@Riot: The Stealth System - Have you considered Heroes of the Storm's method?

Daen··3 votes·3,833 views

As we know, the League of Legends implementation of stealth is incredibly binary; champions utilizing stealth are either exactly like normal or literally impossible to see, depending on the situation. This harshly limits the stealth systems that are available, and makes certain things like Shaco's Deceive very frustrating in some scenarios but worthless in others. The implementation also has the added side effect of making champions with stealth notoriously hard to balance (see: Evelynn), and ends up being annoying both for the player and the enemy.

Heroes of the Storm, by contrast, utilizes a partial visibility system for stealth. Here's a screenshot, the stealthed champion (hero) is in the red oval:

http://i1.2pcdn.com/node14/image/article/201405/15/20140515051538a0dsb5vzvrk3m05v.jpg

Do you see the slight visual disturbance there, kind of like a heat wave? It's tough to see when the champion (hero) is standing still, but it becomes a bit easier when the character is moving. It still isn'teasy to see, but it has the unique characteristic of simultaneously being hard to notice if focusing on other things and possible to spot out of the corner of your eye if you're being particularly vigilant.

Theoretically, this would provide an avenue of counterplay to the more abusive stealth scenarios (Evelynn being a mobile ward back in the day, Shaco ganks on a blank lane, etc.) while retaining the strengths of stealth in the scenarios where it's actually interesting. Evelynn, for those that don't know, used to be permanently stealthed until she used an ability. She could just follow champions around in the jungle without them ever knowing, and her team could destroy them without her ever even being noticed. If the HotS system were implemented at that time, it would be pretty obvious that a shimmering heat mirage is following you around; you could play around it.

In the same vein, a Shaco gank would be equally potent when people aren't paying attention or when Shaco does so particularly well, but far less overbearing in situations where there's nothing around and he just appears next to you to kill you. It would be possible to see him coming and react, but still very difficult unless you are expecting it.


I'm curious, what do you guys think?

19 Comments

Raptamei6 votes

Let's reward players for playing in a darkened room and punish them for playing in sunlight.

-1

Martyrofsand3 votes

{quoted}

Let's reward players for playing in a darkened room and punish them for playing in sunlight.

-1

Um that doesn't really impact all that much. Hell I've been playing Starcraft and Brood war since their release with my CPU always in a room with a window with no blinds and I still had no problem seeing this kind of blur on the screen back then, if you didn't know that is where this kind of stealth came from.

Even now it isn't really that hard to see it once you spend a little time to train your eye to notice it, chances are by the time you hit level 5-10 in HoTS you would be accustomed to it and have no problems finding them.

Kamai4 votes

I'm pretty sure Riot considered this, and realized that in the same way you can modify your (and others) champion appearance in-game through outside methods, like custom skins, that the invisibility could also be masked to say rainbows and flowers. It's at least an interesting problem they'd need to get around since they don't want to take out custom skins (at least when this was discussed before).

Daen2 votes

I'm curious as to how this works, from a techjnical perspective. Theoretically speaking, wouldn't this essentially be replacing an invisible texture with a mostly invisible texture? If there's a way it could be abused I can definitely see the issue, but what is stopping players from modifying the appearance of invisible champions currently?

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

I'm curious as to how this works, from a techjnical perspective. Theoretically speaking, wouldn't this essentially be replacing an invisible texture with a mostly invisible texture? If there's a way it could be abused I can definitely see the issue, but what is stopping players from modifying the appearance of invisible champions currently?

Because currently invisible champions use their normal model, only mostly transparent (for them and their team) or fully transparent (for the enemy team). Changing the model or appearance of the champion doesn't matter when the champion itself is 100% transparent.

Matthias91193 votes

A champion that is out of your sight is just not there for your local client. It's not that Riot is doing something to the model, it's that your local client doesn't know where they are at all. So there's nothing to havk or modify.

I know that other games with "predator-style" stealth have had hacks to see through it or highlight the stealthed player.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

{quoted}

A champion that is out of your sight is just not there for your local client. It's not that Riot is doing something to the model, it's that your local client doesn't know where they are at all. So there's nothing to havk or modify.

I know that other games with "predator-style" stealth have had hacks to see through it or highlight the stealthed player.

Neat, didn't know that.

Daen1 votes

How do skillshots and AoE damage interact in that scenario? It has to be tracking the movement somehow, is that just all done server side and if the calculation matches a certain set of variables the champion reappears?

Matthias91191 votes

I should clarify that I don't know they do it that way, but it appears to work like that.

Riot has said that all the damage/collision stuff is done server-side. I would assume the server decides the visibility state between each pair of players each time it updates the game world, and only sends you exact position data on the players you currently have vision on.

The5lacker2 votes

...The hell are you even talking about? You don't laying in an "invisible" texture over the model in place of the normal texture. Are you high? You layer an shimmering particle over the space the model is, attached to the model's skeleton so that it follows its movement but doesn't eat up tons of resources.

Don't speak against something if you don't know how it works. You're like those Republicans on the Senate Technology Committee who go "Yeah I really don't know how all these newfangled computers work."

Zarxis3 votes

This would ruin stealth. More skilled players would learn to notice the false invisibility almost immediately, while less skilled players would remain fairly vulnerable. Currently, more skilled players simply learn to prepare for early invisibility ganks (and buy pink wards as soon as it is reasonable). Nearly all players eventually have at least one item 3364 on their team by mid-late game.

If partial invisibility was used to replace stealth in all its forms, pink wards would no longer be necessary for better players, which means that stealth champions would become even more infamous for pubstomping lower elos while also being practically useless in higher elos.

It might be possible to try partial invisibility on a new champion, but I think we should stick with the traditional full-invisibility stealth mechanic. It's an invaluable tool to champions that have it, and it's not impossible for players that are against a stealthy champion to work around.

3tyson2 votes

item 2043 item 2043 item 2043 i love my lol stealth champs i play Shaco jungle Twitch jungle and Teemo top even do teemo is allot different than shaco and twitch i think the whole point of a stealth champion is supose to do some sneaky ass stuf right

Daen2 votes

Shaco is one of my favorite champions in the game; believe me, I wouldn't be suggesting this if I thought it would ruin him.

the whole point of a stealth champion is supose to do some sneaky ass stuf right

I absolutely agree, but let's think about it a different way. In a game that normally relies on stealth or has particularly well-developed stealth mechanics, what sort of playstyle does the player need to adopt? Can the player just walk around in broad daylight murdering people, or do they need to consciously think about their positioning advantage and distracting the enemy so they can slip around?

I'm not saying stealth is bad; far from it. I'm saying that situational complete inability to perceive a champion's presence might not be the optimal way to approach stealth.

3tyson1 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is one of my favorite champions in the game; believe me, I wouldn't be suggesting this if I thought it would ruin him.

I absolutely agree, but let's think about it a different way. In a game that normally relies on stealth or has particularly well-developed stealth mechanics, what sort of playstyle does the player need to adopt? Can the player just walk around in broad daylight murdering people, or do they need to consciously think about their positioning advantage and distracting the enemy so they can slip around?

I'm not saying stealth is bad; far from it. I'm saying that situational complete inability to perceive a champion's presence might not be the optimal way to approach stealth.

I dont feel like shaco can walk around blindly murdering pekple also if your having problems with shaco its best to place a pink ward in your lane...

Dreddeth1 votes

Yeah, let's solve the problem of situational invisibility by giving all stealth champs the ability to be completely invisible at all times to anyone sufficiently distracted, and completely useless against anyone sufficiently focused.

Feast or Famine bullshit like that should never be implemented on a champion level. Besides, if the Fog of War is fair, then so is the current stealth and anti-stealth system. You act like pink wards don't exist, and as for bringing up Evelynn's former ability as a point, well, that's no longer a problem, so your point's no longer valid.

Daen1 votes

Yeah, let's solve the problem of situational invisibility by giving all stealth champs the ability to be completely invisible at all times to anyone sufficiently distracted

...wat.

No. The theory here is that it would apply only to current stealth mechanics. Shaco would function exactly as normal but with a slight shimmer when he uses Deceive, Evelynn would have a slight shimmer when walking around stealthed, etc.

I'm not proposing that every stealth champion just be stealthed all the time, that's ridiculous.

Dreddeth2 votes

That still makes stealth useless against anyone sufficiently focused. If I'm going to play one of the five or so stealth champs out there, I'm going to want to provide value to my team, not be seen coming from half a map away because of some stupid Predator Shimmer when nobody even bought a pink ward.

Dreddeth1 votes

Left like that, HotS's stealth champions won't be viable for long, seeing as their kits are balanced around a mechanic that doesn't actually work against more experienced players.

8yVkmwxq0D1 votes

I think for real stealth (Shaco, Twitch), there should be no shimmer.

I think for Eve, when she's not within her current reveal range, she should have no shimmer, but when she gets within that range, she should no longer be visible, but gain that shimmer so if people are paying attention they would notice she's there. When she is shimmered, she can't be targeted, but you can use AOE on her or use a ward.

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