give us a defensive mastery tree that enhances being a tank.

MunchCrunchLunch·Aug 14, 2016·47 votes·1,952 views

an adc can get 7% armor penetration or magic pen and a good amount of on hit damage with a plethora of damage amplification points upto a very big amount. Now what do tank have in their tree. 5% bonus armor and mr increase?. a keystone that makes you die faster because your tanking for damage dealers? a mastery keystone that gives you damage (nobody fucking gives a shit about tanking with it outside a duel.). and a mastery keystone that gives you 300 health (roughly half an auto from an adc ). pathetic.

give us some damage reduction keystones. some stat buffers. that aren't bullshit and just as equal on a squshie as a tank. damage>tank stats. ever since the preseason and its not even a close call. you can get some 20% damage amplification from masteries. meawhile. you ain't getting jack shit of any tankiness from the tank tree. its a shit tree.

52 Comments

ReikkenAug 14, 201620 votes

there is nothing on par with fervor

LankPantsAug 14, 201614 votes

I'd argue that's because Fervour is way too strong rather than other keystones in general being too weak. Fervour's damage should be reduced to about 3/4ths of what it is now and be changed to deal half damage for ranged champs.

MarshbouyAug 14, 20164 votes

this^

Blue Moon WolfAug 14, 20166 votes

Honestly, MonkeyKing 's passive would make for a great Tank keystone mastery, where you gain a bonus 4/6/8 armor and magic resist for every near by enemy. That means at max you would get a bonus 40 armor and MR in a 5v5 teamfight. The only downside would be that now Wukong's passive is obtainable for everyone who takes that mastery and makes him a lot less interesting. Still, I think it would be great for tanks, especially for Support tanks who already have a duo lane and the occasional Jungler making it 3v2.

WacingTheFindAug 14, 20169 votes

The thing is, you already have a mastery like that, Legendary Guardian, but it only gives 3 armor and MR per enemy, to a total of 15 armor and MR, and it's "rival" mastery gives 15% tenacity and slow resistance, much more rare and valuable stats.

Perhaps making Legendary Guardian a keystone and give it a proper buff.

Blue Moon WolfAug 14, 20161 votes

Huh, I assumed they got rid of it when they changed the mastery system for some reason. But yea, move it to a keystone mastery, buff it, add a new defensive mastery where it was and I think It would work out really well for tanks. Would still have the problem with Wukongs passive being a bit redundant (or indirectly buff him, giving double his passive O_o), but if Riot works on Divers after Assassins, then that problem could work itself out.

PokladnicaZlaAug 14, 20165 votes

Someone suggested a while back a keystone that would give %MR for X AR and the other way around. Seemed like a good idea.

ZT XperimentorAug 14, 20161 votes

There used to be such an option before the mastery tree was reworked; but it only gave +4% which is pitiful at best.

PokladnicaZlaAug 14, 20161 votes

They could buff itbor maybe make keystone whuch more tenacity the CC you take.Swushy fighters/assassins wouldn't be able to bring it to it's full potentional but high HP tanks yes.

Suleiman77Aug 14, 20164 votes

300 health (roughly half an auto from an adc )

If an ADC is critting you for that much maybe you should build some tank items??? item 3143 - says hi with its passive.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 14, 201610 votes

an adc auto will still do more than 300 damage with lord dominks.

damage reduction gives diminishing returns. from armor or flat. its all additive in diminishing returns they aren't seperate. including ninja tabi passive.

also stop boosting your friend.

Suleiman77Aug 14, 20162 votes

Throwing placement matches /=/ boosting but the 30lp gains do feel good. Got banned for 2 weeks though so that's a thing.. Thanks thinking that though :D.

Thing is, ADC will do ~350 per auto to tanks full build, sure. But, if you're any at all good at top lane you say this, "Hey support can you deep ward bush then let them push and I will tp gank." Coordinate this with your bot, jungle, and maybe even mid laner and do this 2 times (GIVE YOUR ADC THE FUCKING KILLS) and their ADC will have 3 items at 30 minutes and by then you will be taking inhibs.

And FFS this is coming from someone who plays Tank Ekko. YOU OUT DAMAGE THE ADC AT ALL STAGES OF THE GAME LMAO...

Subject 5Aug 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Throwing placement matches /=/ boosting but the 30lp gains do feel good. Got banned for 2 weeks though so that's a thing.. Thanks thinking that though :D.

Thing is, ADC will do ~350 per auto to tanks full build, sure. But, if you're any at all good at top lane you say this, "Hey support can you deep ward bush then let them push and I will tp gank." Coordinate this with your bot, jungle, and maybe even mid laner and do this 2 times (GIVE YOUR ADC THE FUCKING KILLS) and their ADC will have 3 items at 30 minutes and by then you will be taking inhibs.

And FFS this is coming from someone who plays Tank Ekko. YOU OUT DAMAGE THE ADC AT ALL STAGES OF THE GAME LMAO...

So a tank that built 6 defensive items out damages an adc that built 6 offensive items. Wowie, tanks must be OP guise- wie sould lern form dis gui!

Suleiman77Aug 14, 20162 votes

Realistically a champion that has all attack stats should kill a champion, granted very slowly but still be able to kill a champion with all defensive.

WoonStruckAug 14, 20163 votes

None of it has diminishing returns.

Think of it this way: If you have 90% damage reduction, its much harder to increase that by 1%...but that single 1% that seems insignificant compared to the other 90% offers 10% relative damage reduction. That's actually huge.

Its just like how 10 AD seems insignificant when you already have 300. You're talking about matters of scale, not returns. X is going to feel like you're getting much less after you've bought X 10 times already, but you aren't getting any less out of it.

Tanks need more scaling factors like all of the damage dealers do but seriously...people need to stop saying defensive stats have diminishing returns. They absolutely do not, and if you suggest it again I will show you all of the math behind armor, HP, reductions, etc, even though you should have a solid enough grasp on it already.

BloodyTomponAug 14, 20168 votes

Ninja tabi is strictly multiplicative with other defensive stats. Damage reduction abilities/passives are also multiplicative with defensive stats (e.g., Ali). The reduction on Randuins-Multiplicative. The AS slow on frozen heart-Multiplicative.

The interaction between resistance and hp is linear with no diminishing returns for the amount of damage required to kill.

FallenSeruvimAug 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

also stop boosting your friend.

Please. Should be bannable

falldown010Aug 15, 20161 votes

doubt riot will do anything about it they were promoting boosting a while back with their play with friends scenario

NineTailedMysticAug 15, 20161 votes

Resistances do not have diminishing returns. Every 1 point of Armor and MR is a 1% increase in effective HP against that damage type.

WacingTheFindAug 14, 20164 votes

They really need to bring back some of the old defensive masteries, like that one that reduced critical strike dmg, and maybe make the defensive version of natural talent (flat armor and MR per lvl)

SylvantAug 14, 20163 votes

the problem with having such a tank tree, and it has been said before, is it can be used even better on non tank peers. I dont see why tanks actually need that advanced tree, they have their own advantages, like very cheap items and more flexible choice( item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 ). While you can adjust your items according the situation, ADC's are bound to buy the same items 90% of the time

StellafreyjaAug 14, 20163 votes

Bond of Stone used to be THE go to mastery for any and all tanks. It overshadowed everything else until it was nerfed repeatedly, along with Grasp of the Undying. So now, all of the Keystones in the defense tree are all just mediocre. Riot really needs to look at those Keystones again...

Strength of the Ages works really well with Cinderhulk junglers since the bonus health from Cinderhulk boosts SotA even more.

CerealBoxOfDoomAug 14, 20163 votes

... you can literally take damage for other players

what more do you want? gotta take their cc and taunt anyone within 3000 units?

Feel ApathyAug 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

... you can literally take damage for other players

what more do you want? gotta take their cc and taunt anyone within 3000 units?

Not get killed in 1.2 secs from an adc with item 3036

Swiftstrike4Aug 14, 20163 votes

I will say I think the resolve tree is the weakest tree. Even the mastery that gives 5% bonus armor/mr was nerfed from 6% (use to be 10% prior the mastery changes when it was called "enchanted armor").

Runic armor is the best talent in the tree besides Swiftness. All the Keystones are pretty mediocre with Bond of Stone getting nerfed, Grasp being Nerfed, and SoTA just not being very good since it takes so long to scale. No immediate return on that mastery.

The Resolve tree is the weakest of the three trees, but I think it is due to the fear of non-tanks going into that tree and being too strong.

Bond of Stone shouldnt be a Keystone but a lower tier mastery in that tree.

The Yetii RiderAug 14, 20163 votes

A) Tanks aren't meant to tank ADCs. ADCs kill everyone. Tanks are meant to absorb burst, and 300 Health is great for that.

B) 15% slow resistance and Tenacity. Might as well be the tanks actual keystone.

C) 8% bonus healing and shields. Mundo, Volibear, Trundle, Nunu, Garen, Maokai, Cho'Gath, Skarner, Sion, Poppy, and pretty much every tank in the game but Amumu or Sejuani benefits from this immensely.

D) 200% health regen when you're nearly dead. Has saved me probably 100+ times since the start of the season. Also a great way to escape dying from Ignite.

Tank tree is fine. Tanks aren't supposed to live through ADCs. They destroy mages and assassins, that's their job.

Irelia BotAug 14, 20162 votes

They are intended to be able to survive a little while against marksmen which is not really the case currently.

The Yetii RiderAug 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eltdxkxL,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-08-14T20:46:11.929+0000)

They are intended to be able to survive a little while against marksmen which is not really the case currently.

Source? I don't think I've ever heard Riot express a single time that tanks were intended to survive against marksmen.

Also, you're incorrect about tanks not surviving for a little while against marksmen. People just don't play the right tanks.

falldown010Aug 15, 20161 votes

plenty of proof out there, you just have to dig, just go search for lol tank destroyers or something also the populairity of armor shred items says enough

The Yetii RiderAug 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

plenty of proof out there, you just have to dig, just go search for lol tank destroyers or something also the populairity of armor shred items says enough

The only popular armor shred item that hurts tanks is Cleaver. I could just as easily argue that Last Whisper being so terrible is proof that Riot wants tanks to be durable.

Irelia BotAug 14, 20163 votes

Idea for a new tank keystone

(1% +.2%* number of seconds in combat up to 5) times the number of enemies in a 1200 unit range. Max damage reduction of 10%.

Good for team fights, less then idea for split pushing or laning. Has clear pros on cons.

falldown010Aug 15, 20161 votes

15% would be fine , if you look at the curret armor shred tank builds and how populair they are

bill84Aug 14, 20162 votes

Galio could use a keystone that actually works well for him.

The Yetii RiderAug 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

could use a keystone that actually works well for him.

Bond of Stone.

bill84Aug 14, 20161 votes

maybe for support, but DFT is better for mid and Grasp is better for top i find,

darkestkhanAug 15, 20161 votes

I tend to use dethfire grasp on him... but mostly due to other masteries simply sucking on him.

MokkunAug 15, 20162 votes

Where is the circle jerk that tanks can't tank adc's from? I watch (and when I occasionally play tanks), tanks give no fucks even late game to the non-tankkiller ADCs for an extended period of time. They die when 3-5 people shoot them. Funny thing that. You can't 1v5 a team. So broken and weak. Ya, things like Kog or Vayne can kill you late game pretty much no matter what. But they're designed for it. Popular stuff like Lucian, jhin, and Ez you can basically shrug off for 6-10 seconds at least, which is a really long time in a fight.

Seriously, you can have 4500hp and 250+ armor fairly easily. People really don't kill you through that fast by themselves.

crippler38Aug 14, 20161 votes

I feel like mentioning the extra health one also comes with some nice % sustain doesn't it?

TesliumAug 14, 20161 votes

Giving what you mentioned, damage reduction and good stat buffs, will make them great even for non tanks. Hell, I could even see ADCs going for those stats to get away from those assasins.

GeshultzAug 14, 20161 votes

Problem with having a strong tank tree is that everyone would take it, if the masteries where too strong in the tank tree everyone would take them regardless of their class which would just lead to the cycle of whoever can abuse tank stats the best, well doing damage to rotate as the meta changes.

Irelia BotAug 14, 20163 votes

That is assuming they are too strong or have nothing to make them situational.

falldown010Aug 14, 20161 votes

a reduced damadge buff , that applies when you take damadge would be nice like once you go below a certain threshold , it kicks in , when tanking the front, atleast you have chance to reach to them instead of getting blown up mid way

Gary B EnkelisAug 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

a reduced damadge buff , that applies when you take damadge would be nice like once you go below a certain threshold , it kicks in , when tanking the front, atleast you have chance to reach to them instead of getting blown up mid way

Is it possible to have the masteries Runic Armor and Perseverance, maybe a item 3065 , and to kite back? It's not instant damage reduction but does it help? Maybe also buy a item 3143 to deal with crit and autoattacks, and CC them?

I see you want damage reduction to close a gap though? Yeah I don't know. Maybe play someone with a gap closer and some anti-autoattack like Malphite ?

Can you target their backline with Nautilus ult or something?

Maybe some damage reduction from Maokai , Gragas , Alistar ?

falldown010Aug 15, 20161 votes

perseverance is useless, and will be useless in battle though its barely picked, and needs to be looked at though, just my opinion

Lintu PuckAug 15, 20161 votes

Bond of Stone - meant for Tanky Supports, so that as long as you are near them they have a bit more protection in case you can't immediately peel for them and take a direct shot.

Grasp of the Undying - meant for bulky/tanky fighters to have some extra sustain in slap fights with an enemy.

Strength of the Ages - meant for champs that stack health. and while it itsn't always noticble once you max the 300 you get a bit of healing when you kill another cannon minion. not much, but it helps.

The Yetii RiderAug 15, 20161 votes

Strength of Ages is not meant for tanks to stack health.

It's meant to give you some extra health early on so you can rush resistances.

Pure armor is very strong in the early/mid game, but tanks have to absorb both physical and magic damage. So you can rush a pure armor item while still getting 300 health to stave off some magic damage.

Lintu PuckAug 15, 20161 votes

ah, I guess that make sense as well.

GibberwattAug 15, 20161 votes

Now see, I don't want a mastery change, I want a super expensive tank item. Like item 3089 or item 3078 , a really expensive, slightly op item for tanks. Like, something that gives the black cleaver movement speed on physical damage thing as a passive, and then something like +35% of all current armor/mr. That would make me happy, as a tank.

VeraskaAug 15, 20161 votes

Dps is supposed to outscore defensive itemization that's kinda core to how this game works

AeziirAug 15, 20161 votes

Disregarding the fact that the current mastery tree set up is a horrendous balancing act fiasco, I completely agree with you and have wondered from the start if, when playing tank, it's even worth getting that minimal tanking boost in the tank tree or just going with the offense tree and at least enjoying some visible results even though I don't care about them.