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Been Saying It, Still Saying It: Support Itemization SUCKS

chipndip1··36 votes·1,910 views

Not in terms of "strength", but in terms of fun and what makes League what it is, yes, support-oriented itemization is garbage. Hot garbage.

If I'm playing any position other than support, my itemization choices look like this:

  • Who am I? What do I scale with best?

  • What is the situation? Should I take a more careful, defensive approach to my build or should I race to end-game status, getting as offensively potent as possible earlier on?

If I'm SUPPORT, my itemization decisions look like this:

  • Build the biggest effect that gives the biggest benefit for your team.

This is inherently flawed logic. Where someone playing Ahri could say "That's a Veigar, so instead of risking getting clicked on in his ranges, I'ma put the Lich Bane build down and get an Abyssal Sceptor instead." or "That's a Zed, so I'ma put the Abyssal to the side and build a Zhonya's", a support says "I'm going to build Locket/Redemption because that's thousands upon thousands of hp sustain for my team." Doesn't matter if you're Blitz. Doesn't matter if you're Braum. Doesn't matter if you're Sona. Doesn't matter if you're Janna. EVERY SUPPORT BUILDS THESE ITEMS, and the worst part is that there's no reason not to. Nothing matches their potency when it counts, and Locket has a 90 second cd, meaning it's up for basically every team fight. There's no consideration of "My champion is X" because support itemization as a whole disregards this concept. Or rather, the items worth building do.

Like, I don't see why people are scratching their heads on support. Support needs people to actually care enough to fix the problems it has, is all, before we can make it a more fun role. The problems are not even that hard to find. These items are inherently broken in the role. We need these items replaced with itemization choices that better fit specific champ classes that find themselves in the role, as well as choices that adhere to specific types of situations, not catch-all answers that are always good, which is what Redemption and Locket are.

Side note: A shameless plug to my last thread on the role

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TVVuiRr0-the-problem-with-enchanters

42 Comments

Sire Hippington4 votes

Aditionally there are still wardstone and a gp/10 item, so locked+redemtion+those already consumes 4(3if you combine gp/10 and sightstone) slots, and we still don't have a pink slot, so another itemslot gone for controll wards, boots are still mandotory for everyone, so you baseically have 1 item that you actually can choose, provided you even get enough gold since most games finish befor you finish all those core items on support... Though what i personally find more annoying is that two of the more interesting items make you a pure slave for your adc(zeke's and knight's vow) and mostly that you no longer can properly controll vision. Back in the days when you had green wards and a more potent wardstone, you could actually provid alot vision, even after the 3 ward limitation you could atleast kinda move the line off vision on demand. Now you have to back 24/7 to refill your wards which is incredible annoying.

option paralysis4 votes

True, before I remember building athenes and even zhonyas sometimes on soraka... but now, every game is like, god damn I would just be hurting my team if I don't build redemption/locket.

chipndip13 votes

Like, looking at numbers alone, there's just no justification for why I'd build anything different.

WoonStruck4 votes

That's because support design in LoL is hot garbage.

Its hard to attach significant itemization that's not overpowered as fuck (Locket/Redemption, hello) to complete garbage design.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Hit the nail on the head.

chipndip14 votes

But lets rework tanks and divers instead.

Like, I get the tank rework, but why DIVERS over enchanters/wardens?

WoonStruck1 votes

Yeah, idk. This is Riot we're talking about.

PLANTS ARE COOL, RIGHT? YOU LIKE PLANTS, YES?

YOU LIKE ARBITRARY JUNGLE MECHANICS THAT PUNISH YOU FOR CLEARING FASTER THAN THE ENEMY JUNGLE?

Xx420n0sc0p3sxX2 votes

I like to look at Dota when looking at supports. In dota, supports are more impactful from a damage perspective because of dotas scaling. Most supports in lol are a heal/shield/cc bot. Most supports in league (thresh, janna, blitz, soraka) are like this, with the exception of the mid lane supports (brann, annie, etc). Supporting in league is so boring, in my opinion, because they are focused on supporting entirely, and dont do anything on their own (again, midlane supports dont do this). Naturally supports will just take these items because of that. Thats why i think midlane supports are cool and fun to play. They arent worthless by themselves.

Nickssaa1 votes

Also, the items that supports get are a lot more utility based like heals, roots, zhonyas but can be used on enemies, item that tries keep allies from dying, and tons of auras.

Incarceration3 votes

Make supports take more skill.

chipndip12 votes

That's more in the thread I linked. This is about itemization.

50000000000000002 votes

Do you mean more mechanical?

Incarceration2 votes

I don't really know. Thresh feels like a good example, but so is Taric. I just want something that takes more skill than Janna, Soraka, Malzahar*, Zyra*, etc.

Malzahar and Zyra belong in the mid lane. I would rather have them there than have them just head down bot, use two spells and half health an adc. That's just bullshit.

chipndip13 votes

If you guys are going to downvote, at least offer a comment as to why it's a thread to be downvoted. You know you can't, so you don't.

Limmie3 votes

EVERY thread gets a few random downvotes when they are created, even if they are neutral questions. Don't ask me why, it's just a fact.

chipndip12 votes

But more comments = more traffic. I don't just make threads to work out my fingers.

Sozan51 votes

Then you are in the wrong boards. xD

Anu3isII2 votes

I wish Supports actually had options between building stats. Do you want more Damage? Pick some AP. Better heals/shields? Forbidden Idol, the items that build from it, and particularly Athene's can help you. Too squishy? Knight's Vow, Ruby Sightstone, Frozen Heart and maybe some items that have a mix of defensive stats with the ones above.

What actually should I do if I want to be competitive? Either go a Mage "Support" and literally go full AP, or pick a casual Support and build Redemption, Locket, Mikael's Crucible, and maybe even pick Ruby Sightstone to lower the Cooldowns of the Actives... Counting Boots and the Gold Generation item (which I will probably upgrade for active), I already have a full build...

I still play for fun as a Support, but, everytime I buy a different item (Athene's, Ardent Censor, Zeke's etc), I question myself if I shouldn't have actually bought one of these "must-have" items...

EvanThomas1 votes

Yeah, for most supports they can't afford anything but the meta builds. If you're looking for a champion with this kind of flexibility, here you go. Zilean This guy works with any build as long as you fulfill 2 things:

  1. You have mana or mana sustain.
  2. You have 45% CDR at full build.

This makes him so flexible, it's ridiculous. You can build AP or support items on him, and it's very dependent on the situation (even if locket and redemption are really good right now).

I remember tank Karma was a thing for 2 weeks or so a while back, and she has a lot of utility in her kit, like Zilean, so maybe she can do the same thing itemwise?

Nameless Voice2 votes

Those two items water down the entire support role and make the individual champions more generic.

It doesn't matter if you pick an enchanter, a tank, a peeler, or a mage - they all have access to the same support powers.

You don't need to pick Karma for AoE shields because everyone can buy Locket. You don't need to pick Sona for multi-person healing because everyone can buy Locket for a large AoE heal.

You don't even need to pick a champion with healing or shielding to get those for your team.

Itemisation for other classes augments the powers that the champions already have in their kits. AP items help mages make their spells more powerful, for example. The two items mentioned simply add a completely different power to a champion, regardless of their kit.

... and don't get me started on the ridiculous half-map ranged of Redemption.

chipndip11 votes

Basically my opinion on the matter to a tee. The items become more important than who you're even using.

LordOfTheLeague2 votes

It seems defensive power (or whatever the name) should be a stat (compared to AP and AD).

We should have pure defensive power items with or without defensive actives and even hybrids.

tanks + defensive power. Ap + defensive power. Maybe Ad + defensive power.

This way others classes couldn't break those items unless they are at least hybrid with defensive power.

And it would be satisfying to build it.

chipndip11 votes

This is more an issue with these two actives. Also, we're going to make a whole new stat just for enchanters? Really?

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

Well some mage have shields, some tanks have shields, etc. (I mean shield that you can that you can use on allies)

It can be for a lot of champions.

chipndip11 votes

Then you'd have to:

  • Retool a ton of items.

  • Make a ton of new items.

  • Rebalance the entire roster around this new stat.

This is just not going to happen.

tacofacefart1 votes

Just build triforce instead

Oleandervine1 votes

I don't build Redemption on every support I play, and people actually complain about the lack of it. It's irritating because sometimes I don't want to build the damn thing and I actually want to accent my kit, not use cookie cutter OP OP items just because.

chipndip11 votes

Honestly, I'd complain too, even though it is more fun to play into your kit.

It sucks, but until we're more honest about the state of support as a role, every support that isn't a mage one is going to be expected to be a Locket Pocket. If you aren't and the other guy is, you're probably going to lose.

Nymzo1 votes

Yes and no, yes support itemization sucks a little bit but I don't build fucking Redemption and Locket every single game.

Like, if my adc is super fed and I'm an enchanter, why the fuck would I build Redemption over Censer?

Or they are a full ad team and I'm a tank support, why the fuck would I build Redemption instead of stacking armor?

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=TheFrench Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehJAt4io,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-03-03T15:44:02.370+0000)

Yes and no, yes support itemization sucks a little bit but I don't build fucking Redemption and Locket every single game.

Like, if my adc is super fed and I'm an enchanter, why the fuck would I build Redemption over Censer?

Because your whole team could use the extra hundreds of health over a little attack speed and a little healing on AAs for 1 person.

Or they are a full ad team and I'm a tank support, why the fuck would I build Redemption instead of stacking armor?

Because your whole team could use the extra hundreds of health over you getting not tanky enough to endure that damage anyway + it stacks its 10% passive with Locket, making Locket have a shield for over 700 hp before degrading.

Nymzo1 votes

{quoted}

Because your whole team could use the extra hundreds of health over a little attack speed and a little healing on AAs for 1 person.

When their adc is so behind and our adc is the biggest threat, I doubt all of my team will be too injured. Also you act like I can't use my spells to heal my teammates.

You also forgot that more than half of the enchanters can give the censer buff to everyone in your team.

Because your whole team could use the extra hundreds of health over you getting not tanky enough to endure that damage anyway + it stacks its 10% passive with Locket, making Locket have a shield for over 700 hp before degrading.

Alistar + Ult + Ton of armors = Not tanky enough? In the late game maybe, not in the mid game that's for sure. Even Braum or Kench are tanky enough.

Also the mr that you get is useless unless they have an ap mage support at bot lane.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=TheFrench Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehJAt4io,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-03-03T17:29:59.453+0000)

When their adc is so behind and our adc is the biggest threat, I doubt all of my team will be too injured. Also you act like I can't use my spells to heal my teammates.

It's called "weighing your options". Would I want to be the guy that played smart and got these op items, or would I want to be the guy that didn't, let my opponent do so, and then allowed them to come back because they picked up a few stray kills they would have otherwise not gotten if I had all that bonus healing?

You also forgot that more than half of the enchanters can give the censer buff to everyone in your team.

Sona/Karma if we're talking about decent cds.

That's literally it, unless you want to blow Janna/Soraka ult for it like that's smart.

Alistar + Ult + Ton of armors = Not tanky enough? In the late game maybe, not in the mid game that's for sure. Even Braum or Kench are tanky enough.

Alistar is OBVIOUSLY a special case, and the only example that works here, given his ult is just a fuck ton of temporary damage reduction. When that runs out, he still goes down like a fly in comparison to a solo lane tank.

Also the mr that you get is useless unless they have an ap mage support at bot lane.

The shield is better than anything you could bring as a support come late game, save your ult (and in some cases, even that), and we both know this.

Like, I get it: You WANT there to be some meaningful choices in itemization because, honestly, it's fun. I get the same feeling when I slip in Censor before Redemption in my ranked games. However, even your own match history is against you. There's a multiple games in your last 20 games where, in cases you lost, you may have not done too poorly, but you full-built something random like Randuin's while the enemy had either Locket, Redemption, or both. In games where you either built them or the enemy opted not to, a good deal of those you won. My point is that if the game's relatively even, the support with better use of these two items gets the highest odds to win the team fight, no questions asked, because of their sheer potency. Just look at the numbers. What's more important between a potentially 2.1k team-wide shield at level 11 before heal/shield multipliers...or 500 HP/60 Armor and a "if you focus me" passive on a champ that people will blatantly ignore? And that's just level 11, rather than the 665 at level 18 per champ, before heal/shield multipliers.

Nymzo1 votes

{quoted}

It's called "weighing your options". Would I want to be the guy that played smart and got these op items, or would I want to be the guy that didn't, let my opponent do so, and then allowed them to come back because they picked up a few stray kills they would have otherwise not gotten if I had all that bonus healing?

I only build Redemption on Lulu because her kit is an anti burst kit so she synergizes well with Redemp/Locket or if I'm very behind since Redemption is really cheap.

The thing is about Locket is because so many midlaners, top laners and ap supports have aoe these days so Locket is very good along with its cheap price.

Sona/Karma if we're talking about decent cds.

That's literally it, unless you want to blow Janna/Soraka ult for it like that's smart.

Soraka affects everyone on the map so why not but to be fair, I only build it if my carries end up being fed somehow otherwise yea Redemption

Janna is more situational but Censer is great with her shield and her ult may affects 2 or 3 peoples.

Alistar is OBVIOUSLY a special case, and the only example that works here, given his ult is just a fuck ton of temporary damage reduction. When that runs out, he still goes down like a fly in comparison to a solo lane tank.

That ult doesn't have that much cd, I can almost use it in every teamfight.

The shield is better than anything you could bring as a support come late game, save your ult (and in some cases, even that), and we both know this.

I mean... why the hell would I let them do something in the first place? Alistar's kit is not like Lulu's, Alistar's job to stop them and disrupt them from doing too much damage. Lulu's job is to bait them, to make them think they can kill a target and throw everything at the said target at the perfect moment which is why again the 2 items are great on Lulu.

Like, I get it: You WANT there to be some meaningful choices in itemization because, honestly, it's fun. I get the same feeling when I slip in Censor before Redemption in my ranked games. However, even your own match history is against you. There's a multiple games in your last 20 games where, in cases you lost, you may have not done too poorly, but you full-built something random like Randuin's while the enemy had either Locket, Redemption, or both. In games where you either built them or the enemy opted not to, a good deal of those you won. My point is that if the game's relatively even, the support with better use of these two items gets the highest odds to win the team fight, no questions asked, because of their sheer potency. Just look at the numbers. What's more important between a potentially 2.1k team-wide shield at level 11 before heal/shield multipliers...or 500 HP/60 Armor and a "if you focus me" passive on a champ that people will blatantly ignore? And that's just level 11, rather than the 665 at level 18 per champ, before heal/shield multipliers.

I just checked my match history and there's only 2 games when I builded Randuin.

The first one when I was Thresh when our team had no fucking tank (bless Jayce top) so I decided to build tank but I didn't had time to finish Locket because we were so far behind compare to them.

The second game was when I was Sion support when our Lucian rage quitted after dashing in and ulting just before getting hooked and killed by the enemy bot lane. So I decided to build tank to see if we could 4 vs 5 but we couldn't.

Even if I had the ''holy doubly'' items, I would've lost anyway.

Also you should probably have checked the game when I played Nami, I guarentee Censer made a difference for Draven.

Profirix1 votes

Very well said. It also highlights why items like Knight's Vow are consistently being changed because they are rarely used. It isn't because they are bad items. It is because they can't compete with the sheer tactical power of items like Locket and Redemption.

Don't get me wrong; Locket and Redemption are necessary in their current state for team play (nerfing them would just make them disappear), but support item choices really don't make as much of a difference.

chipndip11 votes

When I read they were tackling Locket in the preseason, I THOUGHT they were going to remove Locket and replace it with more "compartmentalized" options. Instead they removed the aura and buffed the hell out of the shield while giving it armor, making it more of a generalist item and less specified against mages, on the grounds of "We think Locket is too 'necessary' in the role and we need to allow for more itemization variety in the support role." I just don't understand...

Puttyblo1 votes

I'll be honest. I personally think supports have the most diverse item choices over any other role.

I also don't really ever buy redemption except on special cases.

My Soraka also has an 80% winrate, and I use my lethality + attack speed page.

I don't think the items are as much of an issue as is exhaust + ADC itemization being an issue. The fact exhaust is so powerful and all adcs are basically over glorified lethality casters makes it "appear" that your item choices are shit, when in reality most supports just don't want to leave bot lane. Ever. So, they just buy cookie cutter items and jerk around complaining how useless their items are for their adc when there's 3 other roles in the game you can support :|.

item 3800 item 3504 item 3512 item 3050 item 3065 item 3025 item 3110 item 3056

I actually do use all of these as support.

chipndip11 votes

No offense, but don't talk about builds you use or win rates with them when you're on a forum-only account.

Puttyblo1 votes

{quoted}

No offense, but don't talk about builds you use or win rates with them when you're on a forum-only account.

You're looking for excuses beyond yourself. It's quite cute.

If you want to win more games as Sona stop buying the second piece of your gold item on your 5 minute back and instead put it into a ruby crystal, or even if you're feeling risky hold onto gold for an early forbidden idol.

You're actually losing a lot of games just from buying inefficiently despite all this gloating about efficiency. Quite silly.

Also, Ardent Censers will snowball your games faster with the right comp and is pretty much more efficient than any of the other two items you listed as a second/3rd item since it's 126-135% efficient with just one person getting the buff, and 169% at max value on one person. Also, 20 health on hit is stupidly stupidly stupidly powerful in earlier levels considering vampiric scepter doesn't even give that much health early on. And you can proc several people with it as Sona.

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows] What would I know though, I'm just a loser diamond former support main.

chipndip14 votes

From someone that's posting on a forum-only account, this is actually something I'm going to calmly ignore. Not because you may be wrong or right, but because it's cowardly taking shots while you're hiding your own arse from behind a data-less account.

Mcloved1 votes

would be awesome if the brought back gp5 items and the ability to rain down wards for days

sobi9991 votes

Supports lack the amount of AP available to them. Since these items item 3089 item 3165 item 3285 are neither cost-effective nor useful on supp's. SO far item 3504 is by far my favorite support item.

FakeGravity1 votes

hey is improving, i dont miss the day when all i was able to buy was shard of true ice and shurelian plus a pile of wards

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