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I wish mages had more defensive items...

The Dreamwalker··50 votes·14,070 views

I mean, honestly, I seriously wish they had more defensive items, even if those items didn't provide much damage-wise. I mean, currently, mages have 3 total protection items. item 3102 item 3157 item 3040. However, one of these items provide no defensive stats, which is totally fair considering that you either build item 3285 or item 3040 nowadays as a first item. However, that doesn't mean that shouldn't be more protective mage items out there. (Also, really, mages have 1 defensive item for enemy AP champions, and 1 item for enemy AD champions).

AD Champions have a whole plethora of defensive items (by defensive, I am adding things that give people a protective active, passive, or just stats in general). item 3156 item 3139 item 3814 item 3053 item 3026 item 3812 (Of course there are more, but these are what came to mind first). Here, AD Champions have at least 2 AP Protective items and at least 2 AD protective items, then there are items that offer health and their protective passives/actives. I also feel that AD champions are able to build more than one boot. I always feel like I have to build item 3020 boots to stay relevant as a mage.

123 Comments

Daddy Ants32 votes

I wish Zed actually had to land his abilities to kill me.

I wish talon didnt need to press 2 buttons + 1 summoner to 100-0 me at level 2.

I wish Jhin wasn't moving at mach 3 speeds due to his bullshit passive and stormrazor.

BLIGHTBRINGER3 votes

I wish Zed actually had to land his abilities to kill me.

Tbh at this point, I would just say that his R Deathmark damage should only stack with ability damage (since his basic attacks stack on the death-mark damage, which doesn't punish if you miss all your abilities that you can still potentially kill the target).

I wish Jhin wasn't moving at mach 3 speeds due to his bullshit passive and stormrazor.

That issue is quite tricky to solve, as he is only good because of these attack speed interactions from runes (Hail of Blades). If his Passive Attack Speed scallings would get nerfed this would effect his power level from items, and such drastic changes can really effect a champion.

Requiemsfire24 votes

item 3027 item 3157 item 3116 item 3040 item 3001 item 3102 ???

Danjeng16 votes

Abyssal Mask isn't a mage item (optimally). Rylai's only gives health. That's the equivalent of saying Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, and Titanic Hydra (which all give more health) are defensive AD items.

I mean realistically in terms of resistences, mages really only have Zhonya's to counter AD, and Banshee's Veil to counter AP. What OP is saying is that it would be nice if there was another AP item that granted resistances or a defensive passive. For example, as a Ryze player, Zhonya's passive isn't the best (don't get me wrong it still has its uses) since his cooldowns are already quite short, and stasis would only halt his dps. But I build it anyway to counter AD assassins.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

abyssal mask doesn't work anymore

but you forgot: item 3165 item 3151

TheSingularity6 votes

Tbh if we're gonna include those then we have to throw item 3022 item 3025item 3071 item 3078 item 3072 on the AD side

Handin Out Naps6 votes

Questionable considering not every ad champion can build those items. But most ap champs can build those items.

Zeromatsu15 votes

You really gonna list these item 3027 item 3116 as tank items? Then let's count item 3748 item 3078 item 3022 item 3071 too, right?

And that mask isn't a mage item.

Shablagoo8 votes

But they arent tank items they are defensive items, and all those are defensive items. When has health not been a defensive stat?

DuskDaUmbreon23 votes

You have to note that there are lots of kinds of AD champions (Assassins, divers, juggernauts, marksmen, skirmishers), while there are only a few kinds of mages, and they can all use their two defensive items just fine, while there's no way in hell a Juggernaut could use item 3814 well, and marksmen are literally incapable of buying item 3053.

Also, there are a lot of mage items with health. item 3165 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 2065 all give HP and AP, four of them are viable on midlane mages, and hell the four of them could be in the same build. Toss a item 3040 into that, and you actually have a legitimate build for a few champions. HP isn't armor/MR, sure, but it's still a defensive stat (and actually a fairly effective one against a lot of mages).

SpecterVonBaren16 votes

This thread is incredibly disingenuous.

The Dreamwalker1 votes

I mean, I cannot change your opinion about my post, nor will I because you are entitled to your opinion, but if you could, could you clarify how I am being disingenuous with this post?

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

You left out mage items with HP and listed several items AD champions use as if all AD champions use all of those items.

SweedishGunner2 votes

If mage items with HP count then things like Black Clever, Trinity Force and Frozen Mallet would count for AD champions.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

And not all AD champions can use those effectively.

SweedishGunner1 votes

But every AD champion can use at least one. Basically all AD champs that aren't marksmen can use Black Clever, but it isn't a 'defensive item'.

Shablagoo1 votes

They would, because they give health, I dont get how people dont get that health isnt a defensive stat.

AirKingNeo12 votes

lists all the AD defensive items

pretends every AD champion has access to all of them

veigarbage can2 votes

{quoted}

lists all the AD defensive items

pretends every AD champion has access to all of them

lists all the AP defensive items can build all of them because there's only 2 of them that give armor/MR lul

AirKingNeo9 votes

lists AD HP item

doesn't list AP HP items

veigarbage can1 votes

{quoted}

lists AD HP item

doesn't list AP HP items

I agree Steraks doesn't need to be there, but the rest of it?

Maw = MR Merc Schim = MR Edge of Night = MR GA = Armor Death's Dance is a weird one where it stops burst so you have some breathing room.

So what items do we have for AD that are Armor/MR/Damage Reduction?

item 3156 item 3139 item 3814 item 3026 item 3812 item 3091 (Niche, but built by AD champs in that niche catagory)

What does AP have?

item 3157 (Not even worth the gold stats-wise, and the effect is really situational)

item 3102

AirKingNeo7 votes

Wit's End isn't an AD item. It reduces magic resist and deals magic damage, making it more AP based.

Edge of Night doesn't give MR. Death's Dance doesn't give damage reduction; only delay.

You're literally just not including HP items because you're a Texas Sharpshooter, just cherrypicking data to support only your argument. And again, you still are ignoring that not every AD champion can buy or have access to every defensive AD item.

veigarbage can1 votes

{quoted}

Wit's End isn't an AD item. It reduces magic resist and deals magic damage, making it more AP based.

Edge of Night doesn't give MR. Death's Dance doesn't give damage reduction; only delay.

You're literally just not including HP items because you're a Texas Sharpshooter, just cherrypicking data to support only your argument. And again, you still are ignoring that not every AD champion can buy or have access to every defensive AD item.

Excuse me about Edge of Night, it used to give MR, forgot that changed. That, I will agree with you on.

And I did specify that Wit's End isn't AD in particular, but that it's built by AD champs primarily.

You're also forgetting that, sure they don't have access to every defensive item, but they still have access to more than AP. Now, if you're really wanting me to include AP/HP items and AD/HP items, let me do that for you, as you're not giving any factual evidence yourself.

AD/Health items:

  • Trinity Force/Trinity Fusion
  • Black Cleaver/Obsidian Cleaver
  • Titanic Hydra
  • Frozen Mallet
  • Sterak's Gage

AP/Health items:

  • Morellonomicon
  • Liandry's Torment
  • Rylai's Crystal Scepter
  • RoA (Which takes time to really be gold-efficient)

With that being said, I will also add resistance/reduction-based items into that.

AD Resistance items:

  • Maw of Malmortius
  • Mercurial Scimitar
  • Guardian Angel
  • Death's Dance

This isn't even counting Edge of Night, which is basically an active Banshee's passive for AD assassins, or Wit's End, which is primarily built by AD champions.

Now, let's count the same for AP:

  • Banshee's Veil
  • Zhonya's Hourglass

And if we're not counting active resistances, then we aren't counting Seraph's Embrace either.

So let's count the AD/Health or AD/Armor or MR items here:

  • Trinity Force
  • Black Cleaver
  • Titanic Hydra
  • Frozen Mallet
  • Sterak's Gage
  • Maw of Malmortius
  • Mercurial Scimitar
  • Guardian Angel
  • Death's Dance

Let's count the AP/Health or AP/Armor or MR items now:

  • Morellos
  • Liandry's
  • Rylai's
  • RoA (Once again, takes time to be useful)
  • Banshee's
  • Zhonyas

And if you want to talk about accessibility: An incredible amount of the AP items I've listed are situational. The only one that isn't exactly situational is Banshee's. That makes 1 MR item. The only AP/Armor item is situational at best, with subpar stats and a long cooldown active, albeit good.

Now, to address the "texas sharpshooter" insult: You aren't doing the same? You completely forgot to mention both sides of the story, stating that AD items aren't accessible to all, but you forget that 3/4 of the AP defensive items are situational, and stuff like RoA and Liandry's are inaccessible to a lot of mages. If you're going to talk about logical fallacies, at least practice what you preach.

AirKingNeo1 votes

#And for the third fucking time I'll say it, not every AD champion has access to every AD defensive item. Bruisers cannot use Maw, Edge of Night, nor MercScem. ADCs cannot use Titanic, Mallet, Sterak's and typically don't build Trinity/Cleaver with small exceptions.

veigarbage can1 votes

{quoted}

#And for the third fucking time I'll say it, not every AD champion has access to every AD defensive item. Bruisers cannot use Maw, Edge of Night, nor MercScem. ADCs cannot use Titanic, Mallet, Sterak's and typically don't build Trinity/Cleaver with small exceptions.

Someone's upset.

You completely ignored 3/4 of my argument. If you're going to point out someone's being a "texas sharpshooter," at least practice what you preach.

Not all AP champs can build every defensive item, at least viably. Same with AD.

But the fact of the matter is, there are more AD Defensive choices than AP on all fronts. There's more fighter-focused AD defensive items, there's more assassin-focused AD defensive items, and there's more ADC-focused defensive items.

EDIT: And I forgot to list that Edge of Night has HP. So add that to the list.

The Dreamwalker5 votes

Sorry, I will drop in there real quick. I never said that all AD champions could build those items. I was saying that AD champions, in general, can build more defensive items than mages. Also, all of the items, except for one, are readily available to all AD champions.

ZephyrDrake8 votes

so HP now doesn't qualify as a defensive stat?

HP Crookshanks7 votes

Agreed. Not to mention you have to build item 3089 and item 3135 .

La Bello1 votes

Void definitely feels mandatory. Its just WAY too freaking good to pass up. Rabbadons isnt as mandatory but I still think its a gross item that demands to be balanced around.

Its not important enough to be mandatory BUT its important enough that Riot has to balance all AP ratios around it. Also Rabbadons is the main reason Mages get so good at killin towers. that 100~200 bonus AP goes directly into bigger tower right clicks not to mention item 3100 which complicates things even further and leads to stupid moments where Ziggs or Veigar lategame AA's your buildings ONCE and they die.

Vekkna3 votes

{quoted}

Void definitely feels mandatory. Its just WAY too freaking good to pass up.

You mean MR is way too freaking good for Void to be anything but mandatory.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

In the sense that armour in generally so powerful vs AD champs that they want to build Last Whisper, unless they have a lot of hybrid damage? Yes indeed, that's the point of Void and LW, they end up being mandatory at a certain point of the game unless you get absurdly ahead and close before that stage, or you can simply use them to shred a squishy even quicker if you really want to.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

MR stops AP burst damage a lot better than Armor does AD.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

I will concede this point, AD itemisation is too lenient when it comes to pen.

GodlyBane7 votes

mages are already strong enough, no need for more

sparpo6 votes

Respectfully, I disagree. Most of those AD items wont work for every ad champ. Like assasins wont buy item 3022. Those defensive items are mostly designed for bruisers and juggernauts. I would argue that AD carry marksmen have far less defensive items than mages. item 3157 item 3048 item 3027 item 3151 item 3165 for example, all have not bad defensive stats. Yes, there isnt much defensiveness there, but it can help a lot. There is almost no items that give health that ADC's can use. Plus marksmen NEED certain items for their build, in order to scale, with mages onthe other hand there is a certain variation in their itemisation.

Dingding1231 votes

inb4 an assassin buys Atma's plus Sterak's in the LCS so he can burst a squishy while in the middle of their team

FutureCreator1 votes

inb4 Atma's doesn't exist.

Dingding1231 votes

inb4 they don't even need it

Krully4 votes

If you're dead, they can't kill you.

La Bello4 votes

playing mages in 3v3 is actually kinda fun item 3090 item 3170 item 3001 is such a nice build. 100 of each resist and a nice chunk of tenacity and HP to boost.

FilDaFunk3 votes

Mages have lots of sources of HP, ads (the higher damage items) get more resistances.

Vekkna1 votes

You act like those hp items are doing anything other than catching up with the base hp of melee ADs that you need defense items to survive.

FilDaFunk4 votes

Range is also an advantage, don't forget the tradeoffs.

Vekkna3 votes

The number of melee mids without ranged skills is exactly zero.

DKM Bismarck2 votes

So? They still don't have ranged autos, or a fully ranged kit. Melee champs have to have more hp/armour/mr to survive lane phase. Imagine a Talon with mage resistances and base hp, he'd be fucking useless, he doesn't have enough range nor a strong enough engage (his Q can be cced out of to deny the stack). The same applies to most melee mids, they just wouldn't make it out of lane phase in tact because a Lux/Xerath/Ahri would just auto them twice then 1 rotation them over and over. They wouldn't be able to trade because even currently, they have to get into melee range to properly trade you, so unless they gib you... You get free autos as they back off, etc..

Also, they all have to melee minions, they have an auto animation, punish them during it. When you're both 0/0/0, no assassin can gib you pre-six if you play properly.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

You:

You wish Talon didn't have to use his full combo level 2 and proc bleed + use a summ to kill you? I mean, if you get out of position enough to die to him in lane, that's your fault. Just like not flashing any of that is also your fault.

Also you:

Also, they all have to melee minions, they have an auto animation, punish them during it. When you're both 0/0/0, no assassin can gib you pre-six if you play properly.

Also, lol to that statement.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

If you "play properly" means you can use your Ahri charm in approximately their direction, your champ in particular is fantastic at shutting a lot of these assassins down, with the exception of perhaps Fizz and a good Zed.

But, the boards will be the boards, keep thinking these assassins are op when there are other champions now taking their place. I don't disagree with some of the points made around here (Duskblade needs nerfing/reworking) but I don't get why people whine about dying to a full combo from an assassin, if they eat the entire thing that's their fault for positioning terribly. Honestly, it really is, and yes you need to worry about your early game positioning, too. That doesn't just go out of the window vs assassins or something.

Besteal2 votes

I think that to build defense, champions in general, both AD and AP should sacrifice damage and build a tank item. That's the point of defense, right? Getting both in one item is too good. I absolutely despise that AD has so many items that give both offense AND defense (not that half the champions use them in this glass cannon meta). Threads like these make me sympathize with AP players, sure, but it makes me roll my eyes too. You shouldn't be doing tons of damage, and be a nuisance to kill too. Especially since a bunch of mages have both damage and utility, giving them a ton of dual purpose items would probably break them, especially champs like Swain (also imagine how much damage Syndra can do, and then imagine her doing that while being super hard to kill). I mean, we can sometimes see this already with Veigar. Build archangel, abyssal and frozen heart, then continue with your normal build. The fact that defensive stats exist on offensive items is an abomination.

5050BS2 votes

More Def items that trigger on their own and I can still move (not slowed or anything), still can fight and does not cost me mana.

fyi item 3156 item 3053 =/= item 3157 item 3040

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