draven is not fun to play against (wall of text)

AmetDeCrypt··13 votes·2,237 views

... well I could probably leave it at that and get upvotes but I want to go farther so first why I personally think he's not fun to play against boils down to in order

  1. his damage. and I don't mean "oh his q does so much" necessarily, I've played as and against and I'm fine with the balance it provides between predictable movement and damage and it lets me set up some encounters quite nicely, and it's not like I have to go in and 1v1 him every chance I get. no my problem is that once he hits two or three items, you just can't fight him, you're both squishy and he has more damage than you and lategame it becomes assassin level damage. the solution is just not to fight draven basically. it's quite uninteractive waiting around for someone else to take the draven out while you punch the tank for a bit to discourage them doing their thing.

  2. his kit design. with his passive giving him a massive gold in boost in any kill if and when he kills you in a fight, his ult executes and his w steroids on a reset. draven is the dude that's thirsty for gold and your blood. every part of his lore and design is that one asshole that wants to fight everyone, but his kit means if you do there are very few outcomes outside "you lose." quite nice thematic design I must admit but it just feels so bad to play against in game, I think they actually did TOO good a job with draven's fantasy. you've all seen the draven. if or not he has flash and he's just peacefully farming in lane and the moment he sees you he pops his w and you're just like "well time to leave" because you know he's gunning for that bounty running in like some demented sea pineapple inhabiting sea sponge (yeah it reminds me of spongebob for some reason)

3.his power budget. it's pretty much all in his q and probably the real reason he is the way he is today. when you have someone in a class of characters whose defining trait happens to be that he's better than anyone else in that class at what they do, namely auto attacks, there's not much to do about it other than not try to play to his strengths.

so what to do? I've heard some suggestions of "make his q bleed" and that makes some good sense. after all it mirrors darius in design and nowhere in dravens kit is he "the dude that punches really hard." he's the executioner, and that for him means a slow drawn out spectacle ending in the enemy's execution, and bleeding an enemy out might just do the trick. other people suggest changing his passive to not be just gold stacks, and while I can see what it's doing, build up the audience and they throw stuff into the arena on kill. adoration could be a much more unique mechanic. if combo'd with his q bleed that may or may not stack it could reward progressively aggressive play with some of the damage the bleed may be missing or a general frenzy like his w is right now if it were moved to his passive to be used in and only in combat. building back up to the execution damage when he finally finishes off an opponent.

36 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votes

You clearly weren't playing when Draven had his bleed passive, there's a reason that thing was reworked.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

he had it once? also I did play way back in beta, I just wasn't very good and also I was like 10 and mained top nunu for giggles.

lil koda3 votes

dravens ult does not execute sorry

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

it's a global execute, it goes and comes back and does a lot of damage.

lil koda3 votes

that is not what we define as an execute

AmetDeCrypt2 votes

then our definitions differ and not my problem to correct you boy.

lil koda2 votes

lol. ignorance is bliss

AmetDeCrypt2 votes

to then to be clear

draven's ult is not for and can't be used for execution...

lil koda2 votes

dravens ult does not scale with missing hp, there for its not an "execution" its just a nuke ability, because using it on a full hp target and a low hp target it does the same damage, ape.

AmetDeCrypt2 votes

ah I see. you subscribe to the singular rigid definition for life whilst bitching at everyone else mantra I hear is so popular with the kids these days.

lil koda2 votes

you mean the definition of the game... you cant talk about balance and throw around false information

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

dude. it's an execution ability with long range, its damage gets reduced for each enemy passed and stops at enemy champions, meaning it is lackluster in teamfights at best and unreliable to useless at worst. it's mainly used in small fights when he wants to secure a kill. hence, to execute an enemy. urgot's new ult doesn't scale with missing hp either but it WILL kill you and only you if you are low enough health. the mechanics is less important than the design and use. you may, if you do not lack reasoning skill begin to see now where I take issues with this. [zombie-brand-clap]

also, I'm not even talking about balance here. just general design changes.

lil koda4 votes

but urgots ult changes with the enemy missing a certain amount of health, meaning execution. i know you're not going to accept that you're wrong, so im done with this. you're too stubborn

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

so maybe urgot was a bad example. let us try these champions Caitlyn Chogath Darius Fizz Graves Karthus LeeSin Lux RekSai Syndra Zed Ziggs TwistedFate (last one kind of debatable) all of them have several things in common. they all

  1. are used for one purpose, that being to track down and/or kill an enemy who has either gotten away by closing a gap or firing a projectile after them
  2. don't scale on enemy health, but on other factors, and DO do a metric shitton of damage
  3. are executes barring perhaps the last one.
  4. don't have that much aoe (barring ziggs ult if they're clumped up) and are best suited to killing one or two targets at a time
  5. have very little other purpose other than the aforementioned "kill this one person" in most cases. please tell me how I'm being stubborn explaining every facet of my reasoning while you sit and respond "iss not execute is not scale on enemy health" unless you really are done being obstinate which I can understand perfectly.
Nickosaurus1 votes

{quoted}

so maybe urgot was a bad example. let us try these champions Caitlyn Chogath Darius Fizz Graves Karthus LeeSin Lux RekSai Syndra Zed Ziggs TwistedFate (last one kind of debatable) all of them have several things in common. they all

  1. are used for one purpose, that being to track down and/or kill an enemy who has either gotten away by closing a gap or firing a projectile after them
  2. don't scale on enemy health, but on other factors, and DO do a metric shitton of damage
  3. are executes barring perhaps the last one.
  4. don't have that much aoe (barring ziggs ult if they're clumped up) and are best suited to killing one or two targets at a time
  5. have very little other purpose other than the aforementioned "kill this one person" in most cases. please tell me how I'm being stubborn explaining every facet of my reasoning while you sit and respond "iss not execute is not scale on enemy health" unless you really are done being obstinate which I can understand perfectly.

Executes are attacks that delete a champ at a certain amount of health while letting them know they have reached that point.

D3m37r12 votes

His passive used to make his q and crits bleed. Apparently it was op in lane and useless later on.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

that doesn't make sense... if crits bled that would be a lategame thing right? but it wouldn't be a bad idea having the bonus damage on his q being a bleed effect instead of upfront damage, it'd be the same damage just with more opportunity to play around it before the bleed got so bad you couldn't trade with him anymore.

D3m37r11 votes

No the bleed was in addition to the bonus dmg on his q.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

now that's just busted...

Terozu2 votes

I think he should have to do more than catch axes. He should have to chain and combo abilities for stacks. Make it actually entertaining not OH! I caught the axe omg amzing amirite!? Hes basically a one trick... For instance, what if, he ults out, and it marks targets. If it kills marked targets on returning, THEN he gets a lot of stacks and bonus gold.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

yeah for a slightly macabre entertainer you'd think his kit would be a bit more flashy other than the spinny glowy axes he's kinda boring to watch.

Shuyin1782 votes

A Draven killed me with 1 Q auto today. 1 How is that even allowed???

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

did you get within a tower or two range of him?

pretty much beggin for death there.

Raven Redeemed2 votes

To me Draven is unfun to play against because his window of power (spinning axes) is not really windowed during the lane because his axes are probably always up and he can reset his W. He is probably pushing the lane so even if you punish him for going to catch the axes he is going to have the minion advantage.

I'm not sure how to fix him. A Q bleed could be good, or perhaps have his Q ramp up in damage when attacking a champ, or his Q stops bouncing after attacking champs for a while. He needs his power windowed somehow.

Executioner1 votes

I remember when Draven had his bleed, I ran ignite and almost always got a first blood on him. Though that was when he was first released up till his passive got changed.

ParvatiShallow1 votes

draven always had a clear weakness in that he telegraphs his movements and has no escapes. Design wise that makes him fair. He should be high damage high risk. His core items got buffed and if he is with a good support like janna he can seem unkillable. I think he is a bit too strong currently but he has clear weaknesses which people forget. He could get a couple minor nerfs and be fine.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

I can totally accept he's balanced as a champion

my point is he just feels awful to play against, it's just not fun for anyone he faces even if they win against him.

I Main Swain1 votes

gotta be honest, the biggest problem with draven is that a lot of people dont know how to deal with him. i played him a lot for a long time and since then ive never had a problem with him that felt unfair. i will say that yes he does beat out almost every adc in a 1v1 trade, but youre not supposed to try to trade with him, youre supposed to poke him, cc him, make him drop axes, etc. his real problem from a design perspective is that hes the single most feast or famine champion in the entire game. hes literally just auto attacks and an ult and if gets behind hes basically a really squishy super minion. ive always wondered how it would be if they changed his q to make him deal more damage the further away an enemy is or if their back is turned or something, could be interesting. it would fit with his lore and i think it would be balanced, only problem is it would take out the high skill high reward aspect of draven (which i will admit is a big thing to be taking out). all that being said, i entirely expect to be downvoted by everyone for "defending a toxic no counterplay champion", considering thats whats happened every time ive taken part in any draven thread

AmetDeCrypt2 votes

well I never said no counterplay. just the counterplay that exists (don't fight him) is entirely disheartening and makes you feel like you aren't really participating in a game if when you walk even within an inch to his range you're going to be pretty much deleted or forced to burn several summoners.

I Main Swain1 votes

sorry if it sounded like i was meaning you, im just referring to the people who complain without actually trying to learn more. basically, if youre playing against him, just kite or cc him, pretty much hes the same as tryndamere except modified for a ranged champ who cant make himself unkillable. what i always recommend when someone is lost on how to play against a champion is to spend a lot of time playing that champion, i can guarantee that you'll soon learn a lot about how to deal with them. that being said, i get that that's not your point. honestly i feel like riot will give him a soft rework at some point just because the inherent nature of his kit, while fun to use and rewarding for high skill, is just overall probably more on the unhealthy side than not just because hes either useless or he can solo carry theres no real in between.

i cant move wtf1 votes

Another "adc's should do ramp-up damage" thread. Nobody likes this idea except people who don't know how to play against marksmen/adcs.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

let me just search thaaaat and I never mentioned ramp up damage at all. it's only you and some other dude in the comments. read the post, I specifically say "I know how to play against draven, it's just not fun at all."

checkmate, atheists. and the ramp up I mention is not only for damage but for a more showy play from draven in the form of ramping up to fancy executions resulting from outplays that show off the player skill. right now draven is "difficult" in that catching and manipulating axes requires high mechanical skill in teamfights, however his 1v1 potential after even 1 item is disgustingly good and requires no more skill or planning than "w run up q aa aa aa aa aa" because he just does more damage than any carry auto to auto and it's boring and binary and limits his kit drastically.

i cant move wtf1 votes

Name one adc who is less boring and binary than draven.

AmetDeCrypt2 votes

well for one all of them but tristana but let's break a few down. draven has 1 damage buff that forces him to move in a binary and predictable fashion, some speed, and some damageish skills to throw in one direction and a gold passive.

varus has a charging q that can be reset on popping his w passive that stacks up and deals some decent tank busting damage, a slow that is also a heal reduction enabling him to better keep people in his ult to stack up his w and root them

jhin has massive ups and downs in power with his fourth bullet and can have a great or awful laning phase depending on how pressure is applied and his opponents ability to outrange him as well as hard to aim bullets on his ult (ok not that hard) that require hitting low health targets for maximum effectiveness and serve as excellent zoning tools that can completely change the landscape of a teamfight.

lucian is a spellslinger that requires staying mobile and animation cancelling in order to deal maximum damage, weaving in and out of fights and using his e reset mechanics in order to keep at the effective distance for damage.

xayah has massive aoe mechanics and whilst simple require good positioning of feathers and attacks for maximum effect for the draw, and her ult allows a normally immobile adc to be somewhat safe against dives.

twitch has very little power until he hits his ult at which point he can pop out of pretty much anywhere in a teamfight and start aoeing people down. he's also one of the few adc I like taking a sweeper on because his movement speed and stealth safety make him very good at scouting out locations other adc would be more apprehensive of going into.

draven punches people, and he punches them hard. he has few to no tools not relating to punching people save a single disrupt. he's the epitome of a skillful binary champion that is awful in bad matchups and oppressive in good ones. but always boring.

i cant move wtf1 votes

You literally just downplayed your description of draven and tried to sell all the others. If you don't like draven maybe just don't play him. He's the hardest adc of all the ones you listed despite you thinking he's so mundane. I don't like xayah but I also realize I should be the last person suggesting how to rework her for that same reason.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

you're well within your right to suggest reworking xayah. and difficulty does not indicate complexity, which draven is not in the slightest.

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