Why isn't there ANY ap champion buffs on PBE ?

0 Hogapu··86 votes·4,622 views
Surrender at 20

Almost every ad caster is getting a small buff, something like +5 damage on spells. Even Tristana and Varus are getting a small buff.

The ONLY ap champion buff is Brand, getting more mana when killing ablazed units - buff that has been announced 2 patches ago, and which has nothing to do with new season patch.

Let's not forget that mages will not only lose AP with the rune changes, they will also lose magic pen. There will now only exist 2 flat magic pen mage items : item 3020 and item 3136. AD usually don't get lethality in runes, while ap used to get something like 7 magic pen.

** This is a HUGE loss for AP classes.**

(oh , and the mastery acting like a hexdrinker was definitely what ap champions needed)

Edit : Ap changes are likely to come (though I don't see the point of separating the arrival of all these changes) MR will be reduced for everyone, and armor will be increased for everyone, making the situation kind of better (thanks MagÊ)

110 Comments

GrievousFetus19 votes

The loss of Mpen is balanced by the loss of MR runes.

0 Hogapu25 votes

So, that is another buff to AD, right ? They did not need to have lethality runes to perform well, and now armour runes get removed.

Best princess EU44 votes

ARMOR IS BEING BUFFED everyone is getting +4 armor

MR IS BEING NERFED everyone is getting -4 mr

there is no way this is not a buff to mages, they will deal more damage and take less damage from assassins

0 Hogapu9 votes

Where have you seen this ? Surrender@t20 doesn't talk about this... But in that case that would seem fair overall.

Best princess EU4 votes

dev corner about runes

mr is being reduced for the lose of mr pen runes armor is being buffed for the lose of armor runes

mr glyphes were less taken than ap,cdr,cdr/lvl runes

Vekkna5 votes

So you lose 9-14 flat pen from marks + Precision, and the enemy loses 4 MR. You say yourself that MR glyphs were less taken than other glyphs, so you can't just assume that the enemy is -16 MR.

{quoted}

there is no way this is not a buff to mages, they will deal more damage and take less damage from assassins

Enemy used to start between net -9 to +3 MR in standard matchup. Now the enemy is always -4, which is 5 higher than -9.

So if the enemy's net MR is going up by 5, where's this huge fucking buff?

And then there are scaling issues because a mage's pen scales with their void staff, and the reverse is true when you remove the pen and lower enemy MR. But I don't expect you to understand that if you think mages deal more damage against enemies with 5 more MR.

flibitydoo16 votes

you don't even need to see it, just think.

standard runepage for everyone is getting mag res, that's going away so now it's -12 to everyone's MR. by comparison, every mage runs mag pen marks, that's going away so now it's +8 to everyone's MR.

aka looking at runes alone, everyone just lost about 4 MR.

no idea about what the deal with armour is, it looks like everyone justs loses 9 armour from seals, but I'd assume they're somewhat buffing armour since armour is kinda necessary if you want to jungle on most champs.

LightIsMyPath3 votes

1 point of magic penetration doesn't equal -1 MR for the enemies.

AirKingNeo7 votes

Yes it does.

PB4UAME2 votes

Only maybe in a 1 vs 1-- provided that they had no runes/abilities/items that scale/scale off of resists.

AirKingNeo2 votes

The literally definition of magic and armor pen is each point negates 1 mr/armor.

PB4UAME2 votes

No, it is not. It only negates them for the purposes of the damage calculation of the attacker with the pen, and literally no where else.

Malphite would still get an extra .3 armor off that 1 armor that isn't taken away by armor pen, with the defensive mastery alone, every tank would still have .05 left of each resist lost this way, and if they have fearless they'd get an additional bonus from having the resistances as well.

Then, and abilities that they have that scale off resists, like, oh, Leona W, Jax R, Braum W, Malhpite W, and E, Galio Passive, W, and R, Garen W, Poppy W, Rammus W, Sej Passive, Taric has armor scaling on three abilities as well, and there is also shit like Trundle R, and items like Iceborn Gauntlet, Thronmail.

So, wanna try again?

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, it is not. It only negates them for the purposes of the damage calculation of the attacker with the pen, and literally no where else.

That's literally what I meant.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

even when you factor in item 3135 ?

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, because we're talking about flat magic pen.

Vekkna4 votes

A champ starts with 0-12 MR in runes. A champ starts with 0-21.5 mpen in runes + masteries. The net MR range is -21.5 to +12 at level 1, and -26.5 to +27 at level 18.

Please explain with math how the loss of mpen and MR are self-balancing when there is a 53.5 point gap between the outliers?

0 Hogapu2 votes

Well, you barely never take full MR runes, just like you barely never take full mag.pen runes. As you said, the common amount of MR is between 0 and 12, while mag.pen is almost always 7,8. So at the end, your mag.pen runes are easily counterable by MR, and there are not enough mag.pen items to effectively counter this, while lethality is abundant. (Potential gap does not mean anything at all in reality)

Vekkna5 votes

Lots of people start 12 flat MR or 27 scaling MR. That's typical and doesn't require "full MR runes."

The problem is that the value of the starting mpen increases throughout the game because of the way flat pen is applied after % pen from void staff. Lowering MR across the board by 5-10 does not account for that because void staff would have shredded a portion of that MR.

For example, let's assume a level 12 mage has 7.8 pen from marks, 4.5 from Precision, 15 from Sorcs and 35% from Void for a total of 27 +35% mpen. Enemy has 35 base MR plus 12 from glyphs and 30 from Hex for a total of 77 MR. Your target takes 19% reduced damage.

Now let's assume the same after the patch. Your mage only has 15 pen from Sorcs and 35% from void. The enemy has 28 base MR and 30 from Hex for a total of 58 MR. Your target takes 19% reduced damage. Balance is achieved!

But wait...what if the mage is Brand and the enemy is a Zed who skips MR glyphs because he knows he will rush Hex anyway? Brand would have 33 + 35% pen and Zed would have 65 MR. Zed takes 8% reduced damage. After the patch, Brand only has 15 + 35% pen, and Zed has 58 MR. Zed takes 18% reduced damage.

So even if you nerf MR across the board by 8 to account for pen marks, Brand gets fucked. Not only does he lose his starting pen, but 35% of the MR that was shaved off Zed in the stat rebalance would have been shredded by Void Staff anyway.

0 Hogapu2 votes

(Thanks again for such detailed replies) So to sum up, we do not have enough flat magic pen items to counter little amount of mr, where Void Staff is not efficient... we need another magic pen item I guess

Vekkna5 votes

No, void staff is crazy efficient. My point is that flat pen and % pen are self-scaling. Losing the flat pen from runes and masteries makes the remaining pen on items less powerful.

You can break even on damage at certain points in the game by reducing base MR, but you lose the scaling damage you would have gotten from more pen.

The same principle applies to Lethality and armor.

Ardent Cancor2 votes

Just pointing out a mathematical error. In the first example your target has 35 base MR + 12 from runes and 30 from hex. You combined the total magic pens and 35% pen.

In the second example the base MR dropped to 28 base. Why? If only the runes and masteries are taken away, the enemy should only have 12 MR taken away. Keep in mind this is before the pen is added in.

To fix your error it should be 35 base MR + 30 from hex, so 65 MR. Now using the same items as the first example, multiply by .65 and subtract 15 and you are left with 27.25 MR or which is 21.567% damage reduction, or around a 3% nerf to magic damage.

Seekor3 votes

AP will deal more damage due to lack of MR the math = 2+2=4

Vekkna2 votes

So I start with 21 pen at level 1 right now, so the enemy will have 17 more MR after the patch than on live.

Lack of MR?

Sukishoo12 votes

They will get there. Give it time.

ModWulf Helhammer7 votes

The Brand buffs are a return of the changes they were testing last patch, and if everything goes well, will likely hit live in a few weeks.

The +5/10 increases on spells are part of the runes changes, and those are going to be on the PBE till November. They can't just dump everything at once.

DrCyanide6 votes

There are buffs/changes for every champion due to the rune transition, but just like the Marksmen weren't put up on the 26th the Mages aren't up yet.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I am not sure what's the point of separating the arrival of these changes, but okey.. Did not notice that, thanks

Warlord Scrap2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efOuOWdv,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T16:32:26.371+0000)

I am not sure what's the point of separating the arrival of these changes, but okey.. Did not notice that, thanks

the more things they change at once the harder it is to see what single thing needs to be adjusted. Also there starting tested over a month in advance to actually test it. And preseason is probably still gonna have some horrible balancing

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Because while you can just dump all the changes at once, it's much easier to manage and log when you do it in steps.

zecastar4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efOuOWdv,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-29T16:22:56.158+0000)

Almost every ad caster is getting a small buff, something like +5 damage on spells. Even Tristana and Varus are getting a small buff.

The ONLY ap champion buff is Brand, getting more mana when killing ablazed units - buff that has been announced 2 patches ago, and which has nothing to do with new season patch.

Let's not forget that mages will not only lose AP with the rune changes, they will also lose magic pen. There will now only exist 2 flat magic pen mage items : item 3020 and item 3136. AD usually don't get lethality in runes, while ap used to get something like 7 magic pen.

** This is a HUGE loss for AP classes.**

(oh , and the mastery acting like a hexdrinker was definitely what ap champions needed)

Edit : Ap changes are likely to come (though I don't see the point of separating the arrival of all these changes) MR will be reduced for everyone, and armor will be increased for everyone, making the situation kind of better (thanks MagÊ)

Riot's mad your grammar is so incredibly bad that you don't comprehend plural vs singular. Downvote because you think basic language logic (not even nitpicking) shouldn't be criticized and we should all just communicate with monkey sounds. "Why aren't there ANY ap champion buffs on PBE ?" They probably didn't get around to it.

0 Hogapu7 votes

English is not my 1st language, I indeed do mistakes. But I am not sure to what extent this changes my statement. You can downvote me for my grammar if you wish to, but I thought I was here to talk about gameplay, and not about my english (which is not that bad, as you still managed to understand me).

zecastar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efOuOWdv,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-09-29T18:49:52.673+0000)

English is not my 1st language, I indeed do mistakes. But I am not sure to what extent this changes my statement. You can downvote me for my grammar if you wish to, but I thought I was here to talk about gameplay, and not about my english (which is not that bad, as you still managed to understand me).

I wouldn't downvote you based on grammar. If it's not your first language, that's fine anyway.

0 Hogapu1 votes

You said you just downvoted me for using isn't instead of aren't... xD Hearing I have done mistakes is OK for me, but honestly I don't think my grammar is that bad ... It was unlucky to make a mistake in title though, that's sad I am not allowed to change the title (I would have changed it if I could)

zecastar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katárina Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efOuOWdv,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T16:51:49.184+0000)

You said you just downvoted me for using isn't instead of aren't... xD Hearing I have done mistakes is OK for me, but honestly I don't think my grammar is that bad ... It was unlucky to make a mistake in title though, that's sad I am not allowed to change the title (I would have changed it if I could)

That's not what I said. I was referring to the inevitable downvotes that my own post would get. I didn't downvote your post.

Downvote because you think basic language logic (not even nitpicking) shouldn't be criticized and we should all just communicate with monkey sounds.

There are plenty of native English speakers who absolutely hate any kind of correction no matter how awful their grammar is. They'll say "There is five cars in the parking lot!". If you say that it should be "are", they'll make up random nonsensical insults like "Grammar Nazi" (because you're a Nazi if you care about basic language structure) etc. Since people get used to speaking in a certain way, they repeat the same mistakes often. Instead of making an effort, they'd rather be immature and lash out.

BTW: I wasn't born in the US either.

0 Hogapu1 votes

I get the idea behind it, but... we are on a universal forum, that include several regions, and thus different countries. We can't all have an excellent english level like you do..

Blue Moon Wolf4 votes

MonkeyKing still waiting for a buff of any kind

0 Hogapu14 votes

Meanwhile Panth gets +10 dmg on his Q at every level LUL

TheImpLord3 votes

you dont get whats happening. the stats from new runes are added to base ad so people with bonus ad ratios are being buffed cause base ad doesnt affect them like old runes do its also why stereks is now unique uninstalling and mele only in it base ad buff as base ad has gone up with new runes . panth has big ad ratio of 1.4 on his qand 300 on his e so he gets buffs to base ad , not even enough to make up the difference he lost with rune changes, wukongs will likely get buffs on his e and r but not his q cause raitos. there hae been buffs for the past few days straight and no sign of slowing.

this is also why no ap champs are buffed cause their is no difference between base and bonus ap cause base ap doesn't exist. so nothing changed.

0 Hogapu2 votes

Okey, so if Pantheon damage are going to be lowered with the removal of new runes, Wukong's are likely to go down as well... and he still does not have any buff compensation, while having AD ratios on his spells.

(I let you read what has been said for AP champs across the thread^^)

Son Foku3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=efOuOWdv,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-09-29T19:21:07.968+0000)

MonkeyKing still waiting for a buff of any kind

This! Why have they forgotten the monkey king AGAIN? Rito why do you hate my monkey so much!?

Grizzlpaw2 votes

Volibear will gladly swap places with Wukong. At least monkey is still playable.

Blue Moon Wolf

Voli also has more CC, AOE, a passive healing mechanic and a bite ability that does more damage the less health then enemy has, also scaling with his bonus health. Throw in the fact that Volibear is a champ who's difficulty curve is higher and far more versatile mechanically then Wukong and I'm not seeing how he's in a much worse place to be honest. like, Amumu is Viable, but only cause his Ult is so strong. Same reason Wukong is viable at all. Doesn't mean they are in a better boat then Voli considering the only reason they see play is cause they work as an Ult bot. hell, Voli still wrecks at many levels of play from what I've seen.

Grizzlpaw2 votes

I mean, if you list all of his positives without listing any of his downsides it'll certainly seem that way.

I could write a wall of text about the meany reasons why the things you listed are either false or simply not good enough to make him relevant in this meta, but instead i'll just boil it down to this small piece of advice that litearlly any champion can take.

Buy armor and kite him.

What is he going to do? Bite is almost all of his damage. Unlike Monkey, he doesn't scale well with pen items or pen runes. Do this and you should have no problem dealing with a Voli.

big boi edri2 votes

Yeah I gotta agree here, Voli has some perks Wu doesn't, but he blows.

At least Wu has a good ult and can utilize Duskblade, his only saving grace atm.

Vekkna3 votes

It is a huge loss for AP champs, and the changes aren't on PBE yet because APs are going to need a lot more individual work. Possible reasons:

  1. APs almost universally run pen runes and masteries, but most ADs start AD instead of lethality.

  2. Pen is a variable-scaling stat, not a fixed-scaling stat like AD or AP. For example, let's look at a few mpen values vs a variety of targets:

Standard mage runes/masteries at max pen

Enemy damage reduction with 44 + 35% mpen vs. enemy MR:

10 MR: 0% 20 MR: 0% 30 MR: 0% 40 MR: 0% 60 MR: 0% 80 MR: 7% 90 MR: 13% 100 MR: 17% 150 MR: 35% 200 MR: 46%

Full pen mage runes/masteries/items at maximum pen

Enemy damage reduction with 56 + 35% mpen vs. enemy MR:

10 MR: 0% 20 MR: 0% 30 MR: 0% 40 MR: 0% 60 MR: 0% 80 MR: 0% 90 MR: 2% 100 MR: 8% 150 MR: 29% 200 MR: 43%

All mages post-patch at maximum pen

Enemy damage reduction with 30 + 35% mpen vs. enemy MR:

10 MR: 0% 20 MR: 0% 30 MR: 0% 40 MR: 0% 60 MR: 8% 80 MR: 18% 90 MR: 22% 100 MR: 26% 150 MR: 40% 200 MR: 50%

Damage loss to standard mages

10 MR: 0% 20 MR: 0% 30 MR: 0% 40 MR: 0% 60 MR: -8% 80 MR: -11% 90 MR: -11% 100 MR: -6% 150 MR: -5% 200 MR: -4%

Damage loss to full pen mages

10 MR: 0% 20 MR: 0% 30 MR: 0% 40 MR: 0% 60 MR: -8% 80 MR: -18% 90 MR: -20% 100 MR: -18% 150 MR: -11% 200 MR: -7%

The takeaway here is that the value of starting pen is extremely difficult to quantify because it varies based on the enemy target's MR, your starting pen, and flat and % pen from items. A standard mage is losing 8 pen from Marks and 1.5 + .25/lvl pen from Precision. That's 12 pen at level 10 or 14 pen at level 18.

But look at the difference 12 pen makes between the standard mage (8 pen in Marks) and the full pen mage (20 pen in Marks, Glyphs, and Quints). That 12 pen has exactly zero value against targets with 0-68 MR. Against a target with 86 MR, it's worth 11% damage. The absolute maximum value of 12 mpen is 15.6% damage.

So how the crap is Riot going to use fixed stats and ratios to make up for the loss of mpen that's worth anywhere from nothing to nearly 16% total damage? And how will champ buffs make up for the loss of mpen scaling from non-scaling or low-scaling damage sources like Liandry's, Spellthief, keystones, on-hit effects, and item actives?

In other words, it's a much harder problem to solve than for ADs, though they will almost certainly have to do a second pass on lethality-stackers.

0 Hogapu2 votes

Did not expect such a detailed reply, thanks! The game should be more balanced if ap had another +15 flat magpen, just like the old item 3001 kind of did. That way riot wouldn't have to go through such high calculations, I guess :D

Vekkna5 votes

They can't just add a 15 flat pen item because it would create oppressive power spikes when rushing all the flat pen, then again after Void.

I think they could solve the problem by adding an item that stacks pen with time (like ROA stacks) or grants flat pen as a % of AP up to a cap (like 2% of AP up to 500). Or even a more niche item that grants high pen rating to damage over time effects only, or starts with high pen and loses pen as your AP increases.

That would solve the problem of power spikes on assassins/burst mages while still propping up the high-pen/low-AP scaling of champs like Brand and Zyra.

RocketRelm1 votes

I'm conflicted, because I actually really like this kind of scaling pen item, but I recognize that the reality is most mages generally won't get 500 AP at any point in a game unless they're at full build.

0 Hogapu1 votes

Someone said that there is a rune that can give up to 100AP at level 18! Which makes it easier to reach high AP amounts. Btw Vekkna, I used to play Katarina full magic pen (before rework) I had item 3020 item 3136 item 3135 item 3001 and about 15 flat magic pen in runes .. Against squichies (who had around 50 mr), I was dealing them true damage to them. This has never been a real issue though..

RocketRelm1 votes

I've looked at that rune, and you're almost 100% not going to take it in a real game. You might, but it's not giving over 100 AP until literally 50 minutes into the game. It offers almost no substantial benefit at all until 20 minutes in, honestly.

Gathering Storm Every 10 minutes gain AP or AD (Adaptive). 10 min: + 8 AP or 6 AD 20 min: + 24 AP or 18 AD 30 min: + 48 AP or 36 AD 40 min: + 80AP or 60 AD 50 min: + 120 AP or 90 AD 60 min: + 168 AP or 126 AD Etc…

(here's the set of runes as they are currently, btw https://docs.google.com/document/d/17l9iGZS9tk7r4H2JsB_ya1qIcE_RskT5-hcYSave2g0/edit , if you want to look)

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