Karma changes on the PBE are a HP/lvl buff, and a base HP buff, just like Syndra, Ahri, etc, basically every mage (but Brand and Zyra for some reasons)
That means Riot sees Karma as a mage, and not as a support! Cheer up guys, I feel new Karma gameplay changes are coming, and are going to put her to midlane ! (Which at least I prefer than a supportive Karma)
Ahri Body Pillow20 votesI fucking swear to christ if they shove Zyra into the bot lane any harder I am going to flip my shit.
Thryale3 voteshonestly I think zyra suffers from the same problem morg suffers from. Both are technically mid lane mages, but have kits that are just sooooo supportive, it's hard to balance them for the solo lane without them becoming insane as a support. So they become balanced as a support instead
Votable Jester7 votesincrease scalings, decrease base damage I don't see how that doesn't at the very least work towards solving that problem.
Really though they just kinda messed her up for mid when they did the MYMU. She can't hit the full minion wave with a Q anymore unless she's way too far forward.
Thryale2 votesas someone with plenty of malz experience, it's not that hard to angle yer shot to hit the whole wave
Votable Jester2 votesMalz has his passive as a safety net, Zyra only has her E pre-6. Sure it is by no means impossible, or even difficult, to hit the whole wave, but you do have to put yourself in a relatively vulnerable position while also putting an important spell on cooldown.
BobaFlautist14 votesUltimate hat is going to be insane on her.
0 Hogapu2 votesBut I am not sure if having her ultimate more oftenly will make her more of a mage (ie if she will use her RQ more frequently rather than RE)
Mawootad5 votesIt might make her more of a tank.
0 Hogapu2 votesThis also is possible... but this build is not that strong (while being fun af lol)
DarkRitual7 votesI love RW to troll people who think they can towerdive Karma 1v1.
BobaFlautist3 votesRQ reduces the next R cooldown. If you can land a 5-man RQ (which I know you rarely can) at the max reduction, you'll have r back up immediately, so RQRW becomes possible.
I can't say for sure that it'll make her for sure a mage, but I can't imagine that mage Karma will be particularly hurt by having her strongest nuke get a massive buff in uptime.
And even RE scales pretty well with AP - you can boost it by a max of 60% if you get all Shield/Heal power items and the keystone, but you can boost it by the same amount with only 210 AP. If you combine 10-20% shield/heal and 400+ AP, however...that starts to get ridiculous.
My guess would be that Karma mid is a mage support, who mostly uses her burst to zone squishies rather than kill them, but still has kill pressure on the careless - 
gets you 160 AP, 45% CDR, and 10% shield/heal - seems like a pretty powerful core even on a midlaner, and it's cheap enough to come out fast.
IxtaliKing8 votesGood, now all Riot has to do is give back her shield bomb and we're good.
Kynin6 votesGathering Fire (Passive) cooldown reducing effect changed from 2/2.5/3 (1/1.25/1.5 for basic attacks) to 2/3/4 (1/1.5/2 for basic attacks)
Also that buff. Meddler said in a gameplay post a while back that they are looking into a rework of Karma early next year and this is to tide her over until then.
0 Hogapu1 votesWhere did you see that change ? Is thaton PBE atm?
Did he precise the direction of the change ? Support or midlane oriented ?
_edit : noticed I just asked you 4 questions in a row lol _
Kynin2 votesThe change is on the PBE. IT is on the PBE at this time.
I will find where Meddler mentioned it and get back to you
Kynin2 votes"Likely just basic power, given we're so close to pre-season and most of our time has to go there. Larger work to fix some of her issues will be a later thing." in reply to "Are you just doing generic buffs for Karma or are you trying to address any issues with the changes you're going for?"
"Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year.
I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?" in reply to:
"Hey Meddler, a few questions regarding Karma:
Are you only planning number buffs at this point?
If so, are they just bandaid buffs until you are able to work on her properly early next year like you said before?
Lastly, if you are going through with larger work on Karma next year, how do you feel about some of her older mechanics being updated and brought back to her? The Karma community are seeking reconciliation between the 2 player bases created by her rework."
0 Hogapu2 votesYay I like this a lot. Thanks for the reply! May mage Karma mid become a great thing in a near future. :)
Voluug135 votesGod I hope. Karma has been nothing but a balance headache as anything but a mage, and I hope they acknowledge that at last and move on with Karma as a mage from now on as she was always supposed to be.
Now, the next fight starts: make Rito acknowledge Karma is supposed to be an anti-dive battlemage and not some Lux/Orinna clone... thing.
Thryale2 votesI know it's 3-4 years too late, but it feels good to hear ppl say this, finally. Karma, even old karma, always has been primarily a mage, and always should be.
Shuyin1783 votesActually..... every champion gets changes like these (except for a few champions which was noted on S@20's notes) because they are pre-season stat changes to help with the transition away from runes/masteries and into Runes Reforged.
It has nothing to do with being a mage or not.
Abyssphere3 votesNope. Look at the changes. APCs got base HP and HP per level changes (as Karma did). Enchanters and ranged bot laners in general got +9 armour (even Zyra), but Karma did not.
Karma got the compensation that mid laners got and not what supports got. Riot have treated her as a mid lane mage in this case.
0 Hogapu2 votesCouldn't have explained better than you did lol
Cute Vegan Boy3 votesIf you don't think Karma is a "real mage" then you haven't half-hit 3 people with one Mantra Q. Then, as they're stricken with shock, they turn around, only to be hit with the second explosion, killing them.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesOf course, most players are smart enough to just walk out of the Q2. The thing only has a 3 years delay. And if they turn around, it's because you're not tank build and they realize you just used your only offensive ability.
0 Hogapu1 votesTrust me, I already did ;) The issue is that she has only 1 damagin ability, with low reliability on it.... and that little by little she gets balanced around support, losing her mage identity.
OyddAWqJ5r4 votesHer new W and the loss of her old E is what made her a support.
Old Karma was great :(
Thryale3 votesI was a god with old karma. I could bully anyone out of lane and could control team fights as I pleased. 300+ dmg cone aoe nuke with a 300hp heal attached every 3 secs? yes plz! 600hp barrier that lasts 5 secs every 6 secs? yes plz! An amumu ult sized aoe that deals dmg equal to the size of my shield? yes plz!
I know ppl make a big deal out of her old passive, but honestly I didn't care for it, and it was largely invisible power anyway. I'd gladly sacrifice that for a much weaker passive if I could just get the above back.
TheBestFioraEver1 votesIt's not low reliability. That shit is fast and she offers insane steroids + 40% max hp heal with rw. just one r + e can give entire team the ardent effect and then just spam q's with your 40% cdr and do more damage than your mid laner.
0 Hogapu4 votesYou seem pretty biased lol Karma can't hit backline consistently because her Q and RQ don't to through the frontline, while a Lux or a Syndra don't have this issue, making their poke more reliable "Insane steroids", that remains an ultimate and needs to have some power in it (given she doesn't have that much strenght in her kit anyways), and giving the whole team the ardent buff is not that big of an issue either (think of taric Q lol) And you need to check how does her RW work, it is 20% of her missing health, 2 times, which is really different than 40%max hp.
Thryale2 votesI want my shield bomb back. and my low cd cone baed aoe for a Q (who wants to spam Q's every 3 secs with max cdr? I do!)
I'd also like to see her shield break 600 hp and last for 5 secs again with a 6 second cd with max cdr.
doubleguac2 votesThe problem with Karma mid was always just wave clear. I don't think they've really pigeon-holed her into support with balance changes. They've just never touched this core issue that makes it hard to send her mid. The leash and shield buffs/nerfs impact both roles pretty evenly. I can't remember them ever touching her Q, which is what would make or break her ability to hold a solo lane.
Unless Riot gives her a new way to wave clear, I think she'll always be primarily a support. But she's still a fine mid lane pick at most ELOs, and counters a few assassins pretty well (fizz for example).
I can't see how Riot could elegantly add more waveclear to her kit, unless they rework one of her abilities. Right now, there's nowhere to put it. You can't just buff the Q damage, but that's the only spell she has that effects minions. So I'm not really expecting her status to change this season.
IxtaliKing2 votesYou are right about wave clear being her main issue for mid. The easiest way around this would be to make RQ (RQ only) a ground targeted projectile, like Lux's E.
doubleguac1 votesI'd be concerned about RQ becoming easier to land. It's an incredibly strong ability. AP karma will easily knock out over half a squishies health bar with just the first part of it. You'd also be able to position it to almost guarantee landing the second explosion (or at least force an enemy to walk towards you, which is also very strong).
If Riot really wanted to make her viable mid, they could just jack up the Q damage against minions. It wouldn't really be elegant, but I think it would solve a lot of her problems. She's otherwise a pretty decent utility pick. And, despite all the hate her rework continues to get on the boards, I find her pretty fun. Her kit is straightforward and satisfying.
IxtaliKing1 votesI'd be concerned about RQ becoming easier to land.
Making the spell ground targeted doesn't necessarily make it easier to land, it just means it has greater potential. The point of this change would be to make RQ more reliable at closer ranges, and less so at max ranges (its currently the opposite). It would actually allow for more counter play since it could be easily be baited out to a max range cast, while you turn back and dive on her.
AP karma will easily knock out over half a squishies health bar with just the first part of it.
I usually suggest moving some of RQs initial damage to the explosion, giving the spell even more counter play than it has now.
You'd also be able to position it to almost guarantee landing the second explosion (or at least force an enemy to walk towards you, which is also very strong).
Adding depth without removing counter play. A ground targeted RQ increases Karma's options and out play potential, but it doesn't make it guaranteed by a long shot. Especially at max range, it will be easier to deal with at longer ranges. Besides, with this change you would be a lot more likely to see Karma players RQ for wave management in lane rather than gambling it away for just poke.
If Riot really wanted to make her viable mid, they could just jack up the Q damage against minions. It wouldn't really be elegant, but I think it would solve a lot of her problems.
It wouldn't solve any of her problems at all. This would make sense if damage was her issue for mid, its not. Her issue in mid lane is access, her spells don't allow her to manage waves efficiently and she also falls off as a mage since she loses access to the backline. This ends up with her having to rely on large AoE shields in the late game because there is little she can do beyond that - meaning she becomes less interactive as the game progresses. That's poor design.
And, despite all the hate her rework continues to get on the boards, I find her pretty fun. Her kit is straightforward and satisfying
Yeah I enjoy Karma too, she's my favourite champ. However, every bit of hate her rework has received over the years has been 100% justified. Riot threw the baby out with the bath water when they reworked her, they deleted basically everything about her and gave us something generic and incomplete. She was a rushed rework, and now she's just a poor design.
doubleguac1 votesIt wouldn't solve any of her problems at all. This would make sense if damage was her issue for mid, its not. Her issue in mid lane is access, her spells don't allow her to manage waves efficiently and she also falls off as a mage since she loses access to the backline. This ends up with her having to rely on large AoE shields in the late game because there is little she can do beyond that - meaning she becomes less interactive as the game progresses. That's poor design.
This is a great point. It is hard to impact late game team fights if the enemy team has a decent front line. Every RQ just gets body blocked. I like your suggestion of moving some RQ damage from the initial burst to the explosion. That would also make me less worried about making the RQ ground targeted. Although, I still think you would have to reduce the AoE if you wanted to increase the reliability of the ability that much.
IxtaliKing1 votesAlthough, I still think you would have to reduce the AoE if you wanted to increase the reliability of the ability that much.
It wouldn't increase reliability at longer ranges, only at shorter ranges. I doubt they would have to reduce the AoE though.
Voluug132 votesWhich is so ironic since she was the queen of aoe before the rework.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesI'm kind curious about why they want Karma mid, but Zyra bot...? It's weird, isn't it, because Karma actually has support abilities (a shield and ms boost), while Zyra has none?
I'm not saying that I don't kind of agree, but I'm actually not loving the pigeon-holing champs into certain roles with their stats. If anything, we should have 2-3 choices in starting stats for our champ based on where we want to play them, if we need to go that route. Would take the same slot as old masteries on champ select.
TNHA Baritone1 votesMeddler actually has commented about helping Zyra go mid without buffing her support (on the ZyraMains subreddit)
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesI'm sure they'd love to do that. And I think that giving stat options would help with that goal; I'm kind of surprised that there isn't more outrage about it, since most people love to rage about Riot rigging the game and forcing champs into certain roles.
I don't see it quite that way, but I still value options. I think there's a danger in Riot pre-selecting where a champ should play instead of letting players problem-solve that out themselves. That does lead to many Zyra/Karma situations, admittedly, but I prefer that over having little customization because of the raw stats of the champ. Doesn't seem good to me for the long-term health of the game.
BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votesGonna miss playing her as support :*
IxtaliKing3 votesIf Karma is a good mage she'll be good as a support, so you won't need to miss her xD. The same can't be said the other way around though.
BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votesIt was kinda satire but yeah
IxtaliKing1 votesLol, my apologies.
BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votesIt's okay :)
koshkyra1 votesBrand and Vel'koz do not need buffs. Idk why Zyra wasnt given the buff tho
Whiteeye Avelyn3 votesWith runes going away leaving any champion in the game as they are now would make them unplayable no one is getting "Buffed" Per say everyone is just getting a tune up.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesNobody's getting a true buff. Everybody's getting, instead, a stat-base increase to compensate for the lack of runes.
Overall, everyone's likely losing some stats.