Should Mordekaiser be tweaked into a Tank?

Done25·Jan 6, 2015·4 votes·1,789 views

As Riot has figured out by now, giving a champion nothing but damage tends to result in very binary gameplay. Either they can kill you, or they can't.

Mordekaiser suffer from this problem. In his heyday he could easily 1v2 the top laner and his jungler. Since then he and several of his items have been nerfed or even outright removed.

Perhaps a few tweaks could help bring him into the new year?

Passive - Iron Man - It's a form of sustain that wont heal him. The shield makes him safer in lane, but not invincible as his health costs will catch up over time if he's made to spam them.

Q - Mace of Spades - Probably his most interesting ability. Deals more damge vs single targes, and is AoE near groups. I'm thinking this would be a great ability to tack some CC on. "Mordekaiser viciously strikes out at his foe, dealing magic damage and stunning him as well as up to three additional nearby foes. If no additional foes are nearby, the effects of this skill are doubled." 50 / 80 / 110 /140 / 180 (+ 40% AP) magic damage and stuns for 0.5 of a second.

This makes the most efficient use of this skill in the middle of an enemy group, but attempting to 1v1 him is also quite...painful.

W - Creeping Death - Fine as is. Deals damage to all foes near Mordekaiser and makes him more durable.

E - Siphon of Destruction - The first of Mordekaiser's current problems. With enough early game AP he can mindlessly farm entire waves with this. Changing it to the rough equivalent of Max HP% (Based around a 2000ish benchmark) would keep it effective against Champions, but prevent him from "lolfarm"ing his way to victory. 3.5/5.6/7.7/9.8/12% (+3% per 100 AP) Max HP magic damage.

R - The other problem - If Mordekaiser is ahead he can DFG->Children of the Grave your most fed champion into oblivion then use them to wreck your team. A new ult would make him far easier to balance.

(New) R - Suffering - Mordekaiser begins to absorb the life force of nearby enemy champions. The current power of this effect is reduced by 20% for each additional champion. (Multiplicitive. So 40%ish strength at 5 champions.) Mordekaiser heals for X% of damage done this way.

His ult is now a team fighting ability, like his Q. It's still powerful vs a single target, but to get the maximum amount of agony from it, Mordekaiser is going to want to smash his way through the middle of the enemy team. And thanks to the powerful healing effect, he can stay there for as long as he wants if he isn't dealt with.

Cool Down - 120 / 110 / 100. Duration - 12 seconds. Damage per second - 100/150/200 (+30% AP). Range - 700~1000 (I want it to be fairly closeish, so more likely 700.)

What do you guys think?

66 Comments

It Hertz When IPJan 6, 20153 votes

The problem is that ~~every ~~most champions have a known, signature ability that gives them identity. Mordekaiser's ult is that; take that away, and not only does a lot of his gameplay change, but his core identity is fundamentally altered. Think of it this way: his ult is only powerful if the enemy team manages to get their ADC fed, then fails to protect him. Otherwise, it really doesn't get that out of hand.

Make the cooldown longer, maybe, so he is forced to plan ahead of time. This would prevent people from spamming it and punish Morde players that use it without being in a position to exploit it.

Done25Jan 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ekgqtMVh,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-06T22:29:59.269+0000)

The problem is that ~~every ~~most champions have a known, signature ability that gives them identity. Mordekaiser's ult is that; take that away, and not only does a lot of his gameplay change, but his core identity is fundamentally altered. Think of it this way: his ult is only powerful if the enemy team manages to get their ADC fed, then fails to protect him. Otherwise, it really doesn't get that out of hand.

Make the cooldown longer, maybe, so he is forced to plan ahead of time. This would prevent people from spamming it and punish Morde players that use it without being in a position to exploit it.

"his ult is only powerful if the enemy team manages to get their ADC fed" In other words, his ult is only useful if their carry gets fed. I think this is actually quite a bad design. If you're ahead then your ult feels low impact vs everything else you can do. If you're behind then you're praying for that lucky ghost to carry you.

You say his gameplay changes, but what exactly about it changes? ATM your current decision making for R basically amounts to "Hit R if I'm in range of the Marksman."

In fact, I would say that not only does this new ult preserve his current identity as a high sustain "Drain Tank", but that it ENHANCES it by putting the focus on the life stealing and team fighting parts.

Most people probably don't even know, or care, that his R can heal you. It's ALL about grabbing that Marksman.

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

While it is good to kill the ADC with it if you can, it is also good to hit anyone but the AP mid and the Support. If you kill the tank with it you now have this incredibly tanky ghost that can easily zone out the enemy team. If you take someone like rengar you have a really high damage melee user that will force the ADC to kite it while you mop up their team.

Basically if i can i will nab the ADC, but if im not confident i can kill them i will take whoever i know will die then use that ghost to chase away the ADC or have their focus drawn somewhere else.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

While it is good to kill the ADC with it if you can, it is also good to hit anyone but the AP mid and the Support. If you kill the tank with it you now have this incredibly tanky ghost that can easily zone out the enemy team. If you take someone like rengar you have a really high damage melee user that will force the ADC to kite it while you mop up their team.

Basically if i can i will nab the ADC, but if im not confident i can kill them i will take whoever i know will die then use that ghost to chase away the ADC or have their focus drawn somewhere else.

But that's not because you want to. It's only because you had no better choice. Since the ghost can only auto attack, ability based champions like Mages, Tanks, or non-carry Fighters are significantly less useful for anything but tower soak.

This is made worse by the fact that people will stuff as much gold into the Marksman carry as they can, making them even more of a high priority target to burst and enslave.

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

True but taking a champion like Fiora or Jax or Rengar is also not a bad option. Their items (such as rav hydra or IE) will still work so its not like they are a waste. Its the same with any champion, ideally you want to use your ult to kill the ADC but its not a waste to kill a different champ.

Cale017Jan 6, 20152 votes

I think you'd have to be really careful with the duration or the damage of the ult, because that could quickly get out of hand, but all in all it's some really good stuff. +1

Done25Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think you'd have to be really careful with the duration or the damage of the ult, because that could quickly get out of hand, but all in all it's some really good stuff. +1

Tanks prefer ults with longer durations for higher total damage, rather than short and powerful bursts. Plus I wanted to spread the effects out so that the enemy team could counteract Mordekaiser by displacing him out of the team fight, or bursting him before he could build up his shield. :D

Cale017Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tanks prefer ults with longer durations for higher total damage, rather than short and powerful bursts. Plus I wanted to spread the effects out so that the enemy team could counteract Mordekaiser by displacing him out of the team fight, or bursting him before he could build up his shield. :D

Oh, I'm well aware of what a tank likes in an ult. Rammus is my main man for when I feel like blowing off some steam haha. But a 12 second ult IS a long time, even for a tank, especially given the type of AoE damage you're putting out with it. If it's gonna last that long it should probably be pulled back a bit in terms of damage, and if the damage per second isn't going to be pulled back then the duration should be instead. Even if it's a long duration, dealing at minimum 2400 damage is a lot. The only other champion I can think of who can rival that kind of sheer damage output with an AoE ult is Vel'koz's, but he has to invest heavily into AP before it reaches that sort of power. Plus, having an ult that last that long but with procs only every second risks not dealing damage quickly enough to cause a difference in a fight that might only last a few seconds, or risks not dealing damage quick enough to stop someone from getting away.

Even for a tank ult, that is a LONG time and a LOT of damage.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I'm well aware of what a tank likes in an ult. Rammus is my main man for when I feel like blowing off some steam haha. But a 12 second ult IS a long time, even for a tank, especially given the type of AoE damage you're putting out with it. If it's gonna last that long it should probably be pulled back a bit in terms of damage, and if the damage per second isn't going to be pulled back then the duration should be instead. Even if it's a long duration, dealing at minimum 2400 damage is a lot. The only other champion I can think of who can rival that kind of sheer damage output with an AoE ult is Vel'koz's, but he has to invest heavily into AP before it reaches that sort of power. Plus, having an ult that last that long but with procs only every second risks not dealing damage quickly enough to cause a difference in a fight that might only last a few seconds, or risks not dealing damage quick enough to stop someone from getting away.

Even for a tank ult, that is a LONG time and a LOT of damage.

Do remember that these numbers are just as examples and are not at all fine tuned. Also, unlike Rammus Mordekaiser has no mobility. And remember that the draining aura gets weaker with every additional champion in range, dealing only 40% to each champion when all 5 are present.

Cale017Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do remember that these numbers are just as examples and are not at all fine tuned. Also, unlike Rammus Mordekaiser has no mobility. And remember that the draining aura gets weaker with every additional champion in range, dealing only 40% to each champion when all 5 are present.

I'm well aware that these are just examples, but for the sake of discussion I was just pointing out that they should be looked at a bit more critically. Mobility has nothing to do with damage output, though, the two aren't linked.

True, but with 5 champions all caught in the ult he's still putting out 200% total AoE damage by affecting all of them, even if the individual damages are all much lower than that. By the end of it, with five people caught in the ult, he'd be dealing 960 damage to each one of them without having to build any additional damage for it. Considering that Rammus does up to 1560 equal damage over 8 seconds, it's safe to say that you could reduce the duration, increase the damage, or altogether remove the negative percentages it accrues based on the people around it.

Giving it a healthy amount of healing would help him to stay in a fight long enough to keep it going, but that would be hard to balance. Even a tank isn't really going to survive being smack in the middle of an enemy team for 12 seconds unless they're just INSANELY fed and levels ahead of the enemy. He would have to have so much healing to allow him to stay in the midst of five enemies that building spellvamp on him would likely break the game in conjunction with his ult.

It's a nice concept, but it definitely does need some tweaking and alterations to really make it work without becoming freelo.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm well aware that these are just examples, but for the sake of discussion I was just pointing out that they should be looked at a bit more critically. Mobility has nothing to do with damage output, though, the two aren't linked.

True, but with 5 champions all caught in the ult he's still putting out 200% total AoE damage by affecting all of them, even if the individual damages are all much lower than that. By the end of it, with five people caught in the ult, he'd be dealing 960 damage to each one of them without having to build any additional damage for it. Considering that Rammus does up to 1560 equal damage over 8 seconds, it's safe to say that you could reduce the duration, increase the damage, or altogether remove the negative percentages it accrues based on the people around it.

Giving it a healthy amount of healing would help him to stay in a fight long enough to keep it going, but that would be hard to balance. Even a tank isn't really going to survive being smack in the middle of an enemy team for 12 seconds unless they're just INSANELY fed and levels ahead of the enemy. He would have to have so much healing to allow him to stay in the midst of five enemies that building spellvamp on him would likely break the game in conjunction with his ult.

It's a nice concept, but it definitely does need some tweaking and alterations to really make it work without becoming freelo.

Do remember that AoE and DoT abilities only get 33% of spellvamp, so I'm not very worried about that breaking his ultimate. And I WANTED the damage to be on the lower side, as the focus should be on the healing part, rather than generating sheild like his normal abilities. To be more specific, I'd prefer higher health gains in exchange for lower dps so he can use his QWE without worrying about the health costs.

TehNACHOJan 6, 20152 votes

I like it.

Personally, if Mordekaiser is tweaked/converted into a tank, he'd probably resemble that of a Fighter Tank compared to a utility tank like, for example, Alistar. In my opinion, if Mordekaiser ever does get converted into a Fighter Tank, he should have a lot of skills based around time and more effectively increasing his effective time in battle (Think Dr. Mundo's built in Tenacity and his Health based - low Cooldown Cleavers. Designed to actively increase Dr. Mundo's effective time in battle and benefits/is powerful based on how long he's fighting).

Dingding123Jan 7, 20152 votes

Mordekaiser's model is so outdated it hurts. And it hurts because his model can be unique, satisfying and fun. The only thing that's changed is how stats are built.

Health is way too big of an issue in this game right now for anyone to get successfully reworked into a tank outside of having Alistar's ultimate. Damage reduction is literally the only stat in the game that can help create a decent tank right now, and I don't want to see something like that poison Mordekaiser's kit.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser's model is so outdated it hurts. And it hurts because his model can be unique, satisfying and fun. The only thing that's changed is how stats are built.

Health is way too big of an issue in this game right now for anyone to get successfully reworked into a tank outside of having Alistar's ultimate. Damage reduction is literally the only stat in the game that can help create a decent tank right now, and I don't want to see something like that poison Mordekaiser's kit.

Riot NEEDS to fix Last Whisper and Penetration in general.

TerffJan 6, 20151 votes

If he lost his ult I would stop playing morde

Done25Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If he lost his ult I would stop playing morde

He didn't lose his ult. He gained a new, less toxic one.

Let me give you an example from one of my Mordekaiser games.

Our team was doing horribly. Draven was at his most powerful peak in LoL history and he was wrecking us hard at something like 12/2/5 25~30 min in.

Then I managed to get off a lucky DFG + R and kill him.

He soloed his entire team and took out two middle towers for me.

Before that fight the score had been something like 7 - 20 in their favor.

With the sheer amount of gold that I got from the Penta + two Towers I was able to get my Deathcap and explode him in every single fight.

We won 10 min later. Because I managed to kill him once with my R.

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

...the key word is "lucky"... In any situation with any champion a lucky kill can have huge impacts on the game...

ZeroQuest96Jan 7, 20151 votes

I don't like these changes. Mostly because I feel like Children of the Grave is a core part of his character. Other than that, I think Morde would best fit a bruiser and not a tank.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

The problem is that this "core part" is flawed in such a way that it simply can't be balanced due to too many variables. (It scales not only on your strength, but on the strength of your target as well.)

If you made him into a bruiser you would have to swap all/most of his scaling over to AD, as bruisers (The actual term from Riot is "Fighter".) specialize in 1v1. Shyvana's Twin Bite. Nasus's Siphoning Strike. Garen's Decisive Strike. Trundle's Chomp. You can't successfully make an AP bruiser without breaking something horribly.

Just look at what happened when Teemo had a base ratio of 0.4 on his E. Spell Blade (0.05) + Nashor Tooth (0.15) increased this to a horrifying 0.6 with the end result being that his AP on hit damage was doing more than had he built raw AD. This was in ADDITION to already boosting his other abilities.

Mordekaiser does not even follow a bruiser/fighter pattern. His Q, W, and E are all AoE abilities that cause as much damage as possible by hitting multiple targets so as to charge his shield faster.

If you think he best fits the Fighter's style more, how would you convert his kit to reflect this? I simply don't see how it could be done.

ZeroQuest96Jan 7, 20151 votes

Instead of writing a novel, I'll mirror your original post while explaining what the changes are.

Passive - Iron Man - Mordekaiser converts 35% of the damage dealt from his abilities into a temporary absorption shield (half as effective against minions and monsters). Maximum shield strength is 90 + (30 × Mordekaiser's level). The shield decays by 3% per second. [Same as live]

Q - Mace of Spades - Mordekaiser launches an empowered basic attack dealing 80/110/140/170/200 (+60% AP) and stunning the first target hit for 1 second. He swings his mace with such force that it echoes out striking and slowing up to 3 additional targets by 10% for 2 seconds.

If the target is alone this ability deals 50% more damage (down from the 65% on live to make room for better ap scaling) and stuns for an additional second.

Basically, I think something similar to this should be his bread and butter. It's similar to your design, but with less lockdown due to a higher damage base.

W - Creeping Death - Mordekaiser creates a protective cloud of metal shards to surround an ally unit or himself for 6 seconds, increasing the target's armor and magic resistance by (10/15/20/25/30) (+10% of Mordekaiser's armor and mr) and dealing (24/38/52/66/80) (+20% AP) magic damage each second to enemies within 250-range.

Same as live but added defensive scaling. [Which may or may not be a bit much]

E - Siphon of Destruction - Mordekaiser afflicts all enemies in a cone in front of him, dealing (70/100/130/160/190) (+40% AP) magic damage an restores (10/15/20/25/30% of the damage as health [Halved against minions and monsters]).

My attempt at giving him a bit of sustain, If it would be problematic just remove the heal and keep the damage and ratio. All in all it's necessary to be a cone to aid in charging the passive.

R - Children of the Grave - Mordekaiser marks an enemy champion making them take 10/15/20% [may need to tweek this percentage, but it gets the idea across] increased damage from all sources.

If the target dies while under the effect of the curse, thier soul is enslaved as a controllable ghost and will follow Mordekaiser for 30 seconds. The Ghost cannot use any active skills or items and deal magic damage with its basic attacks.

Basically, the redesign of his ult is to still allow Mordekaiser to make a 6v4, however, it's now more oriented towards a team effort or all of Mordekaiser's dueling potential.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Instead of writing a novel, I'll mirror your original post while explaining what the changes are.

Passive - Iron Man - Mordekaiser converts 35% of the damage dealt from his abilities into a temporary absorption shield (half as effective against minions and monsters). Maximum shield strength is 90 + (30 × Mordekaiser's level). The shield decays by 3% per second. [Same as live]

Q - Mace of Spades - Mordekaiser launches an empowered basic attack dealing 80/110/140/170/200 (+60% AP) and stunning the first target hit for 1 second. He swings his mace with such force that it echoes out striking and slowing up to 3 additional targets by 10% for 2 seconds.

If the target is alone this ability deals 50% more damage (down from the 65% on live to make room for better ap scaling) and stuns for an additional second.

Basically, I think something similar to this should be his bread and butter. It's similar to your design, but with less lockdown due to a higher damage base.

W - Creeping Death - Mordekaiser creates a protective cloud of metal shards to surround an ally unit or himself for 6 seconds, increasing the target's armor and magic resistance by (10/15/20/25/30) (+10% of Mordekaiser's armor and mr) and dealing (24/38/52/66/80) (+20% AP) magic damage each second to enemies within 250-range.

Same as live but added defensive scaling. [Which may or may not be a bit much]

E - Siphon of Destruction - Mordekaiser afflicts all enemies in a cone in front of him, dealing (70/100/130/160/190) (+40% AP) magic damage an restores (10/15/20/25/30% of the damage as health [Halved against minions and monsters]).

My attempt at giving him a bit of sustain, If it would be problematic just remove the heal and keep the damage and ratio. All in all it's necessary to be a cone to aid in charging the passive.

R - Children of the Grave - Mordekaiser marks an enemy champion making them take 10/15/20% [may need to tweek this percentage, but it gets the idea across] increased damage from all sources.

If the target dies while under the effect of the curse, thier soul is enslaved as a controllable ghost and will follow Mordekaiser for 30 seconds. The Ghost cannot use any active skills or items and deal magic damage with its basic attacks.

Basically, the redesign of his ult is to still allow Mordekaiser to make a 6v4, however, it's now more oriented towards a team effort or all of Mordekaiser's dueling potential.

You lowered the base and scaling on his E in exchange for a very weak healing effect. I don't see his it would be at all useful, especially with doing only half damage to minions.

And you turned his R into a single target version of Vladimir's ult, just with a potential ghost instead of delayed damage. That is not at all helpful in lane and, if it has scaling on the boost effect, might result in an automatic kill if he can curse someone for a team wide +40% boost to all damage in a team fight.

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

Thats incorrect a "Fighter" is someone who does sustained damage but has the ability to take a decent hit as well. Someone like Jarvan is a fighter AKA a bruiser. However Zac on the other hand is also a fighter but he errs more on the defensive/CC side where has Jarvan is more of a offensive typer where he goes in on a single target and locks them down and hits them hard Zac flys in from bumfuck egypt knocks up your team several times and then focuses on doing damage to all targets with his W.

Fighters are not just champs that can 1v1 because those are more like Melee carrys IE Yi, Fiora, Xin Zhao. They are fighters but they are more like Fighter Assassins.

Mordekaiser has the look of a Jarvan type fighter but the playstyle of someone like Viktor where its more poke based then when the chance arises you all in.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thats incorrect a "Fighter" is someone who does sustained damage but has the ability to take a decent hit as well. Someone like Jarvan is a fighter AKA a bruiser. However Zac on the other hand is also a fighter but he errs more on the defensive/CC side where has Jarvan is more of a offensive typer where he goes in on a single target and locks them down and hits them hard Zac flys in from bumfuck egypt knocks up your team several times and then focuses on doing damage to all targets with his W.

Fighters are not just champs that can 1v1 because those are more like Melee carrys IE Yi, Fiora, Xin Zhao. They are fighters but they are more like Fighter Assassins.

Zac isn't a Fighter, he's a Tank. He deals large amounts of ability based AoE damage and CC. Q - AoE skill shot that slows. W - PbAoE E - AoE gapcloser that causes knockback R - PbAoE mobility that causes knockback

Notice how ALL of his skill are AoE and scale only on AP and not AD?

You can't define someone as "does sustained damage and is durable". That's what items you build, not how the champion plays. Sejuani is durable and does sustained damage. Vi is durable and does sustained damage. Amumu is durable and does sustained damage. Xin Zhao is durable and does sustained damage.

But the way in which they do their damage is completely different.

Fighters hate Blind, Tanks hate Silence.

If you Blind J4 he loses a lot of his damage because he can't slap people, but Zac is more bothered by Silence as he can't spam his W.

A really easy way to figure out who is a Fighter and who is a Tank is to just apply a permanent Blind or Silence to them and see how it affects them.

If Sejuani had to fight Vi while they were both silenced Vi would WRECK her. If you blinded J4 and had him fight Amumu the mummy would cry on him untill his shiny armor was rusted solid.

Do Cho'Gath (Tank) or Zac (Tank) care about blind? No. It won't stop any of their abilities.

Does Yi (Fighter) care about silence after he pops Highlander and Wuju Style? Or Trundle (Fighter) after he pops his Frozen Domain? Nope. They will happily continue to beat you up.

Mordekaiser has the look of a Jarvan type fighter but the playstyle of someone like Viktor where its more poke based then when the chance arises you all in.

You say he has the playstyle of someone like Viktor, that's probably because they're both AP powered casters. Earlier in the thread we went over why AP Fighters don't work in LoL. (Tl;Dr - The itemization isn't balanced for it, you can't give someone an AP scaling auto attack of a useful level AND normal abilities that scale well with AP. They simply have no weakness. Ex. Post-buff pre-nerf Teemo and his 0.4 on hit effect.)

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zac isn't a Fighter, he's a Tank. He deals large amounts of ability based AoE damage and CC. Q - AoE skill shot that slows. W - PbAoE E - AoE gapcloser that causes knockback R - PbAoE mobility that causes knockback

Notice how ALL of his skill are AoE and scale only on AP and not AD?

You can't define someone as "does sustained damage and is durable". That's what items you build, not how the champion plays. Sejuani is durable and does sustained damage. Vi is durable and does sustained damage. Amumu is durable and does sustained damage. Xin Zhao is durable and does sustained damage.

But the way in which they do their damage is completely different.

Fighters hate Blind, Tanks hate Silence.

If you Blind J4 he loses a lot of his damage because he can't slap people, but Zac is more bothered by Silence as he can't spam his W.

A really easy way to figure out who is a Fighter and who is a Tank is to just apply a permanent Blind or Silence to them and see how it affects them.

If Sejuani had to fight Vi while they were both silenced Vi would WRECK her. If you blinded J4 and had him fight Amumu the mummy would cry on him untill his shiny armor was rusted solid.

Do Cho'Gath (Tank) or Zac (Tank) care about blind? No. It won't stop any of their abilities.

Does Yi (Fighter) care about silence after he pops Highlander and Wuju Style? Or Trundle (Fighter) after he pops his Frozen Domain? Nope. They will happily continue to beat you up.

You say he has the playstyle of someone like Viktor, that's probably because they're both AP powered casters. Earlier in the thread we went over why AP Fighters don't work in LoL. (Tl;Dr - The itemization isn't balanced for it, you can't give someone an AP scaling auto attack of a useful level AND normal abilities that scale well with AP. They simply have no weakness. Ex. Post-buff pre-nerf Teemo and his 0.4 on hit effect.)

Fighters are not only single target damage dealers.

Jarvan who we both have established is a fight has several AOE moves and several sinle target moves. Also whoever told you fighters are only AD based is wrong. Amumu and Rammus are considered pure tanks in that they benefit from above all else pure tank items. Yi is considered a melee carry/ assassin rather than a fighter similar to Fiora. They have High damage abilities and do excellent damage with their auto attacks but usually dont come loaded with CC and are inherently squishy.

The perfect example of a fighter is Wukong. Who is both tanky and puts out good amounts of damage. He is both a physical caster and and beefy fighter.

The best source to learn about which champ fits into which classification is through Riots own website or the League wiki. Both who consider. Nautilus as another example is considered a pure tank but he could also be classified as a fighter because his damage is sustained rather than through burst and he provides a ton of CC. Gragas is another good example. Gragas used to be played as a true mage however he started off as a tank then evolved into a bruiser then into a pure mage and now hes a fighter. He deals primarily magic damage but his job is to get in the middle of fights and disrupt as many people as he can while putting out hefty amounts of damage to select targets. Zac is considered a pure tank however he can also be classified as a fighter because his damage is sustained rather than through burst (notice the pattern). He is more about Controlling the Area and being directly int he fight and doing as much damage as he can to anyone he can.

You cant classify fighters as being primarily Physical based or magical based otherwise things will get ridiculously confusing very fast. Warwick would be one of those Issues where you wouldnt classify him as a fighter simply because he does most of his damage is magic damage and its sustained so what does that make warwick then?

Hes not a mage thats for sure? He might be a tank but that isn't right either but he can fullfill the role. Hes not a Melee carry thats for damn sure. Hes not a ranged carry unless hes throwing his arms at people. Hes not a support.

That leaves a fighter but according to your logic fighters dont do primarily magic damage so then Warwick has no place.

See where im getting.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fighters are not only single target damage dealers.

Jarvan who we both have established is a fight has several AOE moves and several sinle target moves. Also whoever told you fighters are only AD based is wrong. Amumu and Rammus are considered pure tanks in that they benefit from above all else pure tank items. Yi is considered a melee carry/ assassin rather than a fighter similar to Fiora. They have High damage abilities and do excellent damage with their auto attacks but usually dont come loaded with CC and are inherently squishy.

Jarvan's Q shreds armor and his E increases his speed, both of which enhance his auto attacking power. His W slows and his R is a tingle target dash that creates terrain. Both of these keep people close so he can continue to attack them. He very much fits the definition of "auto attack focused".

The perfect example of a fighter is Wukong. Who is both tanky and puts out good amounts of damage. He is both a physical caster and and beefy fighter.

This I agree with. Wukong is a Fighter with an assasin playstyle. (Assasin on its own isn't a class, it's just a playstyle denoting high mobility/slipperiness.)

The best source to learn about which champ fits into which classification is through Riots own website or the League wiki. Both who consider. Nautilus as another example is considered a pure tank but he could also be classified as a fighter because his damage is sustained rather than through burst and he provides a ton of CC. Gragas is another good example. Gragas used to be played as a true mage however he started off as a tank then evolved into a bruiser then into a pure mage and now hes a fighter. He deals primarily magic damage but his job is to get in the middle of fights and disrupt as many people as he can while putting out hefty amounts of damage to select targets. Zac is considered a pure tank however he can also be classified as a fighter because his damage is sustained rather than through burst (notice the pattern). He is more about Controlling the Area and being directly int he fight and doing as much damage as he can to anyone he can.

You say "Pure Tank", but what makes a pure "Tank"? What durability does Nautalis offer that Jarvan doesn't? They both come with shields. Why is Amumu better than Vi? Because he gets a flat physical damage reduction instead of her sheild? Why would Malzahar have a harder time taking out Amumu than he would Vi?

You cant classify fighters as being primarily Physical based or magical based otherwise things will get ridiculously confusing very fast. Warwick would be one of those Issues where you wouldnt classify him as a fighter simply because he does most of his damage is magic damage and its sustained so what does that make warwick then? Hes not a mage thats for sure? He might be a tank but that isn't right either but he can fullfill the role.

Hes not a Melee carry thats for damn sure.

Really? Because before the last nerf WW was in every single game going on 20/0/5 rampages. His high power long duration attack speed buff is all he (and his team) needed to wipe out towers. I would actually level it over Q just for taking out towers faster after a gank.

Hes not a ranged carry unless hes throwing his arms at people. Hes not a support.

That leaves a fighter but according to your logic fighters dont do primarily magic damage so then Warwick has no place.

Warwick is an outdated mess. Notice how hard he got axed after the Devourer incident? Riot has been intending to completely remake him for ages. Right now he's in the same spot as Poppy. If he ever sees competitive play again he's going to be beaten black and blue by Morello's nerf bat.

And I didn't say that fighters did primarily physical damage, I said they're primarily auto attack based. Which causes them by nature to lean towards AD. Warwick is a solid Fighter. And if Warwick's Q was re-balanced to scale off of AD and lifesteal he would play the exact same, but have a much more coherent and expansive item selection that wouldn't be so biased towards on hit/attack speed. I should not be going AP Nashor's Tooth and having it actually work.

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Jarvan's Q shreds armor and his E increases his speed, both of which enhance his auto attacking power. His W slows and his R is a tingle target dash that creates terrain. Both of these keep people close so he can continue to attack them. He very much fits the definition of "auto attack focused".

Most of Jarvans damage comes from his passive, E-Q combo and ult. His autos are his last resort once hes exhausted those resources.

This I agree with. Wukong is a Fighter with an assasin playstyle. (Assasin on its own isn't a class, it's just a playstyle denoting high mobility/slipperiness.)

Wukong is the definition of a fighter not an assassin playstyle. Wukong Jumps into the fight pops his ult then pops his W and goes for the the back line if possible if not his Q helps make short work of tanks.

Also Assassin does not mean high mobility in slipperiness although with the way Riots going lately and champs like Zed and Fizz around its quickly becoming close to true. Assassins are all about selective targeting and blowing up the enemy carries as quickly possible and then getting out fast to blow up the next high value target. 90 percent of the time thats the carry or the enemy mid laner. It is everyones job but the supports to try and kill the enemy carries without dying themselves but assassins do it better with a load of instant burst damage and getting out quickly with their spells. Leblanc/Fizz/Zed/Talon All assassins Wukong doesnt even come close to that playstyle. He has his initial suprise damage and then his ult but hes never going to be doing assassin level damage with the likes of Zed and leblanc.

You say "Pure Tank", but what makes a pure "Tank"? What durability does Nautalis offer that Jarvan doesn't? They both come with shields. Why is Amumu better than Vi? Because he gets a flat physical damage reduction instead of her sheild? Why would Malzahar have a harder time taking out Amumu than he would Vi?

I....I cant believe what im reading......

You ask what Nautilus brings that jarvan doesn't...... Im sorry but if you have to ask that i have to question your ability to truly understand the in game concepts.

Not only are they worlds apart but their whole focus is completely different.

First off Nautilus brings one of the most powerful CC initiations in the game. He brings one of the most Vicious CC initiations in the game. He can lock someone down for i believe up to 4-6 seconds if timed properly. Jarvan can only manage 2-3 seconds at most if he times his shield perfectly.

Second Jarvan's Goal is to get to the back line and wreak havoc. Nautilus' goal is to initiate a fight and try and lock up he carry but if not possible to peel for his teammates and protect his carry with his CC which did i mention is incredibly vicious. A pure tank is a champion whose job is to initiate fights and soak up as much damage as possible and lockdown as many people as possible. Amumu has his Q and his Ult for these very reasons he gets into a favorable position and then locks down as many people as he can with his ult and his team follows up then he sits on top of a target while his team does the big damage for him.

Warwick is an outdated mess. Notice how hard he got axed after the Devourer incident? Riot has been intending to completely remake him for ages. Right now he's in the same spot as Poppy. If he ever sees competitive play again he's going to be beaten black and blue by Morello's nerf bat.

BAHAHAHAHAHAAH

Warwick is actually still a very good champion he is one of the safest junglers in the game and his post 6 ganks are incredibly powerful and his "drain Tank" style of gameplay allows him to stay in fights for a long time. The reason Devourer became a problem is because WW would farm it up then gank use his ult along with the smite that does true damage on your basic attacks and suddenly he was doing massive massive damage in the span of a few seconds and there was nothing you could do about it unless you rushed Qss. To make matters worse was it was all early game so people werent very tanky so he was instagibbing them.

Poppy is a mess only because she doesn't truly fit anywhere. Shes a weak jungler, a mediocre top laner and she cant really do any other lane without being dumped on hard. Then there is the fact that when she does do well she becomes incredibly unstoppable and can dive bomb carries and no one can do a thing about it with her ult. This is why they said if poppy ever becomes good they will have to nerf her into oblivion because she would be that destructive to games.

and I didn't say that fighters did primarily physical damage, I said they're primarily auto attack based. Which Warwick is. If Warwick's Q was re-balanced to scale off of AD and lifesteal he would play the exact same, but have a much more coherent and expansive item selection that wouldn't be so biased towards on hit/attack speed. I should not be going AP Nashor's Tooth and having it actually work.

Primarily auto attack based is basically saying they are primarily physical damage. Auto attacks do physical damage whether you like it or not. Warwick is primarly auto attack based but all his damage is magic damage. His autos do physical and magical damage and his Q and R do magical damage. If you are building Nashors on him you are doing something very very wrong as while the item seems good on paper its too expensive and it stops you from getting other necessary items. Devourers and bloodthirster (if even that sometimes) is all you really need. Also of course if you only changed what his Q scales off of and not how the ability works of course its going to play the same.

Thats like taking an apple and changing its shape into a pear shape. Its still an apple and it still tastes like an apple it just looks a pear.

I decided to look you up and your primary game time is spent on dominion where the balance is completely different and you are unranked. As fun as it is talking about this with you its clear you still dont understand the finer mechanics of this game. I have been playing this game for a long time and one of my hobbies is theory crafting things in this game and have a group of buddies who also play competitively and we get together and theorycraft strategies sometimes. I do this for fun man and i also play competitively so i have done my homework.

I highly suggest watching some streamers like nightblue he is very informative and teaches alot on his stream and also look up the base mechanics of the game as these will aslo improve your playstyle.

Done25Jan 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I decided to look you up and your primary game time is spent on dominion where the balance is completely different and you are unranked. As fun as it is talking about this with you its clear you still dont understand the finer mechanics of this game. I have been playing this game for a long time and one of my hobbies is theory crafting things in this game and have a group of buddies who also play competitively and we get together and theorycraft strategies sometimes. I do this for fun man and i also play competitively so i have done my homework.

I highly suggest watching some streamers like nightblue he is very informative and teaches alot on his stream and also look up the base mechanics of the game as these will aslo improve your playstyle.

I don't have time atm for your whole post, I will get it later, but I'll just leave this here: I spend most of my time on dominion because they're fast matches where I can test out new builds.

I was Silver back in S3, but gave up on ranked due to the sheer amount of trolls, rage AFKs, and trash talkers. From what I had seen on gold+ streams it didn't, and still doesn't, get any better up at the higher ranks. :/

http://imgur.com/R6SDnGX Look at the gold boarders around the people I get matched with if you need proof. [We fought hard, but sadly lost due to Vayne never connecting to the match...]

Done25Jan 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Most of Jarvans damage comes from his passive, E-Q combo and ult. His autos are his last resort once hes exhausted those resources.

Wukong is the definition of a fighter not an assassin playstyle. Wukong Jumps into the fight pops his ult then pops his W and goes for the the back line if possible if not his Q helps make short work of tanks.

Also Assassin does not mean high mobility in slipperiness although with the way Riots going lately and champs like Zed and Fizz around its quickly becoming close to true. Assassins are all about selective targeting and blowing up the enemy carries as quickly possible and then getting out fast to blow up the next high value target. 90 percent of the time thats the carry or the enemy mid laner. It is everyones job but the supports to try and kill the enemy carries without dying themselves but assassins do it better with a load of instant burst damage and getting out quickly with their spells. Leblanc/Fizz/Zed/Talon All assassins Wukong doesnt even come close to that playstyle. He has his initial suprise damage and then his ult but hes never going to be doing assassin level damage with the likes of Zed and leblanc.

Wukong does not deal great amounts of single target damage like Fizz. He does however, deal a big burst of AoE with his ult (and Hydra with autos). And thanks to his ability to decoy and cloak, he can dodge/hide from the initial team fight burst and position himself to where he can deal the most damge with the help of with his dash.

Once his initial burst is over he can then re-decoy to move out of the way then Nimbus Strike in back at his next target and Crushing blow to ruin their armor, taking them out one by one.

I....I cant believe what im reading......

I didn't ask about CC or initiation. I asked about durability. What makes is an Amumu with Omen better at eating tower shots than Jarvan with the same items?

Xela SyabJan 7, 20151 votes

I have an interesting Idea for morde, his q has knockup on the target.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ekgqtMVh,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-01-07T05:36:01.911+0000)

I have an interesting Idea for morde, his q has knockup on the target.

Why knock ups? o_O Does Yas REALLY need more people for Ez mode Rs?

Xela SyabJan 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why knock ups? o_O Does Yas REALLY need more people for Ez mode Rs?

well i think it would be good for morde theme wise since the maces pop out of the ground and help him deal against junglers if he pushes since most jungs are melee it would help him escape or deal enough damage to survive and kill. Since mord doesnt have any cc anyway it's hard for him to combo enough damage anyway. plus there would be counterplay to this since morde is melee and you just have to kite him.

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

Hmm i dont think your rework is bad or wrong, i just personally like his ult the way it is. If i was going to change something about his Ult it would be how much life is siphoned or how quickly it is. The ult does crappy damage and barely heals enough to be useful if you arnt like 20/0 fed.

The other thing i would change is his passive. It would be nice to turn it into sustain similar to Rek'sai something like: When Mordekaiser maxes out his shield, if he doesnt take damage for X amount of seconds then the shield will start to heal him over time. Obviously it would only heal him for a portion of his shield but at least he would have some built in sustain similar to Vlad's Q (they are somewhat similar champions).

Some other small things like his Q being able to hit turrets and inhibs, that would help him take down turrets faster. His E has wonky range, sometimes it will hit things ridiculously far from Morde, sometimes it wont hit things standing right in front of him, sometimes it will hit everything around a certain target and completely miss them, sometimes it will only hit 1 or 2 targets even though there are like 5 or 6 in range.

The W is one of the only abilities he has that is absolutely wonderful, nothing really needs to be changed but if something was going to be changed i would recommend upping the armor and mr boost on it only slightly. He isnt a tank so 10 Armor and MR is really nothing special.

Also i think his base move speed is too low for a champion that has no range, no mobility in his kit, and no CC. I think he is only 1 of 8 champs with no CC and thats fine and all but the other 7 at least have some form of mobility (Corki has a jump, Ez a warp, Yi alpha strike and his ult, Fiora has 2 dashes, Kat has an instawarp, Sivir her ult, and Nid has her cougar form and leap; also 4 out of the 7 are ranged, Fiora and Yi can go untargetable, and Kat is Kat...). So either he needs CC or a bit more mobility.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hmm i dont think your rework is bad or wrong, i just personally like his ult the way it is. If i was going to change something about his Ult it would be how much life is siphoned or how quickly it is. The ult does crappy damage and barely heals enough to be useful if you arnt like 20/0 fed.

Well you can't really compact the damage or he gets even MORE bursty than he already is. And people don't use it for the sustain anyways, as the ghost you get on kill is far more vital.

The other thing i would change is his passive. It would be nice to turn it into sustain similar to Rek'sai something like: When Mordekaiser maxes out his shield, if he doesnt take damage for X amount of seconds then the shield will start to heal him over time. Obviously it would only heal him for a portion of his shield but at least he would have some built in sustain similar to Vlad's Q (they are somewhat similar champions).

His passive is actually a very strong balance tool on him. Using his abilities drains his health, giving him a very real cost to them. His temporary shield prevents harass, so careful consistent use of his abilities is key. If he got real HP back like you suggested then he would have no reason to not spam his abilities all the time

Some other small things like his Q being able to hit turrets and inhibs, that would help him take down turrets faster. His E has wonky range, sometimes it will hit things ridiculously far from Morde, sometimes it wont hit things standing right in front of him, sometimes it will hit everything around a certain target and completely miss them, sometimes it will only hit 1 or 2 targets even though there are like 5 or 6 in range.

His Q really should damage towers. Riot is really inconsistent about that. :/ I wouldn't be surprised if his E's hitbox was wonky, he IS a fairly old champion badly in need of a tech and visual upgrade.

The W is one of the only abilities he has that is absolutely wonderful, nothing really needs to be changed but if something was going to be changed i would recommend upping the armor and mr boost on it only slightly. He isnt a tank so 10 Armor and MR is really nothing special.

I agree. His W is the best balanced part of his kit. I wouldn't mind removing the "Target others" part in exchange for more power though. Or maybe the ability to toggle it in echange for HP per second like Mundo's Burning Agony.

Also i think his base move speed is too low for a champion that has no range, no mobility in his kit, and no CC. I think he is only 1 of 8 champs with no CC and thats fine and all but the other 7 at least have some form of mobility (Corki has a jump, Ez a warp, Yi alpha strike and his ult, Fiora has 2 dashes, Kat has an instawarp, Sivir her ult, and Nid has her cougar form and leap; also 4 out of the 7 are ranged, Fiora and Yi can go untargetable, and Kat is Kat...). So either he needs CC or a bit more mobility.

It USED to be that in exchange for no mobility he had godly damage and survivability. Like Darius. But as we've seen, pure damage is really hard to balance and he got nerfed. Like Darius...

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

Hmm actually the sustain on that ult has saved me and earned me several "pentakills", i say it with the "'s because they were unofficial pentas, but killing all 5 of them is a penta in my book lol. It does have its uses but only in a 1v1 unless you are fed, then you cant die.

His passive is actually a very strong balance tool on him. Using his abilities drains his health, giving him a very real cost to them. His temporary shield prevents harass, so careful consistent use of his abilities is key. If he got real HP back like you suggested then he would have no reason to not spam his abilities all the time

I agree that it is balancing but his shield really only blocks small amounts of harass anyways, to keep it up at a level you can block decent amount of harass you need to spam spells. Also this would only work when he is in lane by himself, so its not like he can just heal constantly, but it wasnt a great idea to begin with. I just feel he needs some sort of health regain mechanic like all the other health users.

I agree. His W is the best balanced part of his kit. I wouldn't mind removing the "Target others" part in exchange for more power though. Or maybe the ability to toggle it in echange for HP per second like Mundo's Burning Agony

I actually like that i can put it on others though, i have kill secured several kills with it and it helps deal damage in team fights to put it on like a Yi and you can just stand in the front lines while he goes berserk in the back line.

The difference between Darius and Morde is that Darius is still viable lol Morde has a tough time against like 90% of the current meta champions.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hmm actually the sustain on that ult has saved me and earned me several "pentakills", i say it with the "'s because they were unofficial pentas, but killing all 5 of them is a penta in my book lol. It does have its uses but only in a 1v1 unless you are fed, then you cant die.

Yes. But I'm betting that was more of a happy coincidence rather than you intentionally using it for the heal.

I agree that it is balancing but his shield really only blocks small amounts of harass anyways, to keep it up at a level you can block decent amount of harass you need to spam spells. Also this would only work when he is in lane by himself, so its not like he can just heal constantly, but it wasnt a great idea to begin with. I just feel he needs some sort of health regain mechanic like all the other health users.

That's what his R was SUPPOSED to be for, but the "ghost on kill" part is so strong that people save it until they're sure they can get the kill while it's still up.

In the mini-rework I put the focus back onto the "Mordekaiser sustains from the suffering of others." aspect of his kit by transforming his R into a giant mobile Fiddlesticks Drain.

I actually like that i can put it on others though, i have kill secured several kills with it and it helps deal damage in team fights to put it on like a Yi and you can just stand in the front lines while he goes berserk in the back line.

It's not a big thing, the ability is fine as is. But if they had to free up his power budget anywhere this is what I would target first.

The difference between Darius and Morde is that Darius is still viable lol Morde has a tough time against like 90% of the current meta champions.

Right up until lane ends. Then our poor axe man just can't catch anything, not even a break. XD

StephenizgodJan 7, 20151 votes

Mmmm no, i guess i am one of the few people who knows it has some sustain.

You know honestly i wouldn't mind if the ghost was weaker to give his ult some more power and life siphoning. Its like i dislike your version, i just like the ghost so much more. It is what makes him Mordekaiser, at least in my opinion.

Darius can be good late game, its just highly dependent on how well your team crushed lanes. If they didnt, well then yea Darius cant do much even if fed.

Bongo JohnsonJan 7, 20151 votes

No, they should do for him what they did to Gragas . he was always intended to be a Bruiser Mage and they should tweak him to fit back into that role. Mordekaiser 's best attribute was never his damage or utility, but his ability to smash through minions and towers. Before Riot reworks Character genres, he was a Mage/ Pusher and that's exactly what he should remain to be. I agree 100% that he needs tweeks but to make him a full out tank would be over doing it and, unreasonable. do you think Tank Mordekaiser would have more play than the current ? i don't think so personally.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Spells,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ekgqtMVh,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-01-07T08:07:31.159+0000)

No, they should do for him what they did to . he was always intended to be a Bruiser Mage and they should tweak him to fit back into that role. 's best attribute was never his damage or utility, but his ability to smash through minions and towers. Before Riot reworks Character genres, he was a Mage/ Pusher and that's exactly what he should remain to be. I agree 100% that he needs tweeks but to make him a full out tank would be over doing it and, unreasonable. do you think Tank would have more play than the current ? i don't think so personally.

Fighter. Say it with me. "Fighter". Not bruiser. Riot really needs to clarify that for people so they stop getting confused. :/

You want to know why people can't have ranged AoE weave clear at no cost? Because then we go back to champions instantly clearing each others waves in under 5 seconds and the lane becomes stalled untill a good 20+ min in.

And I did mention earlier that they should let him Q towers to increase his ability to take them out.

You say that Tank Mordekaiser would never be played, but he's already half way there. His W provides early game armor/mr, and in team fights he can generate huge amounts of shield to make himself hard to wear down.

You're just confusing Tank with "All durability, no damage", which is not at all true.

Bongo JohnsonJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fighter. Say it with me. "Fighter". Not bruiser. Riot really needs to clarify that for people so they stop getting confused. :/

You want to know why people can't have ranged AoE weave clear at no cost? Because then we go back to champions instantly clearing each others waves in under 5 seconds and the lane becomes stalled untill a good 20+ min in.

And I did mention earlier that they should let him Q towers to increase his ability to take them out.

You're just confusing Tank with "All durability, no damage", which is not at all true

i agree with your Q tweek, and i also see what you mean about the tank meaning. So even if you build him hybrid like Liandrys, Rylais, ect. , you lessen his overall potency. i feel he is, in some ways, very cleverly designed, Because, he is great while building big damage due to his passive. he throws out his e and q and he has a bit more than half of it and that is enough for a turret shot and a bit of harass. and then you have your ult to save your health bar if things get thick, so it dampens his game play to have him scale more towards HP and resistances. and also, you dont need to be a cunt about your preferred wordage. the bruiser part wasn't even a big deal, that's really just the way they described Gragas during his changes and i just regurgitated it. the whole point was he was a specialist in pushing and they should keep it that way.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Spells,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ekgqtMVh,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-01-07T08:58:55.781+0000)

i agree with your Q tweek, and i also see what you mean about the tank meaning. So even if you build him hybrid like Liandrys, Rylais, ect. , you lessen his overall potency. i feel he is, in some ways, very cleverly designed, Because, he is great while building big damage due to his passive. he throws out his e and q and he has a bit more than half of it and that is enough for a turret shot and a bit of harass. and then you have your ult to save your health bar if things get thick, so it dampens his game play to have him scale more towards HP and resistances. and also, you dont need to be a cunt about your preferred wordage. the bruiser part wasn't even a big deal, that's really just the way they described Gragas during his changes and i just regurgitated it. the whole point was he was a specialist in pushing and they should keep it that way.

I wouldn't be that irritated, but I've already corrected people in the thread about how bruiser -> Fighter.

Also, why do you think his damage would drop just because he's a Tank? Tanks do lots of damage. It just happens to be spread out in an AoE. Such as Sejuani's "Flail of the Northern Winds" Vs Shyvana's "Twin Bite" or Trundle's "Chomp!".

In Mordekaiser's case, his Q and R can spread out to hit multiple.targets for less.damage per target, but a higher amount in total. Which helps charge his durability mechanic, the sheild.

SohleksJan 7, 20151 votes

I don't play Morde, but I don't think so.

We did that to Sion already...

Morde is a metal guitar soul monster. He can probably do dark guitar/ soul magic... Oh. That's not his base, it's one of his skins. But still I think there's some otherwordly power to him.

So now I decide to read the post. Interesting ult. I think people will be sad if Morde loses ghosts though.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't play Morde, but I don't think so.

We did that to Sion already...

Morde is a metal guitar soul monster. He can probably do dark guitar/ soul magic... Oh. That's not his base, it's one of his skins. But still I think there's some otherwordly power to him.

So now I decide to read the post. Interesting ult. I think people will be sad if Morde loses ghosts though.

People love it, but the ghost is what is holding him back. To put it in Riot's terms, the thing is hogging his "power budget" due to how strong and game changing it COULD be.

SohleksJan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

People love it, but the ghost is what is holding him back. To put it in Riot's terms, the thing is hogging his "power budget" due to how strong and game changing it COULD be.

Maybe we can lower the power of the ghost(s) or change its purpose to keep it. But it's possible if the ghost is no longer a potential carry people will stop caring for it.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Maybe we can lower the power of the ghost(s) or change its purpose to keep it. But it's possible if the ghost is no longer a potential carry people will stop caring for it.

If if we have to nerf it until they don't care for it, then why even bother keeping it?

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

I disagree about mordekaiser suffering from what you speak of.

I feel what mordekaiser suffers from is a lack of thematic identity. He looks like a giant badass metal wearing mace wielding dark knight. But plays like a squishy ranged mage with a random melee ability thrown in there. I have said this many many many times MORDEKAISER NEEDS GAMEPLAY THAT MATCHES HIS THEME. Squishy magic armor plated dark knight sounds like 2 different things clashing right? Thats because it does.

When one hears dark knight they think of this http://artfiles.alphacoders.com/479/47974.jpg (or batman.....) However when you play mordekaiser you get the exact opposite of that. You get this short/mid range mage who relies on doing damage to keep his shield up but then he has this random ass melee ability which he rarely uses or gets the chance to use and then his ult is a...... a dot that gains him a ghost? I know hes supposed to be a commander but hecarim makes a better commander than him with his ult actually looking like a cavalry charge.

IMO they should make mordekaiser a fighter. His Q is the perfect starting point. Its a great ability and its really fun to use and see. Its basically a big ass overhead smash with this giant mace and then it spawns smaller maces which seek out other targets. Its like a melee version of Vlads e but better. I think they should just make him a fighter and get it over with and keep the shield ability.

So keep his Q and his shield and ditch the rest and remake him.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I disagree about mordekaiser suffering from what you speak of.

I feel what mordekaiser suffers from is a lack of thematic identity. He looks like a giant badass metal wearing mace wielding dark knight. But plays like a squishy ranged mage with a random melee ability thrown in there. I have said this many many many times MORDEKAISER NEEDS GAMEPLAY THAT MATCHES HIS THEME. Squishy magic armor plated dark knight sounds like 2 different things clashing right? Thats because it does.

When one hears dark knight they think of this http://artfiles.alphacoders.com/479/47974.jpg (or batman.....) However when you play mordekaiser you get the exact opposite of that. You get this short/mid range mage who relies on doing damage to keep his shield up but then he has this random ass melee ability which he rarely uses or gets the chance to use and then his ult is a...... a dot that gains him a ghost? I know hes supposed to be a commander but hecarim makes a better commander than him with his ult actually looking like a cavalry charge.

IMO they should make mordekaiser a fighter. His Q is the perfect starting point. Its a great ability and its really fun to use and see. Its basically a big ass overhead smash with this giant mace and then it spawns smaller maces which seek out other targets. Its like a melee version of Vlads e but better. I think they should just make him a fighter and get it over with and keep the shield ability.

So keep his Q and his shield and ditch the rest and remake him.

So in other words, you want a completely different champion? People are already unhappy about me changing the R, going so far as to say it's iconic and core to his character. I can only imagine what would happen if his W and E were removed as well.

I'd write more, but your post is huge and my phone tiny. I'll reply more when I canget on a computer.

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

Would you rather leave him the way he is?

If your answer is yes then fine lets keep mordekaiser in the sorry state he is because no matter what they do to his kit it will never ever be near a competitive level unless they give him retarded numbers buffs which would then put him as another resourceless (his health costs are miniscule later) infinite poke wave clear champion. Do we really need another one of those with the likes of Zed already around? I mean we all love dealing with zed dont we?

Nothing short of a complete rehaul of this champion could fix his problems.

From his completely binary design, Clashing Thematics and playstyle, old ability designs, and his clunky model he is jus one big problem after another. When i first bought mordekaiser i thought he looked cool like a big badass heavy armored warrior who walks in with his big ass mace and smashes people to smithereens all while being able to absord a fair amount of damage. What i got however was a squishy poke mage. Its stuff like this that Riot has tried to avoid in the past so why they continue to let him stew in his archaic design is beyond me but he needs all those above things fixed before he will ever truly feel well designed and nothing short of a relaunch will fix that or a complete ability overhaul will fix him.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Would you rather leave him the way he is?

If your answer is yes then fine lets keep mordekaiser in the sorry state he is because no matter what they do to his kit it will never ever be near a competitive level unless they give him retarded numbers buffs which would then put him as another resourceless (his health costs are miniscule later) infinite poke wave clear champion. Do we really need another one of those with the likes of Zed already around? I mean we all love dealing with zed dont we?

Nothing short of a complete rehaul of this champion could fix his problems.

From his completely binary design, Clashing Thematics and playstyle, old ability designs, and his clunky model he is jus one big problem after another. When i first bought mordekaiser i thought he looked cool like a big badass heavy armored warrior who walks in with his big ass mace and smashes people to smithereens all while being able to absord a fair amount of damage. What i got however was a squishy poke mage. Its stuff like this that Riot has tried to avoid in the past so why they continue to let him stew in his archaic design is beyond me but he needs all those above things fixed before he will ever truly feel well designed and nothing short of a relaunch will fix that or a complete ability overhaul will fix him.

If I wanted him left as is I wouldn't have made this thread. Riot has fully admitted that Mordekaiser is outdated, especially his clunky old model.

His infinite poke wave clear is one of the things I attempted to tackle, by converting his E into HP% damage. This keeps it effective against champions, but prevents the "1shotlolfarm" that AoE waveclear is infamous for.

HandheldBrandonJan 7, 20151 votes

Do we really need more HP percent damage abilities?

Im pretty sure people are sick of those already especially considering riot recently had a streak with champions all having that in some way shape or form. If he has an HP percent poke thats even worse because then he just will sit in lane and chunk you all day long and he will do it at no cost.

The only way an HP percent poke would be acceptable is if it was gated by a cost and decent one at that. Honestly does Mordekaiser look like the kind of champion thats going to sit there and poke you? No he looks like the kind thats going to crush your skull if you even blink at him in an offensive voice.

I stand by what i said in that the only way to truly fix Mordekaiser is to redefine what Mordekaiser is and to even do that they need to decide on his theme because right now he has none.

Done25Jan 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do we really need more HP percent damage abilities?

Im pretty sure people are sick of those already especially considering riot recently had a streak with champions all having that in some way shape or form. If he has an HP percent poke thats even worse because then he just will sit in lane and chunk you all day long and he will do it at no cost.

The only way an HP percent poke would be acceptable is if it was gated by a cost and decent one at that. Honestly does Mordekaiser look like the kind of champion thats going to sit there and poke you? No he looks like the kind thats going to crush your skull if you even blink at him in an offensive voice.

I stand by what i said in that the only way to truly fix Mordekaiser is to redefine what Mordekaiser is and to even do that they need to decide on his theme because right now he has none.

HP% abilities actually serve a very vital purpose, Riot just hasn't enlightened people as to what it is and they (Riot's balance team) are mostly using them wrong anyways.

HP% is how you make an ability that is strong versus champions, but weak at wave clear. 10% against a champion with 1500 hp would cause 150 damage. 10% against a minion with 500 HP would cause only 50. This SIGNIFICANTLY weakens an ability's wave clear.

You claim that max HP% would be overpowered against champions, and more specifically while in lane, but that's actually wrong. Between the ability that deals 500 damage and the one that deals 20%, which deals more against the Udyr with 2500 HP? Either way, it maths out to the same 500 damage. But the 500 flat damage ability can be used to nuke waves, the HP% can't.

The numbers I placed in the OP are actually Mordekaiser's current numbers converted against a 2000 HP target.