I think next season Riot should do a kit sweep and start removing unnecessary CC from chamion kits.

Packun Flower·Sep 15, 2017·26 votes·1,022 views

I do personally think this game is very CC heavy. Almost every kit has some form of crowd control most notoriously a slow and I think its getting way out of hand. I think it gets to the point where no matter what team comp you have or are fighting every fight is just a cluster of CC and standing there being able to do nothing and in the end its probably frustrating for both teams.

My opinion is probably unpopular but I would like to see Riot's next big project sweep through every champion kit and maybe start removing from champions who really do not needed at all. I think the game can recover from the CC dependent state its been put in overtime.

28 Comments

PieceofcandySep 15, 20175 votes

Example?

Packun FlowerSep 15, 20173 votes

Mao's Sapling Toss for example. Very good ability already, especially when empowered in the bush, but they also slow on contact for now apparent reason. The slow is there for the save of being there, I'm sure Mao can capitalize on it every now and then but Mao's already got 2 root's and a slight knock back, why does he need a slow as well?

Naut's Riptide i find is another example. He already stuns with auto's and hooks with Q. The slow on riptide really doesn't do anything and seems so out of place for a champion who already has 3 other forms of CC.

there's a whole list honestly but I'm short on time at the moment, would love to come back to opinion and feedback though.

Iota ThetaSep 15, 20172 votes

I'm less concerned with tanks having slows (I believe your two examples have always had slows on those abilities). I'd say take it more from certain damage classes, like marksmen or certain assassins.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20171 votes

CC from most marksmen is really trivial, though.

Teridax68Sep 15, 20171 votes

One doesn't have to exclude the other. For sure, marksmen often have around 2 different kinds of CC on their kits when they should have fewer or none, and some assassins also have some superfluous CC, but tanks especially recently have been pushed towards focusing almost exclusively on outputting crowd control through all of their abilities, instead of having some effects exclusively for durability or debuffs. Naut may not need less CC, but Maokai is definitely an example of a champion who used to have a bit of damage, CC and utility, and instead got pushed into having 4 different crowd control effects.

Iota ThetaSep 15, 20173 votes

I don't disagree. Tanks with CC were just less concerning for me. Tanks should be in the upper tiers when it comes to CC count, but I agree they need other forms of abilities. The challenge is making those abilities feel interactive in some way.

For example, I personally dislike things like Amumu's W and old Sej W. The effects (mumu's damage amp and sej slow) are cool, but I never really enjoyed pushing a button and hugging my opponent to apply the debuff. It didn't feel interactive at all. Just push a button and move my champ, done. Whereas PBAoE like Maokai Q, Malphite E, Mumu E feel more reasonable to be because I actually have to time it right. I know my view on it all is different than others, but that's how I see it.

Oh, and CDR needs reduced like crazy (there is not a single MR/Health item for tanks that does not give CDR) because it does not help the CC bloat. Cc does need cut itself though, and that is the way we have to go about it, not some CC immunity item that potentially makes CC as binary as Grevious Wounds and healing.

My favorite tank in terms of feel right now, for example, is Ornn. Low damage, Two knockups but with major screw up potential on him (not hitting terrain on E or whiffing the headbutt on the Ult). W provides nice utility in the Brittle effect, but you have to time it right due to the self slow and potentially to negate a little bit of CC with the Unstoppable march, and it provides a decent durability spike with that shield. While tanks shouldn't match him exactly, it's how his abilities generally work that I like.

Teridax68Sep 15, 20174 votes

I completely agree that tanks should be the upper bar for CC in the game, which is why I think any kind of crowd control that approaches theirs needs a very good reason to exist. I also agree that persistent PBAoE damage is some of the least interactive and most boring power around, and I'd very much like to see that kind of effect pruned from the game. I also agree that CDR is responsible for a lot of CC creep, but then again I also feel CDR is a stat that is all too universal, and mainly operates by reducing downtimes on champions, leading to gameplay that might be faster, but often messier and with fewer outplay options too. At this point it might even be useful to remove the stat from the game, as it becomes practically a must-buy when it's available and doesn't really represent a truly interesting choice.

Regarding Ornn, I completely agree that he feels very fair precisely because he has little damage on his abilities. In fact, I think he could be a good of example of how tank design could step a little further and outright remove damage from some effects: Ornn's dash, for example, deals so little damage at all stages that that power may not even need to exist, and taking damage off of CC-laden abilities could go a long way in giving many tanks more counterplay, including some of the updated vanguards (Zac especially does not need much additional damage on his Q or ult, or even his E). Usually the damage is there to reward the player for landing their abilities, but in the case of tanks that reward already exists in the form of CC. Stripping those nukes, and buffing their autoattacks as needed, could help dissociate the damage of tanks from their initiation or general CC combo, while still allowing them to trade decently in lane and last hit.

Iota ThetaSep 15, 20172 votes

Beautifully put. Outside of being able to farm and trade some, I never understood the need to put damage into tank kits.

As far as excessive CC, there are some tanks that have too much or reliable CC (Zac Q, for example), that I agree with. Zac's Q might be served best if part two was also a skillshot as opposed to an empowered auto. The slow on Maokai's E, if it's a problem, could be focused into the bush saplings, meaning he can't just throw one out and get a slow (just a spitball example). While having some of the most CC, I like that Mao is balanced in that by not having a true tank steroid, but has to rely on his healing passive.

But yes, it does need trming overall, especially displacements, but I think carries should be a bigger focus, leaving CC and debuffs similar to Amumu's to the tanks and supports (since they have no damage either, but they also have shields and heals for allies). Tanks shouldn't be only CC, but it can be made healthier as a core for them if there is less overall CC. And with less randomly tacked on CC in some kits, melees could be made more viable as tanks, especially Wardens, should be concerned with stopping them, which would also make Vanguards risky but effective, since their CC would be focused on engaging the enemy team and not stopped the flanking diver/Juggernaut.

Teridax68Sep 15, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqEwGwxX,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-15T16:27:12.400+0000)

As far as excessive CC, there are some tanks that have too much or reliable CC (Zac Q, for example), that I agree with. Zac's Q might be served best if part two was also a skillshot as opposed to an empowered auto.

I completely agree with this, and I feel the design for Zac's new Q was tremendously short-sighted in that it presumed players would use the skillshot component against players first, and then the empowered auto against a minion, when it became quickly obvious the reverse is much easier to do. Making both components each a skillshot would give him a lot more interactivity, which he currently sorely lacks.

I also agree that CC on many champions (Zac included) is too reliable, and on tanks especially it often creates issues when their reliable initiation is paired up with equally reliable baseline damage. Generally, reliability I feel is a resource that each champion should have equal amounts, and that shouldn't be an intended strength for a champion as a whole: if a champion has some exceptional reliability in one aspect, then that can only be justified by having some exceptional amount of unreliability elsewhere. Reliability generally implies lack of interactivity, as the opponent gets less of a say in the outcome, so it's important that no champion gets too reliable. It's also responsible for making a lot of older kits, such as Malphite's or Rammus's, less interesting than they could be, so while they don't need to be as unreliable as Sion, they could definitely stand to have more instances where they can be outplayed.

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqEwGwxX,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-15T16:27:12.400+0000)

But yes, it does need trming overall, especially displacements, but I think carries should be a bigger focus, leaving CC and debuffs similar to Amumu's to the tanks and supports (since they have no damage either, but they also have shields and heals for allies). Tanks shouldn't be only CC, but it can be made healthier as a core for them if there is less overall CC. And with less randomly tacked on CC in some kits, melees could be made more viable as tanks, especially Wardens, should be concerned with stopping them, which would also make Vanguards risky but effective, since their CC would be focused on engaging the enemy team and not stopped the flanking diver/Juggernaut.

I agree with all of this as well, and I feel effects should be included on kits only if they're intended to be deliberate contributions brought by that champion: if a champion has CC in their kit, it should be because they are intended to contribute CC to the game, not simply because they want more power in certain circumstances, and based on this reasoning I feel a ton of CC could be pruned from non-tank kits: Kalista's knockup on ult may be an intended contribution (and even then, it treads on Malphite's toes), but her slow on E only serves to let her catch up to escaping targets, and so could be removed, for example.

The same can be said for many other minor slows on marksmen, such as Kindred's, Kog Maw's and Miss Fortune's Es (it's usually on their E too), which are their only form of CC, but are so weak overall they are clearly not intended to be a real CC contribution so much as a personal aid. Removing them in favor of non-CC effects that would work for them (Miss Fortune could charge up her Strut instead, for example, and Kindred would love more dashing power) would allow them to work well without limiting their opponents' agency or overstepping their intended contributions.

Celestial Lion12Sep 16, 20171 votes

most marksmen cc is fine though Ashe its part of her identity as the frost archer and it makes up for it in the department that her damage isnt quite as strong as other adcs Caitlyn yeah no fuck this champion Draven rewards good players if they can interrupt dashes the slow afterwards maybe needs to be removed but not too bad Graves i mean hes a jungler without some kind off cc hed be useless Jhin situational and low damage can be annoying because of how easy it is to chain with other cc but it solidifies his role as the long range almost mage marksmen Jinx w slow is a loing cd ability which gives her some kind of chase potential but has a really small hit box and is easy to dodge e is a good preemptive zoning ability giving her mostly immobile nature some safety against divers Kalista e should not have a slow considering its an execute ability and if you mess it up you should not be rewarded but lets be real her ult is cool as fuck KogMaw e should just be replaced with something else it doesent fit with his kit and only provides minimal safety. Kindred once again jungler kind of needs something to help her gank Quinn shes a diver assassin her nearsight is cool to create some confusion to the adc and hopefully have them fail positioning her e slow is pretty stupid though. Twitch kind of a dumb ability like kog just needs to be replaced with something else but it does fit his thematic pretty well which is kind of cool Varus honestly varus is an ad mage more than a marksman he has low damage compared to other adcs becasue of charge time on q giving him cc gives him solid usefulness come late game Vayne to get hit by this stun she either has to outplay you or you are a fucking retard Xayah situational and synergizes very well with the rest of her kit maybe the root is a bit much and the high damage is enough but all in all good ability.

you have to remember that the goal of both teams is to kill the enemy adc, they have to rely entirely on supports to keep them alive which is fine if the adc messes up the support can be there to save the day but if the support gets killed in the initial engage or the support is a complete fucktard adcs need a way to protect themselves from just getting completely wrecked over. and now i need to prepare my anus for the downvotes i am about to recieve.

Teridax68Sep 16, 20171 votes

I'll make a point-by-point of the above champions further down my post, but the point I was trying to make is that champions shouldn't have CC simply because it rewards playmaking, or because it makes their job easier. We have several junglers, like Evelynn, Master Yi, Nidalee, Shyvana, etc. who either have little to no innate CC at all, or do not need CC in order to be successful at jungling, so the notion of needing crowd control simply to be a functional jungler, even a ganking jungler, is incorrect in practice.

To clarify, my opinion on what features a champion should have on their kit are the following:

A feature should be on a champion's kit only if it is meant to be an intended main contribution and strength for that champion.
Reasons I think are not valid for adding any sort of feature, yet are frequently invoked by both players and designers:
Rewarding players for landing an ability or combo successfully (the reward should be something the champion is meant to be good at).
Facilitating plays or otherwise synergizing with the champion's kit (a champion's functionality should rest on its own core contributions, and leaving gaps in their strengths allows better synergy with other champions).
Giving the champion something to do even when behind (if a champion cannot contribute when behind, either their core design is too binary or the game itself needs to change in order to allow champions to always contribute).

And with that in mind:

Marksmen I feel are intended to contribute crowd control and who deserve to keep all of the CC they currently have:
Marksmen I feel are intended to contribute crowd control, but have some excess amounts of it: (all of them have superfluous slows, and in Quinn's case a mini-knockback as well)
Literally all other marksmen aren't meant to contribute CC and so should not need it on their kits.

I feel you could apply a similar reasoning for more features than just CC, and on every other class, but that's my opinion on the state of CC on marksmen at the very least.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 15, 20171 votes

My only problem is how Mao gets damage from tankiness now. I really dont like how riot is doing that, it completely defies the balance process of tanks vs squishies

Angry MonsterSep 15, 20173 votes

Please tell me where mao gets scaling from health, armor or magic resist and turns that into damage. His passive only give him health based of his max health and 0 damage amp. All other ratios on Maokai are AP ratios or enemy max health % damage (e). Besides his E is a junk ability anyways.

PePsiLemoNNSep 15, 20172 votes

Those champs always had slows.

RalanrSep 15, 20171 votes

Those slows were always on those champions and as a tank it makes sense to have them (though some tanks are overloaded with hard CC).

I'd argue that if you really wanted to cut down on CC in the game, you'd remove slows from marksmen and reduce stuns from mages.

Cybernetic GhostSep 15, 20172 votes

The formula for champion design seems to be something like this:

Q- Poke + secondary effect, pretty minor W- cc/debuff to enemies, or anti-cc/buff to self/allies; usually some kind of AoE. E- Utility (often an AoE, damage booster, cc ability, or buff/debuff)

So I can understand if you think the game is cc-heavy. Unnecessary cc? Hmm...it's hard to imagine who should have a cc effect removed from their kit, since most champions have one.

I'd like to see a champion that is built with a kit designed around countering cc-heavy teams/champions--either by being highly mobile or can cancel debuffs placed on themselves or allies.

HelaSep 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cybernetic Ghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqEwGwxX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-15T02:00:36.547+0000)

The formula for champion design seems to be something like this:

Q- Poke + secondary effect, pretty minor W- cc/debuff to enemies, or anti-cc/buff to self/allies; usually some kind of AoE. E- Utility (often an AoE, damage booster, cc ability, or buff/debuff)

So I can understand if you think the game is cc-heavy. Unnecessary cc? Hmm...it's hard to imagine who should have a cc effect removed from their kit, since most champions have one.

I'd like to see a champion that is built with a kit designed around countering cc-heavy teams/champions--either by being highly mobile or can cancel debuffs placed on themselves or allies.

Olaf

Cybernetic GhostSep 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Butch The Outlaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eqEwGwxX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-09-15T02:27:20.143+0000)

Ah, good point. Forgot about him. But all the same, a new champion would be nice too, one that is magic damage oriented instead of melee AD like Olaf. Ekko doesn't count.

Teridax68Sep 15, 20172 votes

I agree with this, but I also think CC is not the only culprit here, as I think there is also a saturation of damage and mobility on champion kits. On one hand, we are getting tons of CC on champions who aren't even meant to have CC as their main contribution (e.g. Xin Zhao, who is soon to have 4 different applications of CC on his kit, more than some tanks), but on the other we also have a whole bunch of tanks whose CC combo also involves a lot of burst damage, even though damage is neither an intended contribution of theirs or even healthy to their playstyle (Zac is guilty of this, for example). On top of this, mobility is given frequently to ranged champions, while also being considered pretty much a necessity for melee champions to function. It's this combination that has contributed to a meta where combat is too bursty and where champions can die while stunlocked, and to a larger degree it's limiting the kind of designs that can be made in League, as it forces certain effects to exist even on champions who shouldn't really have them (such as Urgot's dash).

Because of this, I agree that kits need to be scrubbed of their superfluous CC, and more generally I think champion kits need to be boiled down to what is necessary, rather than what simply feels good. Kits should feel unique and full of options, but giving them too many tools often tends to dumb those options down, and not make any individual feature feel as valuable. Additionally, kit load tends to crowd out more unique gameplay fostered by more severe limitations, and tends to make champions feel alike when they all have access to the same kinds of mobility-CC-damage comboes. If champions want to fill out on more effects that help them, that should be achieved through itemization or some similar customization system, rather than the repetition of mechanics across kits.

A common fear against this is that removing features from kits would make champions more similar to each other, due to having similar things on their kits, but I think the opposite is true: not only is this reasoning demonstrably false when we pick champions who, say, have no CC (Ezreal, Lucian, Master Yi, Mordekaiser, Nidalee and Sivir play nothing alike), but even when comparing champions who only have a modicum of weak CC, like Zed and Talon, they really do things differently and bring different strengths to the table, despite having similar tools and contributions. By contrast, when several vanguards were all given extra crowd control and initiation tools, on top of their existing kits, they ended up not only becoming more similar to each other, but ended up homogenizing even more with divers, simply because they ended up having the same things in small amounts, and applied them in very much the same way. A champion's contribution and playstyle cannot simply be resumed to a bulletpoint list of their kit features, but their strengths often can, and when a champion has a bit of everything in their kit at the same time, that's usually a red flag.

XIII VanitasSep 15, 20172 votes

Imho, they should also reduce the duration of displacements across the board.

TeémòSep 15, 20171 votes

I want to agree, but I also think the sheer amount of cdr builds in league makes additional cc capitalized on than the focus of orb walking originally within league.

DariusDemiurgeSep 15, 20171 votes

All I read from this is buff adcs. Also removal of cc makes Morgana's black shield less appealing.

KuroCaliberSep 15, 20171 votes

Ok, but we also need to remove an equal number of dashes and/or blinks from the game as well.

PePsiLemoNNSep 15, 20171 votes

Yea sure. Kalista Kassadin Fiora Riven Talon and others can't wait for that to happen. Gl with that then.

RainfallSep 15, 20171 votes

the problems: most mages deal 0 damage to tanks so they need cc to kite them. most tanks lost a lot of damage in the tank rework,so the only reason to focus them is cc.

KaìjuSep 15, 20171 votes

But I like Ashe ;-;