PSA: Blade of the Ruined King and Black Cleaver Synergy is Gone

The Yetii Rider·Jun 15, 2017·33 votes·4,927 views

This was honestly too much of a change to leave sitting in the bugfix area of the patch notes. Now, if you build both and , it will take you twice as long to fully stack Black Cleaver as it did before this patch.

For those who haven't seen, the on-hit damage from Blade of the Ruined King is no longer treated as an application of physical damage for the purposes of adding a stack of The Black Cleaver. This is clearly not a bug, as we have several instances of multiple physical damage proccing multiple stacks (it's a feature of Darius with his Hemorrhage passive).

This is a flat nerf to try and bring Lucian and other Black Cleaver BoRK rushers in line. Be careful when you head onto the Rift, impatient summoners who don't read the whole patch notes.

45 Comments

RengoooJun 15, 201739 votes

All I'm going to say is, this is one of my favorite bug fixes..

Cloud273Jun 15, 201718 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eWKFLHze,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-15T02:00:35.220+0000)

This was honestly too much of a change to leave sitting in the bugfix area of the patch notes. Now, if you build both and , it will take you twice as long to fully stack Black Cleaver as it did before this patch.

For those who haven't seen, the on-hit damage from Blade of the Ruined King is no longer treated as an application of physical damage for the purposes of adding a stack of The Black Cleaver. This is clearly not a bug, as we have several instances of multiple physical damage proccing multiple stacks (it's a feature of Darius with his Hemorrhage passive).

This is a flat nerf to try and bring Lucian and other Black Cleaver BoRK rushers in line. Be careful when you head onto the Rift, impatient summoners who don't read the whole patch notes.

Maybe it's a good thing they don't synergize well. Anti tank items are already WAY too strong as it is.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Maybe it's a good thing they don't synergize well. Anti tank items are already WAY too strong as it is.

Not arguing against it one way or another. Just stating that it's a nerf, not a bugfix, and drawing attention to it.

JunkοJun 15, 20172 votes

It's not a nerf, it's a bugfix. You could never before proc multiple instances of BC with a single AA and on hits, Darius has his passive which is a physical damage DOT, it doesn't proc multiple stacks instantly, if you use W you only get 1 stack as intended.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's not a nerf, it's a bugfix. You could never before proc multiple instances of BC with a single AA and on hits, Darius has his passive which is a physical damage DOT, it doesn't proc multiple stacks instantly, if you use W you only get 1 stack as intended.

It's not a bug. Every other instance of enhanced damage in the game is simply that, enhanced damage. Darius's does give multiple stacks because of his passive, but it doesn't give two stacks instantly because the damage dealt was just his auto attack with a stronger AD component. Same with Spellblade, it increases the damage you deal by an amount equal to 200% of your base AD or whatever.

Blade of the Ruined King deals additional physical damage on hit. Bloodrazor does the same thing, so no, you're just wrong when you say that it's the only instance of The Black Cleaver stacks. Also Kindred's old passive worked the same way, with physical damage on hit, which is why The Black Cleaver was so powerful on her. She built Bloodrazor, had her passive, so each of her autos applied three stacks of The Black Cleaver at once.

woodvsmurphJun 15, 20172 votes

bork bonus damage is and was SUPPOSED TO BE just like sheen - amping the damage rather than counting as another, separate attack. Thus they fixed it so it does just that - which just happens to stop phantom stacking of cleaver passive. Bloodrazor SHOULD be working in the same way. This is 100% different from item 3124 which has a passive that DOUBLES the on-hit/applies it twice. With rageblade fully charged, autoing someone SHOULD apply 2 stacks of cleaver. That is the ONLY item in the game which should do so if no items are bugged based on what the items are SUPPOSED to do.[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

woodvsmurphJun 15, 20171 votes

It is a bugfix. Those can be nerfs, buffs, or neutral and still be a bugfix.

GULAG 4 UJun 15, 20177 votes

Thank god it was fucking stupid.

Praise rito.

Violent HunterJun 15, 20175 votes

Ummm you built blade into cleaver not because you could stack cleaver faster but because the flat armor pen you get from the stacks allowed Blade to do more damage even through armor. The bug is a fix but that wasn't the synergy talked about when you build blade into cleaver.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 201715 votes

It is not flat armor pen. It is the opposite of flat armor pen. You literally have two words you can use to describe armor pen in this game and you choose the one that is incorrect.

RengoooJun 15, 20171 votes

I mean... Technically speaking all armour reducing effects are flat amounts.. % pens a flat amount of armour, the value is simply determined by the targets total amount.

Battlecast SonaJun 15, 20179 votes

no.

flat armor pen no longer exists except in the form of lethality, but it reduces the target's armor by a # and not a percent. % armor pen is what black cleaver gives, because the number is not "flat" (it changes based on the target's armor).

The distinction is important because they're good against different kinds of targets. Flat armor pen is most effective against targets with no armor and quickly loses effectiveness as targets stack armor, while % pen is the opposite.

RengoooJun 15, 20172 votes

Lol, yes... I realise the distinction, however if you want to take a completely literal approach then there is no difference other than flat armour pen is a set value, or now in lethalities case a scaling flat value based on the targets level.

% pen works by the same means, except instead of the targets level, it is based on the targets total or bonus armour.

For example, if you have an ability like say Wukongs Q at max rank with a 30% armour shred, and you hit a target with 100 armour, then technically speaking you have just reduced their armour by a flat 30.

The only difference between them is in the way that the value of armour reduced is calculated.

Battlecast SonaJun 15, 20176 votes

But if the target gets 110 armor the value changes, meaning it's not flat.

If you wanna be SUPER pedantic about it I guess you're not wrong, but it seems to me you said something dumb and are now trying desperately to defend it, which just makes it look even dumber.

RengoooJun 15, 20172 votes

"It's not flat" A straight value / number is a flat value. If the targets armour increases then the % will simply increase the value of the flat armour reduced, this really isn't rocket science...

And yes you are partially right, my initial comment was sort of joking, but none the less it has logic behind it?

InsteadJun 15, 20176 votes

What are you even smoking? In the context of this game it is well understood that a flat amount is a constant amount such as how Vayne's W deals a flat amount in addition to a percentage of the target's max hp. An amount that depends on another factor is a variable amount.

RengoooJun 15, 20171 votes

This community is funny.... That's what riot said so it has to be set in stone! Say other wise??? shame!

Riot didn't just come up with the term "flat amount", it's just adapted over time to be generally excepted as a straight number that doesn't move. Not sure why I'm trying to argue this point though lol, you lot all seem to be a bit to narrow minded, reminds me of arguments with children actually :/

Morgan SlavemanJun 15, 20175 votes

"I'm not wrong, everyone else is a narrow minded child" - that must be how idiots with too much pride to admit they're wrong see others. It's quite sad.

RengoooJun 15, 20171 votes

I mean.. If you say so...

But... are you saying that because I'm in the minority here (just myself lol) I should just not voice my opinion? That I should just follow with what the masses say? Because in my opinion that is exactly what is wrong with these boards.. Edit: or any social media infact.

Take all this new Rengar hype for example.. Only a few days ago you would be down voted into oblivion for talking about a Rengar revert, now.. Somehow its the complete oposite. People just go with the flow because they are scared of being down voted :/ Which kinda sucks wouldn't you agree?

And yes, I appologise for the insult, I was getting irritated because I was being downvoted, but I should have expected that whilst making my comment.

Mig89Jun 15, 20176 votes

You're just trying to create an argument. In the context of this game which is what these boards are for and what we are all speaking of, there is a difference in how you say it. Riot didn't invent the word but that applied them to their game with a clear understanding of what they mean. You're making the child like argument by not accepting that you're wrong under any circumstance when we can provide how the values are applied

RengoooJun 15, 20171 votes

Well... You are right in one thing, I'm not going to accept I am wrong just because a small handful of people are telling me so... Not entirely sure how you could go a head and classify that as "under any circumstance.."

My having an alternate opinion obviously irritates you :/ But incase you hadn't noticed I am entitled to an opinion.

InsteadJun 15, 20179 votes

I would like to apologize for my minor insult previously. I would also like to clarify that I could care less about down-votes; they have no practical value and we're all anonymous on the internet. I would never help "gang up" on someone on the internet and argue something I didn't believe, that's a waste of time. The reason I felt compelled to correct you was that "flat" being a constant value is not a matter of opinion, and I was genuinely perplexed by how you didn't see it that way.

Now allow me to explain. A "flat" value is synonymous to a "fixed" or "constant" value, which are values that don't change. Yes I do realize it gets confusing as the flat amount is reduced by resists such as armor and mr and therefore are dependent on them but the distinction is made only as far as the initial value before resists which I understand may seem arbitrary but these semantics are shared universally through all games across all genres.

Well, just because everyone says something is right, doesn't make it right, as this is very arbitrary. While it seems like I may be narrow-minded in automatically saying everyone who uses anything else is wrong, being as these are established semantics that are used for all games, it's only reasonable because when someone comes up with their own meanings things get really confusing, and meaning can no longer be consistently communicated.

Violent HunterJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eWKFLHze,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-06-15T03:40:09.236+0000)

It is not flat armor pen. It is the opposite of flat armor pen. You literally have two words you can use to describe armor pen in this game and you choose the one that is incorrect.

Then what do you call it? Its a set amount of armor pen and its not just taking in account bonus armor but total armor including the armor from runes and masteries and base armor from the champion. That's what flat armor pen is and that's what they got rid of with the Lethality changes except for with black cleaver. Get your facts straight.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20174 votes

My facts are straight. We have two types of penetration: flat and %.

Flat armor pen is lethality, stuff like item 3142 , where if your target is level 18 they always lose 15 armor against you.

The Black Cleaver is % armor shred, so it scales based on the target's armor. The number is not flat by any means, it is different against every champion you target. Additionally, it's not penetration because it is shred. One person has already noted that shred reduces your armor before penetration effects like lethality apply. Another important point is that shred actually reduces the target's armor rather than ignoring it. This means your allies will deal more physical damage to the target, where penetration only affects your damage. The target also takes more ambient physical damage that would otherwise be reduced by armor, such as tower shots, minion aggro and baron/dragon attacks.

SalronJun 15, 20173 votes

No one ever built it for the synergy, because it was assumed that the Blade damage didn't stack cleaver This is a nerf, but it doesn't change anything in terms of itemization, because Lucian is still going to build the same items

And it doesn't "halve" the speed at which you stack cleaver, because any physically damaging ability still gave 1 stack before this change, and will continue giving 1 stack after it It stacks roughly 30% slower, not 50%, because autos aren't the only source of cleaver stacks

Darkdemon653Jun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eWKFLHze,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-06-15T04:39:11.823+0000)

No one ever built it for the synergy, because it was assumed that the Blade damage didn't stack cleaver

We've known about it for years. We've known from the moment BC was changed to stack from all sources physical damage and not just auto-attacks.

AirKingNeoJun 15, 20171 votes

No, we haven't because this interaction was originally removed in season 4 or so.

Cosmic WarperJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eWKFLHze,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-06-15T04:39:11.823+0000)

No one ever built it for the synergy, because it was assumed that the Blade damage didn't stack cleaver This is a nerf, but it doesn't change anything in terms of itemization, because Lucian is still going to build the same items

And it doesn't "halve" the speed at which you stack cleaver, because any physically damaging ability still gave 1 stack before this change, and will continue giving 1 stack after it It stacks roughly 30% slower, not 50%, because autos aren't the only source of cleaver stacks

well lucian used to be able to get 5 stacks off of one Q + passive auto when he had bork and cleaver, now it will give 3 stacks which is a good nerf.

AirKingNeoJun 15, 20173 votes

And Aatrox is dead again.

Cosmic WarperJun 15, 20172 votes

Now remove lifesteal proccing off of the on-hit of bork...

DeadUnbornJun 15, 20172 votes

wtf....no wonder lucian was broken

woodvsmurphJun 15, 20172 votes

Wow so people have to be honest and auto 6 whole times to shred 24% of your armor? Impossible request - pls un-nerf lol. This shouldn't have happened in the first place - that's why it's a "bugfix" and not an item rework. Adc's have so much attack speed anyways that they will get this off quite fast - faster than caster bruisers other than darius (since his passive as you point out). Lucian will notice it the least due to his passive. Maybe it will hurt mf, but she's hardly common these days and she doesn't buy it for autos mostly anyways.

DoozkuJun 15, 20171 votes

Wait, those items actually synergized like that? How did I not know this?

SeenanJun 15, 20171 votes

Yeah, I made a topic addressing it a few hours ago calling it a bugfix, but it probably seems like a pretty good nerf instead.

MeDicenWeraJun 15, 20171 votes

Thank god they're gone if that's the case but they looked awesome together in the inventory.

KoKobotoJun 15, 20171 votes

I don't even think it will change much lol. auto, q, bang bang, e, bang bang and that's around 1-2s. I guess it will help against fighting squishies so that's good.

Ah O Yeah HarderJun 15, 20171 votes

Great. Now what do I build top lane against a singed as jayce. Black cleaver and Lord Dominiks does nothing to him.

Ungrateful ThugJun 15, 20171 votes

Interesting

SolidariusJun 15, 20171 votes

I am confused... are you talking about the active?

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I am confused... are you talking about the active?

I am not. Blade of the Ruined King has a passive that deals a % of the target's current health whenever you hit them. This is additional physical damage that is separate from the physical attack that triggered it (unlike say Spellblade, where the attack's damage is enhanced specifically rather than separating it into two distinct applications of damage).

The Black Cleaver shreds a target's armor whenever you apply a source of physical damage to them. If you have Blade of the Ruined King before this patch, each auto attack against a champion applied two stacks of The Black Cleaver. Now that has been removed.

SolidariusJun 16, 20172 votes

thank you for explaining I had no idea BORK worked like that