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@RIOT you should add minion bounty sharing and here is a coherent argument about why:

Critkeeper··29 votes·1,767 views

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ePoTdj_5mt4/T2ZAAwNEnGI/AAAAAAAAJoA/rSCRq3Gu-JE/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Mary%2BPoppins-farewell.jpg

What is full minion bounty sharing? If the support last hit a minion both the marksman and the support would get the gold. If the marksman last hit a minion, the support and the marksman would both get the gold. Of course its not tied to marksmen or supports, any two champions within a certain range of an enemy minion that dies to an ally will receive the bounty.

#Before judging this on the surface please consider the subtle ways it affects the game, I said I'd make a coherent argument so that is what I'm going to do:

The support could go to any lane to support whatever lane needed it the most, roaming from lane to lane not necessarily for a gank, but to actually stay in a lane to help the person who is struggling.

Junglers will still want to jungle in general because it offers untelegraphed ganking power, whereas if you had 5 laners and no jungle you are pretty much telegraphing when the extra laner is going to gank another lane because he has to leave the lane he is already in. Smite is still a good option for objectives, and it is nice to have at least one on your team even though it doesn't do much of anything in the lane, but makes jungling far easier. Thus, even with this change it would still be a winning strategy to have a jungler.

Even if you had something exotic like 1 3 1 and no jungler, it is just a matter of tradeoffs. The other team can afford to send their support up to make it a 1 2 1 + jungler and probably hold the lane in mid and use their jungler to secure advantage on the side lanes.

Support items could be readjusted in price and function so that they cost about the same as everyone else's gear because now they get to have a regular amount of gold. This also gives them more variety and opens up the possibility of roaming plays that can only happen in an environment where supports are encouraged to roam around to the lanes that need their help the most.

For instance, ambushes set up by the junglers to keep the supports afraid, or using your jungler as an escort to transport the support safely to their destination. Some supports would be better at roaming (bard) and others a lot worse at it (raka). This adds an additional axis against which supports can be differentiated.

It makes the game feel more like a team game because you can actually send dedicated help to someone who is really just struggling with his opponent, due to a mistake or an accident early on.

Although I don't really watch esports and I don't care about them, it would make the game more exciting to watch early on since you have so much more roaming action and the regular possibility of having supports cross paths with enemy junglers as they compete with eachother to affect the outcome of the laning phase for each of the lanes. Ambushes, stalking, counter stalking, counterintelligence, all made much more relevant. Jungle + support would be the new "duo lane", and the lane would be the river and surrounding areas.

Frankly the game needs a shake up pretty bad. People are getting bored of the same old same old, and I really sympathize with RIOT that just changing the game for the sake of changing it isn't a good idea if it makes the game worse--- here's the thing though, I think my suggestion actually makes the game better.

Lane bullies can be given more contrast between their bullying power and scaling, because now there are supports that can help an ally survive an enemy lane bully (at the cost of not being able to help other lanes while doing so). Champions that typically don't lane because they are very weak to harass or being killed by a more popular pick now have an ace up their sleeve to help them be the best they can be.

It divorces the support and marksman role, so they can be their own separate entities. You could have marksman mid, mage bot, bruiser top, or assassin top, melee carry bot, and tank mid, or whatever assortment you'd like. It doesn't really matter. If you are struggling the support can lend you a hand for a few levels and then Mary Poppins their way to the next town in need.

Because marksmen aren't married to supports, they can be tuned in the same context as every other lane. That means we don't have an apples tooranges problem when balancing bot lane anymore, and it can have the same value as mid lane and top lane. Thus, every lane feels significant and the support is given the agency and variety of play that it needs to be an attractive role to a large enough segment of players to keep the queue times reasonable.

This solves the support agency problem and the bot lane gravity problem at the same time.

#Lastly this kind of thing CREATES diversity.

With a champion dedicated to being a parachute for failing lanes, people across the highest echelons of play will feel more confident about experimentation in actual games. They might pull out something unexpected to shake up how we think the game should be played, and it makes league of legends more dynamic and exciting.

26 Comments

HeavyHoplite11 votes

I think this could work. Would certainly make support more interesting as a role. I could see a lot of new strategies to use if a change like this goes through. Take an upvote.

PS: I appreciate the lack of toxicity here so many posts these days are rage posts its nice to see a good idea pop up.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

flibitydoo5 votes

it actually kills diversity

farming a lane gives much better income and exp than farming a jungle does.

back in season 4, this item item 3302 nearly killed jungling as a role because it allowed duo lanes to share farm. duo top started to blossom and riot quickly smothered it by massively increasing the cooldown on it to like 60 seconds from it's original 30 second cooldown.

roaming isn't hard (on any non-adc role as we've seen over the past few years with 5 man botlane ganks), and the pressure you gained out of having 2 players lane against one, allowed you to effectively shut one player out of the game because of that 2 man kill pressure top could zone them from both last hits and exp range.

You seem really intent on this whole "if supports had a reasonable income of gold they would be popular" but it has nothing to do with income, or buying big ticket items.

traditional supports and tanks are the most unpopular classes because they are the most team dependent and if your carry and/or your midlaner are mouthbreathing imbeciles, and you're stuck on a no damage role, you're going to lose.

Can you carry a losing game with supports? no. I main support and I've played enough to tell you that when it comes to turning games around and putting your team on your back that's blatantly false.

What you can do however, is be a big swing factor on those even (or slightly uneven) games by making good plays. You can be the winning push factor if the teams are balanced enough. These are the games that the boards justice warriors like to claim are supports carrying but it's not because every player on your team contributed to that win and if they didn't do their jobs then you wouldn't have been able to do yours.

But straight up if every lane feeds like garbage except for you, on a support champion doing actual supportive things you are not going to win. On an aggressive role like assassin or mage or bruiser or adc then potentially. If supports could not be team dependent then maybe players would be more inclined to play the role but that's a paradox in itself.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

it actually kills diversity

farming a lane gives much better income and exp than farming a jungle does.

Well golly, why not just adjust resource allocation so that isn't the case?

flibitydoo3 votes

there was a time when jungling was actually super exp profitable to the point where junglers would hit 6 before everyone else.

this time ended when the following champions ruined it by 1 v 5ing the enemy team after 20 minutes of no interaction Shyvana MasterYi Udyr XinZhao

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

there was a time when jungling was actually super exp profitable to the point where junglers would hit 6 before everyone else.

the following champions ruined it by 1 v 5ing the enemy team after 20 minutes of no interaction Shyvana MasterYi Udyr XinZhao

Well gee, it sure sounds like designing resource allocation so different map positions aren't on the same footing causes problems. If only there were some kind of mechanic that could ensure that didn't happen.

Like some kind of EXP ticker or something.

But that's silly, such a thing would actually reward people for roaming ganks/support instead of blessing them for watching minions murder each other.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

You did a great job with making a reasonable argument, as promised. I still don't agree, and here's why:

Whatever lane the support is in still has to share gold. It's bad enough making them share xp, but sharing gold also will make it so that neither of those players has enough gold to do their job against the other 3. I would not want to play support or marksmen in this kind of a system; I posit that they will just have less impact on the game.

That does change the game, and it would add diversity. I think the cost of those in this system is too high, though.

Instead, I think Riot needs to spend more time thinking about how to give legitimate gold to supports without taking it away from marksmen, and without making gold generation good for solo laners/junglers. The current gold items simply don't do the job well enough. It's that simple. If they found a way to fix that, I think the problem is solved, and it would disrupt the game a lot less.

Again, want to stress that I love your thinking here, and I think the discussion is valuable. Would love to keep bouncing ideas about it back and forth, perhaps some pros/cons type discussions. Anything to generate new ideas is good, in my book.

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

You did a great job with making a reasonable argument, as promised. I still don't agree, and here's why:

Whatever lane the support is in still has to share gold. It's bad enough making them share xp, but sharing gold also will make it so that neither of those players has enough gold to do their job against the other 3. I would not want to play support or marksmen in this kind of a system; I posit that they will just have less impact on the game.

That does change the game, and it would add diversity. I think the cost of those in this system is too high, though.

Instead, I think Riot needs to spend more time thinking about how to give legitimate gold to supports without taking it away from marksmen, and without making gold generation good for solo laners/junglers. The current gold items simply don't do the job well enough. It's that simple. If they found a way to fix that, I think the problem is solved, and it would disrupt the game a lot less.

Again, want to stress that I love your thinking here, and I think the discussion is valuable. Would love to keep bouncing ideas about it back and forth, perhaps some pros/cons type discussions. Anything to generate new ideas is good, in my book.

not share

double

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I just don't know about double gold for being in lane... That's a better idea, for sure. It still scares me for balance.

Cyrosi1 votes

{quoted}

You did a great job with making a reasonable argument, as promised. I still don't agree, and here's why:

Whatever lane the support is in still has to share gold. It's bad enough making them share xp, but sharing gold also will make it so that neither of those players has enough gold to do their job against the other 3. I would not want to play support or marksmen in this kind of a system; I posit that they will just have less impact on the game.

That does change the game, and it would add diversity. I think the cost of those in this system is too high, though.

Instead, I think Riot needs to spend more time thinking about how to give legitimate gold to supports without taking it away from marksmen, and without making gold generation good for solo laners/junglers. The current gold items simply don't do the job well enough. It's that simple. If they found a way to fix that, I think the problem is solved, and it would disrupt the game a lot less.

Again, want to stress that I love your thinking here, and I think the discussion is valuable. Would love to keep bouncing ideas about it back and forth, perhaps some pros/cons type discussions. Anything to generate new ideas is good, in my book.

I think it's sort of weird that supports need specific items to get a reasonable amount of gold in the first place. Why don't they just add passive gold generation (scaling to a certain point) to all heroes in a match who:

1.) Haven't attacked or used abilities on minions/monsters in 30 seconds, excluding abilities/attacks that also hit the enemy hero, with a 15 second grace period so you can't stop getting gold for missing one AOE shot against the enemy hero or accidentally hitting a minion. **2.)**Don't have any Jungle items. **3.)**Have a cs of less than 50. 4.) Haven't killed any Jungle monsters (excluding Baron, Herald, and Dragons). 5.) Just standing in your base or on your summoner's platform doesn't count towards the 30 seconds to get the bonus.

If they want to keep the gold/ward item combo and just add minor gold generation they can. Multiple Edits: because spelling and grammar exist.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I think that's bad because it leads to a situation that rewards you for doing nothing. Top laners, in particular, could abuse the hell out of this. All they have to do is stand in lane and survive.

It also disincentives active play on the support; you don't want to penalize supports for doing stuff in lane. That just leads to more of the play pattern with enchanters that people already hate; they do nothing, sit back, get gold, and heal/shield the adc. It's not fun.

toastMonkey4 votes

Positive idea and you defended your point without bashing. Well done. I also like the idea.

Sasogwa4 votes

It would require a large update on supports synergies, ratios and kits. Because supports are effectively calculated to work very well under low gold and low exp. Moving to other lanes would potentially weaken those lanes, as you steal their experience, unless you also do Mordekaiser-level rework. In which case you could actually 2-1-2 lanes and no jungle as you basically have free gold and free exp by just staying in a lane where you take nothing. This change has huge implications. Absolutely huge, and it would wreck havoc in the meta. Not saying I'm against, just saying it's pure yolo.

Kloqdq2 votes

The most simple solution is an item that grants Morde passive and remove that passive. That should have been a starting item for Brusiers and Juggs ages ago to actually lane against Marksman.

Rebonack3 votes

The game could really use it, IMO.

Trying to balance the game around notable differences in XP/Gold between lanes leads to situations where Riot has to stomp all over champions who move to the 'wrong' lane. It's why Enchanters get nuked off the face of the planet every time they manage to succeed in one of the solo lanes. They're balanced around being behind in gold/levels and when they're on equal footing they end up being massively over-tuned.

's why Sona is a constant ban on Ascension.

If everyone where operating on approximately the same gold/xp level (barring champs who are getting shut down) then it would make the game drastically easier for Riot to balance. And that's not even considering how much more flexibility in pick choices such a system would bring to the table.

Neekos Boyfriend2 votes

Kinda like "ambient gold" in Vainglory?

R2D202 votes

My main concern with this is that the botlane meta would shift to that have high wave clear -- as in but the ADC and Support pick someone with fast wave clear so that they clear waves and roam (either to mid or objectives). Because who last hits wouldn't matter you could potentially see more of a "all-in / kill lane" than you do currently which may make it a lot less fun to play.

50000000000000001 votes

Wouldn't last hits still matter? It doesn't matter who gets the last hit, but someone would have to get the last hit.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Yeah. The minions would. Meaning that everyone still splits it.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. The minions would. Meaning that everyone still splits it.

i was thinking that as long as an ally champion kills the minion, nearby allies get the bounty

R2D201 votes

I'm still saying that the ADC or Support would get the last hit, I'm just foreseeing something with massive wave clears being paired up and shifting the botlane meta - for example: Sivir Orianna they clear the wave and then speed off to a neutral objective or gank mid / invade jungle.

Basically what I think it'd boil down to is a high roam botlane with massive wave clear -- they wouldn't worry about putting the wave in a weird position because they clear it so fast that they could pressure other areas.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

I'm still saying that the ADC or Support would get the last hit, I'm just foreseeing something with massive wave clears being paired up and shifting the botlane meta - for example: Sivir Orianna they clear the wave and then speed off to a neutral objective or gank mid / invade jungle.

Basically what I think it'd boil down to is a high roam botlane with massive wave clear -- they wouldn't worry about putting the wave in a weird position because they clear it so fast that they could pressure other areas.

i mean whats to stop them from doing that right now? sounds like an optimal strategy with or without the suggested changes.

the best way to avoid being 4 manned is to not be there at all, and be ganking and killing the mid laner over and over instead.

R2D201 votes

What stops them now it typically you need to funnel money into the ADC to get them itemized to push waves/turrets. ADC's have a slower start and have to hard farm to be relevant. So if the support is taking money from ADC you are delaying the power spike meaning when you return to lane, the enemy ADC is going to be out farming you and punish you heavily for being under-farmed.

Quepha1 votes

Go play HotS if you want that kind of crap. I can't stand that game because Blizzard thinks heroes shouldn't have varied individual strength levels in a match.

BlakexEkalb1 votes

This sounds like relic shield, or am I missing something?

Solidair31 votes

I love your passion and I love the idea, too, but consider the following: Will the support be able to roam, really? Are they just leaving the adc to die against a support who stays on the enemy team? What about experience? A support in another lane will split that experience, giving an level advantage to the enemy lane.

And it's uncertain what giving full gold availability to a support would do. Would I have any reason to play Taric, Lulu, Janna, Leona, etc anymore? Their kits as supports are designed to work with low gold. Why don't I just play Syndra in bot lane now as a support? Why not an assassin? Does this kill diversity? Don't get me wrong, I love this concept but it's not as simple as doubling gold. Before anything like this would happen, I think we would need to solve the support problem (defensive spells are too reliable and so offensive stats and playstyles have reduced value)

Teridax681 votes

I absolutely love this idea. League suffers from a long-standing problem of compositional stagnancy, in large part because of how gold and experience mechanics have forced bot lane to feature a support and a marksman as part of a 1-1-1-2 comp, as no other combination is as effective. Giving supports the option to lane elsewhere, and thereby making the support class more independent of marksmen, could inject a tremendous amount of diversity into League, possibly more even than sweeping itemization or other systemic changes. I think it would also be very interesting to have more non-traditional compositions, such as a 2-1-2 comp focused on lane pressure, or potentially even a 1-3-1 mini-deathball comp, and I think the resulting variety in strategies could also help competitive play feel significantly less stale.

The one thing I think would need to be addressed in tandem with this, though, is 2v1 laning: currently 2v1 laning feels absolutely horrid for all parties involved, as the outnumbered side feels like they can't really lane properly, and the side with the numbers advantage ends up losing on lots of gold and XP. Gold sharing would remove that last part, allowing teams to outnumber each other in certain lanes, and thereby bully certain champions to the point where it's not fun, without as much of a localized tradeoff. Personally, what I think could help would be to bake mechanics into the outer turret to better protect the side with the numbers disadvantage: if the turret could sense a numbers imbalance, for example, and sent out some kind of AI helper to fight alongside the outnumbered champion(s), it could not only give the defender(s) more agency, but also help address them out better when getting tower dived by a group of opponents, or ganked at a time when ganking junglers are especially strong.

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