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Can we get a tanky version of Sightstone?

Embertine··4 votes·1,473 views

We have item 2045 which is pretty good on champions who scale with health and have a lot of active item usage.

We have item 2302 which is good on champion more focused on healing and buffing their ADC.

We have item 2301 which is good on champions that focus on poking the enemy ADC and Support down, mostly mages.

We have item 2303 which is good for champions who scale with health and are melee fighters.

But we don't have any that really help out champions whom scale with armor and magic resistance.

Yes item 2303 works well on Leona, but with all the percent health damage abilities in the game and those yet to come in the future, I don't get armor to back up that health early game and I still feel like I'm not tanking damage. This has and still is my only problem with Sightstone and other vision items, being that they aren't actually making me any tankier when there's abilities that deal a percentage of my current or maximum health to me as physical or magical damage. Without armor or magic resistance It just feels like I'm buffing up the damage that enemies are doing to me.

Now I know people are going to say, "Just build armor and magic resistance then!"

But here's the thing, early game I don't have armor and magic resistance if I'm building Sightstone or one of the other warding items. And with games lasting less then half an hour these days, I would be lucky to finish item 3047 item 3143 and item 3065 by the time the game ends if I rushed vision first.

So I would like a new vision item that gives some HP, Armor, and Magic Resistance. An all round item that's not too strong but gives tanks the stats they need to stay relevant at the 25 minute mark when they rush vision first.

Something like, 300 HP, 50 Armor, 50 Magic Resistance, would sit well with me. I don't know what other stats you could give it, besides some gold income.

Maybe have it build out of item 2049 + item 1031 + item 1057 and something else.

I don't know how it would effect gameplay all to much, besides allowing tank Supports to build vision without sacrificing Armor and Magic Resistance, But It's something I would like to see for us Support mains. Especially when we are often times the only tanks our teams have on the front lines.

29 Comments

Requiemsfire10 votes

If I remember correctly health is better than resistances early on( someone correct me if I'm wrong completely)

Embertine2 votes

Well item 2049 gives health, and once the item was finished you would have a decent amount.

ZephyrDrake5 votes

item 2303 is the tanky version of the sighstone, random armor and mr with little to no HP is just completely worthless

Embertine2 votes

How exactly is it tanky? It only gives 500 health, only 200 more then what I suggested.

Meanwhile what I suggested gives you the health, plus the Armor and Magic Resistance to back it up, reducing the damage your health is taking.

And 300 Health is not miniscule. item 3071 only has 300 health and bruiser and jaugernauts survive a lot of punishment with it. item 3748 only gives 450. There's plenty of low health items in the game that give even less, but they are still very useful items.

Big Lincoln2 votes

500 health is a great amount for such a cheap item

I don't see why you can't get plenty of resists from other items, either. item 2303 item 3068/ item 3742/item 3143 , item 3025 item 3190 item 3102 OR item 3512 item 3047 is a solid amount of HP and resists. Very durable build for someone like Leona, and you'll cap CDR too.

Embertine1 votes

The problem is that if I build visibility first I don't have the Armor or Magic Resist to counter enemy poking during laning phase. However if I build the Armor or Magic Resistance first I then don't have the visibility and have to focus my gold income on more tank stats to compensate for the enemy gaining more damage.

I want an item that gives me both in a reasonable amount at a reasonable cost, and can be built early game without sacrificing tankiness or visibility until mid or late game.

IcyPepper1 votes

There's plenty of low health items in the game that give even less, but they are still very useful items.

You mean like wards?

Dasdi963 votes

Actually health is better than resistances in terms of tanking because it also protects against true damage.

Embertine2 votes

Except when that true damage is based on a percentage of maximum or current health, then in either case you would still be dropping HP at the same rate for either 2k HP or 2.5k HP, as it's by percentage meaning the 500 extra health is increasing the amount of true damage being done.

Examples being,

2000 HP and you are hit by a 10% maximum health true damage attack. You would then have 1800 left without counting normal attack damage from the attack. Taking 200 damage.

2500 HP and being hit by a 10% maximum health true damage attack would drop you down to 2250 HP. Taking 250 damage.

In both cases it would take ten attacks to kill you. Meaning even if you had 500 more hp the 10% max health true damage would still kill you in the same number of attacks, and thus not actually provide you any real defense against true damage. The same can be said of current health true damage, the difference being the current health damage diminishes in value with the less HP you have remaining while max health damage does not.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

Except when that true damage is based on a percentage of maximum or current health, then in either case you would still be dropping HP at the same rate for either 2k HP or 2.5k HP, as it's by percentage meaning the 500 extra health is increasing the amount of true damage being done.

Examples being,

2000 HP and you are hit by a 10% maximum health true damage attack. You would then have 1800 left without counting normal attack damage from the attack. Taking 200 damage.

2500 HP and being hit by a 10% maximum health true damage attack would drop you down to 2250 HP. Taking 250 damage.

In both cases it would take ten attacks to kill you. Meaning even if you had 500 more hp the 10% max health true damage would still kill you in the same number of attacks, and thus not actually provide you any real defense against true damage. The same can be said of current health true damage, the difference being the current health damage diminishes in value with the less HP you have remaining while max health damage does not.

Try to logic for a moment. Even if you take 10% of your max HP from an attack, 60-90% of the damage in a game is still flat. So being left with a higher amount of HP is still better overall. Whereas there is also a % counter for resistances, in fact several.

ADC gets 7%+45% armor pen, perhaps some flat too. Black Cleaver reduces your armor by 30%. So -30% then -45% then -7%. Pretty devastating, a lot more crushing to defenses than ONE attack out of dozens being a %HP damage.

Linna Excel3 votes

Sightstones are meant for supports. I wouldn't mind a tank option though.

Embertine3 votes

Leona is a support, and a tank.

I primarily meant this for tanky Supports like Leona and Braum.

Sukishoo2 votes

item 3401 item 2045 forever XD

Maximum Morde2 votes

Could be interesting to see an upgrade built from glacial shroud, but it would probably kill off Eye of the Equinox.

Embertine2 votes

Well Face of the Mountain has the advantage of Giving minion gold to both the ADC and the Support when you have it. This item wouldn't do that so you would have to choose one or the other depending on your needs.

Maximum Morde2 votes

I actually ment it would kill off eye of the equinox. Edited.

Embertine2 votes

Oh well Eye of the Equinox still gives the minion kill gold so the trade off exists for it too I think.

Orinne2 votes

The item itself would have to compete with the health variants, and at the bare minimum, it would cost 2800g to make, where item 2045 only costs 1600.

You're pretty much asking for a noobtrap option that the only real way to reliably fit into a build is towards the late game, unless you really think being half an item down is worth the trouble of taking a few extra hits in a teamfight.

Embertine2 votes

The other vision item each cost 2200 gold. And the item I suggested only costs 2320 gold without combining cost, which I assume would be about 100 or 200 for a total cost of 2420-2520 gold. Over all the added Armor and Magic resistance would still be helpful.

Not only that, but it would actually take roughly the same amount of time to build as item 3065 visage which costs 2800 gold and has a combination cost of 800, and item 3068 which costs 2900 and has a combination cost of 1000 gold.

The item I suggested would actually be easier to build early game than either Spirit Visage or Sunfire, which are both strong defensive items.

Orinne1 votes

10 Armor, 10 MR, and 150 health, roughly ~830g worth of stats, for 100 or 200 gold? Lol, no. The sightstone items are 75-85% gold efficient with just their stats with item 2049 being 50% efficient without its active. You're recommending a similar item that's 107-111% gold efficient.

Embertine1 votes

Well tuning the number could be in order. And doesn't that say something about the other items only being 75-85% gold efficient?

I remember item 3078 having a combining cost of 73 gold or something at one time.

Orinne1 votes

Yes, that says that even though the sightstone items aren't gold efficient statwise, the value they give in vision more than makes up for that. It doesn't mean that they should be buffed to ~100% efficiency to justify your hypothetical item.

item 3078 used to have a combine cost of 3g. It was also a ludicrously expensive item that was rarely bought before the combine cost got brought down, and you didn't actually get additional stats for combining, aside from the sheen passive proc being stronger. Note that with several items, the combine cost is pretty much there as a gate to combine your basic items together to get a new active effect, with minor boosts to the stats the items gave. If you're getting 800g+ in stats for combining, you can expect to be paying around that much for the combine cost.

With that said, for your item to be a justified buy, the recipe would need to be item 1029 + item 1033 and it'd have to give about 200 hp, 20 armor, 20 mr, just to compete with with the other sightstone items on pricing and gold efficiency. Obviously, the stat boosts seem minuscule now when they're brought down that low, but that's largely because no item actually gives health, armor, and MR in a single slot; it'll either be horribly expensive or each individual stat becomes too weak to really justify purchasing it.

Vallalan2 votes

people currently underrate ruby sightstone. its VERy cost efficient. which is what supports need. not late game items.

going from just sighstone it is a 350 health increase for only 800 more gold.

for perspective giant's belt costs 1000 gold and gives 380 health only as well.

not to mention when you upgrade ruby sightstone, it gives one more ward and the active item reduction passive.

Embertine3 votes

I know that Ruby Sightstone is a good item, but my problem is that I don't get the tank stats I need early game unless I put off vision items until later, in which case I then get flamed or the enemy team has built up damage making me need more tank stats.

I thought of this items to fix that problem, by allowing me to get tank stats early game, without putting off vision, and making it so i still get vision and tankiness without sacrificing one or the other for it when I need both at the same time.

JosephAngelo2 votes

You make a great point about the value of face of the mountain depreciating with the vastly increased amount of percent health damage being implemented in the game. I think a sighstone item that gives 300 hp, 50 armor and magic resist would be the best item in the game but I like your proposal.

Reikken1 votes

"can we get a tanky version of the item with 500 health?"

WhiperSnapers1 votes

hp by itself isnt what makes a tank

Reikken1 votes

{quoted}

hp by itself isnt what makes a tank

No single 1600 gold purchase can make someone a tank. But sightstone is literally nothing but utility + defense. There is nothing you can do to make it more of a tank purchase. (barring giving it a third tier, letting ruby sightstone upgrade into a full cost item.)

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