burst damage of all the mages to make up for it.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Oh yeah, I forgot he had a slow on his Q, because nobody notices it.

How on earth is he supposed to stop somebody from walking up to him and murdering him without his ult? He is super slow and a single slow stops nobody. This is even worse because he tickles early game now, and when people realize that they walk all over him before lategame even comes.

Eh, I'll give you Brand. You would expect people on fire to run faster anyway.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Oh yeah, I forgot he had a slow on his Q, because nobody notices it.

How on earth is he supposed to stop somebody from walking up to him and murdering him without his ult? He is super slow and a single slow stops nobody. This is even worse because he tickles early game now, and when people realize that they walk all over him before lategame even comes.

he still has a dash, which he can chain with his q for extremely long range.

and the slow isnt weak either.

A little Peepo3 votes

{quoted}

Well can you blame them? They are both squishy and conditionally immobile. (Before you say anything Air's dash is on such a long cooldow it doesn't count as him being mobile.) Plus unlike most images they have very conditional CC.

Brand has a conditional single target stun and an AOE slow with his ult.

Azir only has his ult.

How do you expect them to be able to kite without reliable CC like the other images?

That does count as mobility even if it has a long cool down. That's like saying old ahri wasn't mobile because her ult had a long Cooldown lol mobility is mobility regardless of Cooldowns, if they time it right or not it's still mobility on a down time. Champions without mobility are annie, velkoz, veigar,lux, ect you get the gist they have 0 mobility options in their kit, that's the definition of not having mobility whatsoever. Of course he isn't as mobile as Katarina,lb,fizz,ect but he still have mobility.

Sightless663 votes

I think this would actually make the problem even worse. The biggest problem with Rylai's is that it is too ubitiquous of an item. It's way too accessible given how strong extra utility is. We don't want every mage having slows on every ability all the time. Splitting it into two different items doesn't solve that problem. You're still allowing every mage to get the passive. Hell, you're making it even more accessible by giving champions who want the utility access to tailored stat profiles.

The solution to the Rylai's problem needs to be gating access to the utility it grants, not increasing it. We don't need every mage to always have easy, cost-efficient access to a permaslow item with ideal stats. We need to decide which classes need it as a core item and which don't, and then tailor the item to fit the classes that really need it while making it a more situational purchase for other classes. Giving everyone even better access to it just exacerbates the problem we already have.

The entire purpose of Meddler's potential solutions was making the item harder to buy. This undermines the entire premise of that solution. Why even bother changing it if we're not actually trying to make the utility it provides more situational? What's the point?

But why do we HAVE to do it this way, to create other balance problems instead of just finding the perfect middle ground?

The item is already the perfect middle ground. That's the issue. We can't solve a problem of "too middle ground" by doubling down on it.

The only thing I'm seeing in this suggestion that would actually help solve the problem at all is reducing the slow percentage, but we could just do that with the current Rylai's if we really wanted to. That would have all the benefits of reducing the slow, but without the cost of making it more accessible through more class-specific stat profiles.

HazyCloud73 votes

This is the best solution imo. Although I'm not a fan of reducing the slow on single target by a gigantic 20%. I'd rather they add an on target CD so you can't perma slow than go that route.

15-20% slow is just a gutting of the passive. Keep single target at 30%, reduce AoE and DoT to 20%, add an on target CD so that you can't permaslow one target.

TequilaZombie1 votes

The point is: champions like Singed and Morde (and to some extent, Rumble) NEED the perma slow on spells to even function. If you put a CD on it they go from barely viable to trash tier really really fast.

HazyCloud71 votes

I don't think rumble does but I forgot about Singed. That's a good point.

Carnerox2 votes

Yeah but your numbers are garbage.

10% slow is almost useless, and having it on a 20 sec cooldown means it's definitely useless.

Mages need high AP items, they DON'T need permaslows. Just make the item have less of an effect with ranged champions and have diminishing returns.

Farahad2 votes

the 10% slow on a 20 sec cooldown is only a tier 2 component item that builds into the two main items that will replace rylais.

La Barbotte2 votes

i think before working on that they should fix one bigger problem

Karthus Mordekaiser Sona Olaf

should join my new fav Yorick

with pentakill skins to all play lightbringer

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Malicious Metal

The one buff Karthus NEEDS
Gameplay126 comments
464
votes
Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>
Gameplay224 comments
414
votes
I have achieved my final form!
Memes & Games62 comments
320
votes
There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis
Gameplay223 comments
280
votes
A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)
Gameplay140 comments
279
votes
Malphite will be the best Camille counter
Memes & Games60 comments
257
votes