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How Community Managers can fit into Riot's culture

Daen··20 votes·8,347 views

Hi everyone,

This is going to be pretty long. Sorry. There's a TLDR at the bottom though, so...yay?

Riot's concept of "Killing the Community Manager" has been on my mind a lot lately, especially after this panel at PAX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbcS_h9kgPw

Everything that's discussed and the entire mentality behind the idea is awesome, but I can't help feeling like something is...missing.

#"Standard" Community Manager duties:

  • Act as an intermediary between players and developers
  • Facilitate player-to-player interaction
  • Ensure mutual trust between players and developers
  • Manage forums and other avenues of communication
  • Create initiatives with and for the playerbase

#Riot's perspective on the idea of Community Management

The goal is to remove Community Managers from the equation and empower Rioters to have direct conversation with the players. There are three central pillars that help facilitate this:

Engage - Hold two-way dialogue with players

  • Everyone at Riot is empowered to speak directly with players
  • Ideally, the reasoning behind decisions is explained and discussed
  • Host Q&As, AMAs, Dev Blogs, etc.
  • Help foster trust with the playerbase
  • Ensure that Rioters have authentic passion and meaningful dialogue
  • Understand the player perspective
  • Don't break news
  • Speak within your expertise and craft
  • If unsure of what to say, find someone who can help

Connect - Facilitate player-to-player interaction

  • Prize Events, such as tournaments
  • Viewing Parties
  • Player Behavior & Justice (Team Builder, Honor System, etc.)
  • Collegiate Program

Support - Support the playerbase in the awesome things they do

  • Noticing & promoting fan content through social media
  • Cospitality Lounge to allow cosplayers to deal with difficulties
  • The Riot API - Supporting developers and facilitating creation
  • Developer forums, for discussions about API creations
  • Q&A with Riot to help players level up their apps
  • Guidelines & Documentation for efficient learning

The Community Manager has been killed in order to empower Rioters to build a direct relationship with the playerbase, help players meet each other, and to support all the cool things the community does.

#What I feel is missing

Let's reiterate the 5 "standard" Community Manager duties:

  • Act as an intermediary between players and developers

This is not something Riot wants. The idea of having someone (or a group of people) be the face of Riot is totally against the culture, and I absolutely agree with that. Empowering everyone at the company to interact in their own way is immensely powerful and shouldn't be tampered with.

What if, instead of CMs functioning as the face of Riot, their role is to condense and relay information to and/or from developers? Instead of CMs handling a thread themselves, what if the goal is to find threads with value and try to find someone to discuss it meaningfully with the players? As an example, let's say someone makes a thread suggesting a really insightful and completely unique improvement to the Honor system but it gets buried. Is it ideal for developers to spend time digging through countless threads looking for a topic on which they can confidently speak?

In this situation, Community Managers would not eclipse other developers or act as a barrier of communication between players and Riot. They would merely be streamlining the process and enhancing interaction between players and Rioters, as discussion could become more focused on what really matters. Rioters would still be empowered to individually connect with players exactly as before, but the process would be easier and more efficient.

  • Facilitate player-to-player interaction

This is something Riot does through the Connect pillar above. I do, however, feel this can (and needs to) be expanded. A lot of the work that the Community team does tends to encourage new or fragmented communities rather than solidifying the playerbase as a whole, but there is so much potential in wider scope/lower impact projects.

Examples like viewing parties, college LoL clubs, prize events, cospitality, etc. all support this claim. These initiatives are fantastic and make the experience so much better for those players, but they don't necessarily affect the playerbase as a whole. Honor and Team Builder affect a significantly larger audience, but they don't really enhance players' ability to connect in meaningful ways.

  • Ensure mutual trust between players and developers

This has gotten better recently, but there is definitely room for improvement. It can be difficult for developers to have time to speak deeply on what they are working on, and certain information is hard to present effectively while continuing to work on projects.

An example of this could be a perpetually updated Change Log and/or Known Bugs list for the Boards. These are fantastic resources for the benefit of the community, but realistically speaking developers might not have time to write and maintain them while simultaneously creating the content that would be shown.

  • Manage forums and other avenues of communication

This duty is still present, and as far as I'm aware it's done by the Community department as a whole. The Boards is a great example of this, and there is clearly active work being done on the platform.

  • Create initiatives with and for the playerbase

This, in my opinion, is the most significant thing that's missing. What I'm referring to with this role is essentially things like Ionia vs Noxus, the Iron Solari forum event stuff, helping players create and advertise custom game modes, supporting and encouraging player volunteer groups, etc.

I'm not sure if this is a cultural no-no at Riot, but as far as I can tell it's kind of avoided. The reasoning for not participating in this kind of interaction at Riot is, in my opinion, thus: if Riot creates something cool for the community, it could take away from things the community creates for itself. This is a valid concern, and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

#How Community Managers can be awesome at Riot

Community Managers, as they are currently thought of in the industry, can't work at Riot. The idea of having a divide between players and developers with CMs bridging the gap is definitely unacceptable, but a tailored Community Manager position could fit perfectly into Riot's culture. Here are the duties I see Riot Community Managers having:

  • Streamline communication between players and Rioters
  • Seek out important discussions and make sure they are addressed when appropriate
  • Bring content that is specifically relevant to specific Rioters or teams to them
  • Facilitate wide-scope player-to-player interaction
  • Work on projects meant to focus on the entire community's communication
    • Leagues as a social tool
    • Robust chat rooms to allow players to create meaningful relationships
    • Guide and focus discussion within threads
  • Produce and maintain resources to assist developers with communication
  • Relieve developers of the task of maintaining official correspondence
    • Known Bugs (Boards)
    • Change Logs (Boards)
  • Keep track of & record players' suggestions and concerns
  • Create and support player initiatives in the community as a whole
  • Organize "official" events for players to participate in
    • Ionia vs Noxus
    • Forum events & competitions
    • Amateur publicly-announced tournaments
  • Set up a framework for players' contributions outside of art to shine
    • Volunteer Groups
    • Showing off cool articles and community website content
    • Publicly supporting custom game modes such as Catch the Teemo

#TL:DR

The idea of re-envisioning the Community Manager is awesome; having that barrier between the players and the developers doesn't really make sense, especially for a company like Riot. That being said, I think that trying to move all the duties a CM would normally have to every Rioter loses something in the transition.

Many of the duties listed above are difficult to successfully accomplish while having a separate job to do (e.g. Ghostcrawler & Game Design), especially creating content for players to interact with and organizing events. In order for these things to happen in a meaningful way, it's important that there is a dedicated position to allow Rioters to really focus on the community as a whole.

So many Rioters are all about communication, which is fantastic, but without people whose job is entirely "here is a community, do awesome things with it", there is a lot of lost potential.

EDIT: Would those that are saying Community Managers are bad mind elaborating upon that opinion? I would love to know why you feel that way and discuss whether I was unclear or incorrect about my assumptions!

37 Comments

RiotPWYFF9 votes

Since Sargonas didn't talk much about the philosophies presented here, I'll do some deeper tackling:

At the end of the day, your point seems to be we need more people who can interact with - and organize - the community to effectively build it from the ground up.

Roughly speaking, I agree but I'll toss in some thoughts so you can see what's behind the curtain. Since I work primarily in communications management and how we can improve the way we talk to players, most of my points will be on that.

--- What is good engagement?

Up front: I believe there's a lot of tribal knowledge when it comes to 'good' community management / engagement, and I'm unsure how much of what's done is actually the best thing. That's my personal opinion though!

One of the biggest concepts we deal with on the day to day is the idea of scale and how to build meaningful interactions in a way that scales effectively. If you've ever chatted with me at a convention, I spend a lot of time musing on this concept, so sorry if you've heard this: we have so many passionate players who are passionate about so many things they can create self-perpetuating reality bubbles around what's really fraction of a fraction of the community.

To me, personal and engaging conversations are fantastic but I'm always wondering exactly how to scale them effectively. I was just a player at the time, but during League's alpha / beta days, I remember we could hop into a regularly scheduled ventrilo chatroom to talk about how what things were frustrating or broken at the time. That left me with a fantastic impression of both Riot and their player-focused design philosophy but, reasonably speaking, how scalable is that system?

Going off what I said earlier about self-perpetuating bubbles, it's tough to prioritize work on specific player needs when conversations hit such a critical mass that gauging concepts by passionate conversations means everything is a priority. In other words, once a conversation reaches more than a few hundred participants, it becomes A Very Big Deal to those players, and League has enough passionate players that this means every issue is now A Very Big Deal.

I hope that made sense.

Is there a more effective way to distill feedback? Are there more effective ways to create engaging conversations where developers and players can actually come to an agreement without getting derailed into a hyperbole competition? It's really tough, especially given that many discussions turn into who can shout the loudest or bring the most people to the table.

We do have piles of Rioters who engage / read the forums on a daily basis, but the conversation itself needs to come from the individual and having someone deliver "conversations" to a doorstep might just transform into 20+ hours of work a week just talking. Maybe that's not a bad thing and we just need to double our workforce, but maintaining an engaging conversation is a very difficult task. A conversation isn't a "HERE'S A RESPONSE AND I'M OUT" kind of deal - it requires empathy and nuance, even if the answer is clear (which, honestly speaking, can be the case a lot of times).

That's what our core focus is on right now: what's a scalable, healthy way to build awesome communication channels that don't burn out our communicators while also letting players feel heard? Maybe that means limiting the communication expectation but ensuring that it's constant. Something like twitter where you can't go in-depth but quick answers can be constantly fired out at all times. Maybe it's long-form like the forums. It's a big consideration point.

Second consideration point: international scale. We have many, many, many, players who don't speak english as a primary or secondary language, and we want to build those communities just as much as we do in english. Most of Riot's central development just happens to speak english (although a few speak german / chinese / korean / etc).

I just ran out of space, so I'm going to reply to myself with that one.

RiotPWYFF7 votes

Okay second and third thing:

--- Social Platforms

We have a few teams specifically focused on increasing player-to-player interactions in meaningful ways. A lot of those developments, however, do take time just because we have to understand the sheer platform demand some of these tools can create. Not only is there player load to consider, but even the throttling of player experiences is important when you consider it. Sitting in a chat room with 1,000 players might be managable and you might get a real chat out of it, but if you get dumped into a sea of 100,000 players then nothing good will come of that.

I'm not saying I have much visibility into any of these projects (I honestly don't), but I'm just imagining the difficutlies of creating meaningful social interactions through tools once you hit a certain critical mass. It must be an interesting challenge.

--- We're kind of doing what you're asking for

I'm just stream of consciousness writing here, but looking over your "How Community Managers can be awesome at Riot" section, I'm coming to realize that we're doing a lot of what you're looking for, but we're looking at how to do it in a scalable and strategically intelligent way. Some of these things might seem easy to solve with a "HIRE SOMEONE AND GO DO IT" attitude but it leads to a lot of weird expectation setting when/if that plan becomes unsustainable. If we said "VENTRILO FEEDBACK SESSIONS EVERY WEEK" and then crashed and burned after a few months, I wonder if we seem irresponsible or lazy.

Then there's the argument that maybe we should do everything and then change it as we figure out more scalable solutions, but finding the right candidates is difficult in and of itself (incidentally if anyone has studied communications / journalism / the like and loves to think about this space, bbbbbam: http://www.riotgames.com/careers/player-relations-specialist), and I wonder if they'd be more effectively used thinking about higher level stuff...

Alright I'm getting way off the rails. It's a complicated space and you raise some interesting points but I just wanted to hit you over the head with some philosophy for no reason. I have done so.

Daen1 votes

Hey there Pwyff,

Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed response! I'm going to address things you mentioned from both posts here (space permitting) if that's OK. :)

At the end of the day, your point seems to be we need more people who can interact with - and organize - the community to effectively build it from the ground up.

It occurs to me the OP didn't very clearly outline the concept I consider most important. The main thing I'm trying to dig at with this thread is not necessarily talking with players; it's doing and creating things with players that I'm most passionate about. Open communication channels are incredibly important, but some of the most meaningful and amazing things that happen are born through doing cool things rather than talking about cool things.

I believe there's a lot of tribal knowledge when it comes to 'good' community management / engagement, and I'm unsure how much of what's done is actually the best thing.

I 100% agree. There are a ton of different schools of thought on what community management is "supposed to be", and even within those schools there are a bunch of nuances that are really important to consider. I think many people build their opinions off of the experiences they have, and it's part of what makes this community so damn awesome. Everyone has a different set of experiences, and different things work for different people.

we have so many passionate players who are passionate about so many things they can create self-perpetuating reality bubbles around what's really fraction of a fraction of the community.

shifty eyes

it's tough to prioritize work on specific player needs when conversations hit such a critical mass that gauging concepts by passionate conversations means everything is a priority. In other words, once a conversation reaches more than a few hundred participants, it becomes A Very Big Deal to those players, and League has enough passionate players that this means every issue is now A Very Big Deal.

Makes sense. Is there a particular point to this statement, however? It is absolutely more difficult to handle interaction when everything you do is A Very Big Deal, but how does that affect how Riot approaches the concept?

Is there a more effective way to distill feedback? Are there more effective ways to create engaging conversations where developers and players can actually come to an agreement without getting derailed into a hyperbole competition? It's really tough, especially given that many discussions turn into who can shout the loudest or bring the most people to the table.

My personal opinion is that this hinges on trust and allowing oneself to accept the fact that there will always be a very vocal minority (still easily thousands of people with the size of the community) setting themselves against anything that's discussed. I very rarely see discussions on the Boards with the issues you mentioned, and a lot of this is due to an atmosphere of mutual respect and (hopefully) trust. Obviously the community is also significantly smaller, but still.

A conversation isn't a "HERE'S A RESPONSE AND I'M OUT" kind of deal - it requires empathy and nuance

This is definitely true. You can't have conversation with a single response; it's something of a commitment, especially when your role in the conversation is to be someone whose opinion is trusted and whose knowledge is sought after.

incidentally if anyone has studied communications / journalism / the like and loves to think about this space, bbbbbam: http://www.riotgames.com/careers/player-relations-specialist ), and I wonder if they'd be more effectively used thinking about higher level stuff...

I presume you are specifically looking for people that have studied communications/journalism or have done it professionally rather than recreationally?

RiotPWYFF5 votes

It occurs to me the OP didn't very clearly outline the concept I consider most important. The main thing I'm trying to dig at with this thread is not necessarily talking with players; it's doing and creating things with players that I'm most passionate about. Open communication channels are incredibly important, but some of the most meaningful and amazing things that happen are born through doing cool things rather than talking about cool things.

Valid! And when it comes to supporting / promoting this kind of stuff, I think we want to start trusting local Riot teams to do crazy things in the community. That said... I wonder if it's really possible to do it at such a grassroots level? What if tools were developed rather than simply reinforcing the manual dependency?

I 100% agree. There are a ton of different schools of thought on what community management is "supposed to be", and even within those schools there are a bunch of nuances that are really important to consider. I think many people build their opinions off of the experiences they have, and it's part of what makes this community so damn awesome. Everyone has a different set of experiences, and different things work for different people.

Yarp. I think the key thing I wanted to highlight here is the fact that we need to trust people to make awesome decisions, and sometimes those tribal knowledge assumptions just don't work out. Maybe we should be more transparent about why don't pursue some things over others, but taking a "we're not X" stance as opposed to a "we aspire to do X" is a very different thing.

Makes sense. Is there a particular point to this statement, however? It is absolutely more difficult to handle interaction when everything you do is A Very Big Deal, but how does that affect how Riot approaches the concept?

It comes to expectation management more than anything. When everything is a Very Big Deal, players can feel like their own Very Big Deals are ignored in favor of other Very Big Deals, so it becomes this whole grass is greener on the other side shtick. In smaller communities, the expectation is different - Very Big Deals are rare and dealt with, while small problems that get engaged with are assumed to be just that - small problems. Talk to a forum lurker and they might believe melee champions are the worst things in the world if we were to go by certain GD discussion threads. This opinion (I won't debate if it's false or not) just perpetuates itself by that kind of perception bubble.

Personally speaking, I'm trying to think of ways to objectively gauge the 'severity' of an issue and just how widespread it really is rather than basing it off a single reddit thread or a very active GD thread (who we've seen can be puffed up to insane proportions via smurf accounts. We checked.)

My personal opinion is that this hinges on trust and allowing oneself to accept the fact that there will always be a very vocal minority (still easily thousands of people with the size of the community) setting themselves against anything that's discussed. I very rarely see discussions on the Boards with the issues you mentioned, and a lot of this is due to an atmosphere of mutual respect and (hopefully) trust. Obviously the community is also significantly smaller, but still.

I wouldn't discount the significantly smaller community as a small reason. It may very well be the reason we can have reasonable discourse for now. But probably not, given the voting algorithms too.

This is definitely true. You can't have conversation with a single response; it's something of a commitment, especially when your role in the conversation is to be someone whose opinion is trusted and whose knowledge is sought after.

And this engagement is tough to build ad-hoc and currently even harder to scale internationally. That's our focus right now!

smitske1 votes

You put down the poor communication that happens internationally as hard because of the many languages, yet your English community management internationally (aka other communities than NA) is also very disappointing, as well as the quality of the CM who most of the time are just clowning arround, which doesnt help an already damaged reputation for poor community management of other regions.

In another post you say regional parity is important, I have been playing this game for quite a while, if anything has been clear in that time its the exact opposite.

Daen1 votes

I wonder if it's really possible to do it at such a grassroots level? What if tools were developed rather than simply reinforcing the manual dependency?

Regardless of the tools, grassroots community involvement is important. It's a bit tricky with a community that's 70 million people strong, but that sort of deep involvement is a big part of creating/maintaining trust (imo).

Maybe we should be more transparent about why don't pursue some things over others

This would definitely be helpful, yes. As an example, why have volunteer groups remained unsupported for at least two years (other than Wrenchmen/Huntsmen)? A while back I did some research and interviewed players in the volunteer programs, and almost unanimously the opinion was "we used to be useful but Riot hasn't supported us lately". I'm sure there are reasons internally, but is there any particular reason those...reasons (i r good at engrish) haven't been communicated externally?

When everything is a Very Big Deal, players can feel like their own Very Big Deals are ignored in favor of other Very Big Deals. In small communities, Very Big Deals are rare and dealt with, while small problems that get engaged with are assumed to be just that - small problems.

Gotcha. I don't have experience dealing with massive communities like League of Legends, the largest communities I've managed have been maybe a thousand people. That being said, my personal opinion here is that people's individual VBDs can become smaller when put into perspective or when addressed in some way. There will always be players who will stick by their VBDs through everything, but usually people tend to chill out a bit when provided with information.

The recent lore announcements and discussion are actually a *good *example of this. Players have been in the dark about LoL lore for at least three years, so it's understandable that there has been some uproar (PARTICULARLY since it's a radical change to the entire framework of the storyline). However, amidst the uproar there have been many people that are just glad their VBD has been addressed. Did it take too long? Absolutely. Are people annoyed at the direction and the time it took? Absolutely. Are people happy that information has finally been provided, despite the fact it might not be what they were hoping for? Absolutely.

Hopefully yes because that guarantees a certain degree of understanding of the space we're working in. I'm also looking to individuals who are extremely articulate and understand the problem space regardless. I'd love to hire people who at least know how to chase down those answers.

I see. The seeking of professional experience kind of rules me out for that, though thank you for the answer!

Trinityunicorn1 votes

Hi Daen,

So glad you opened this thread and brought forth your ideas!

The recent lore announcements and discussion are actually a good example of this. Players have been in the dark about LoL lore for at least three years, so it's understandable that there has been some uproar (PARTICULARLY since it's a radical change to the entire framework of the storyline). However, amidst the uproar there have been many people that are just glad their VBD has been addressed. Did it take too long? Absolutely. Are people annoyed at the direction and the time it took? Absolutely. Are people happy that information has finally been provided, despite the fact it might not be what they were hoping for? Absolutely.

To me from what I'm sensing is that concerning lore there is a bigger problem and this is just the reason it is surfacing. It all ties into the communications also. Its theory crafting but still there may be some validity to what I have to say about it.

Annoyance has been increased by the way it was released. <and other ideas also>

The surprise element and the shock value of releasing new innovations into the game have gone pretty well on a whole, but the reworks and the maintenance of things have been more misses than hits it seems. I think this is because its thrown out there without any possibilities of player interaction. With the idea already progressed to almost completion the player is left without an opportunity to input the direction. The change feels forced upon them and rather insulting when there are so many good ideas that can't even be considered.

The players can't run the company and shouldn't be allowed to, but they do want a say in how some things that affect them are formulated. I think this is the disconnect between the designers and the players.

Are people happy that information has finally been provided, despite the fact it might not be what they were hoping for? Absolutely.

In some ways I'd disagree about this. I don't see lore as being as much of a long standing problem that was a dominating problem. Yes there was some dissatisfaction, but I don't see that as making or breaking whether a player stays to play the game or not. I do see the way it was done is a factor in whether a player continues to stay and play. The outrage even affects me a bit and I'm not big on lore. I have along the way enjoyed the weaving in and out of the champions and their relationships. For instance Soraka and Warwick or the introduction of Vi and her connection with Caitlyn.....etc. However those aren't the reasons that I'll pick a particular champion to play.

I'm going to make an analogy, hopefully it will make sense. In my former job, managers would go to multiple meetings and have discussions. Top management would bring or lay out an idea and a plan and basically tell its employees to go and implement it. What happens next is, the problems start arising and the management doesn't want to hear it. What happens to the ones actually doing the work is that they are kind of forced to find ways of making an idea that doesn't work well work. From the employee standpoint, a great many of the problem could have been addressed and fixed or at least given some thought before implementation bypassing many of the broken processes. The biggest problem is that the people actually doing the work were not consulted in anyway, the frustration and friction was huge. It sort of created an us and them attitude also.

I think the principle of making huge changes without any player feedback preceding the announcement on the matter just creates a shock and an outrage. The communication is one way.......down line. The up line feedback was horrid and often they would bring in outside parties to give their opinions on what needed to be done.........again ignoring the actually people that were doing the work.

Daen2 votes

With the idea already progressed to almost completion the player is left without an opportunity to input the direction. The change feels forced upon them and rather insulting when there are so many good ideas that can't even be considered.

This is a very good point. It essentially removes even the illusion of control from the player.

I don't see lore as being as much of a long standing problem that was a dominating problem. Yes there was some dissatisfaction, but I don't see that as making or breaking whether a player stays to play the game or not.

I agree with you here, but many people that don't necessarily care deeply about the lore (myself included) were bothered by the silence because it was silence. There has pretty much always been a reasonably significant portion of the playerbase that enjoys lore, and it was rather questionable how that portion was pretty much blown off until recently.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

I'm glad you picked up on that because I see it as an approach that Riot has used repeatedly that is getting in the way of their player relations. It seems to upset a lot of apple carts and what disturbs me about it is that its starting to stack up. Just like repeated reports stack up on player accounts, the repetitious approach in many areas is affecting a large portion of player relations. That's a lot of trust flying out the window.

You're bothered by the silence, I'm bothered by the way it was released I guess.

Its not a priority because its not the cutting edge of development but a maintaining of what is already developed. Less attention focused there, less weight; yet it is a major part of the player/developer relationship.

I had a discussion with someone once who said "This world is about maintenance." Which seems odd to say, but if you think about it, there is nothing that doesn't decay and doesn't need maintenance. Its one of those existential conditions I suppose. The list is seemingly endless.....the body, the building, the car, you can even include relationships.

In a different time, customer satisfaction was a paramount business practice, I think that has changed. Social media and computers have changed our world also.

Song running through my head, "Its in the way that you use it" by Eric Clapton. It reminds me that the intent that we have determines the ethics of a thing be it a gun which can be used to provide sustenance and life by providing food or can be used to take a life in anger. That gun is really neutral it doesn't do anything until someone with intent uses it.

it was rather questionable how that portion was pretty much blown off until recently.

in·dif·fer·ence: lack of interest, concern, or sympathy, unimportance

Just read an article on how indifference can kill a relationship. Its focused towards two people but there is also a relationship between Riot and its player base. Maybe that has something to do with the outrage/outbursts too.

All that being said, I wouldn't suppose that there is a behavior that would fix things as much as an attitude adjustment might be what is needed.

How all this ties back into the need for community managers....it all boils down to whether or not they care about that close knit player relationship enough to send people with a smaller community focus. As the growth and vision shifts to global communities and global objectives, does the maintenance of the individual player relationship still have importance?

Daen1 votes

Just read an article on how indifference can kill a relationship. Its focused towards two people but there is also a relationship between Riot and its player base. Maybe that has something to do with the outrage/outbursts too.

I don't believe Riot is indifferent. I've spoken with many Rioters about the community and obviously the panel and such, and it is very clear that Riot truly cares about the community.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

Well you have experience to back up your claim, so I believe you when you say that. Most of us don't have THAT experience but we have other experiences to draw upon. Pwffy had an experience that left lasting impression on him. Rauron also has experience with Riot.

Do you feel like the general community has the same feelings as you?

Daen1 votes

Do you feel like the general community has the same feelings as you?

I think it's hard to interpret the general community's feelings without access to Riot's data. General Discussion (and the forums in general) is a very small subset of the overall playerbase, and it tends to encourage the vocal minority as opposed to those that don't have strong feelings either way.

That being said, I feel that there is still a disconnect between Riot's thoughts and feelings and how they present them. A good way to think of it is the general timeline of trust:

  1. Active Listening - Initiating the relationship
  2. Empathy - Understanding the other party
  3. Rapport - Close relationship is being established
  4. Trust/Influence - Close relationship is solidified

Riot does really well with the first two, but Rapport is the one that I feel is the limiter here. Empathy is all about Riot understanding the community, Rapport is when the community feels it back. I think it's pretty clear that the community isn't necessarily feeling it, but that doesn't mean Riot isn't actively listening to and empathizing with us.

That being said it's getting significantly better, particularly in the design space. There have been a lot of new initiatives meant to explain design decisions recently, between the Live Gameplay Forecasts and the AMAs.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

While we all have different feelings about the situation, I take it you're telling me "no" you don't feel like the general community has the same feelings as you. I probably should have said "Do you feel like you know what the feelings of the general community are?" May have been a better way to word it. And while none of us can know without asking each individual and tallying it up, internally we have some ideas about it. For instance you have drawn some conclusions w/o that data from Riot. We have a sort of gut feeling that gets formed based on a lot of factors but still it tells us information. This may sound weird but I've found it to be true, the universe leaks information.

I think it's pretty clear that the community isn't necessarily feeling it, but that doesn't mean Riot isn't actively listening to and empathizing with us.

But it also doesn't mean that they are either. No implications meant either way. I know they are listening, I've seen instances of it. Being on the other end of things, one can only assume what is being heard and what is not. Left only to observation people may conclude correct or incorrect correlations on both ends of the communication/non-communication. Its pretty hard to follow also when there are posts spread out in so many areas.

That being said it's getting significantly better

I hope you're right, it may be a wait and see process. I mentioned that I seemed to see a repetition that might need correction but I'm no expert and I certainly do not have the data, I'm also not sure that data will uncover it at this stage. Changes are inevitable; the directions are optional, either way they will be a demonstration of the mindset.

RiotPWYFF3 votes

You have a final thing:

I presume you are specifically looking for people that have studied communications/journalism or have done it professionally rather than recreationally?

Hopefully yes because that guarantees a certain degree of understanding of the space we're working in. Most people we interview just default to "I would post on the forums about it" when it comes to communicating key issues, but the problem is that we've been forced to push well beyond that. It's not just about talking and hoping it gets out there - mediums change the messages, and international parity is hugely important to us.

Regardless I'm also looking to individuals who are extremely articulate and understand the problem space regardless. Why's it so difficult to communicate design changes? Why was it difficult in the past? Why was Lee Sin so hard to nerf when the community believed him to be the most balanced champion in the game? There are real reasons at play, and I'd love to hire people who at least know how to chase down those answers.

Trinityunicorn2 votes

I used to be married to a man that was a natural engineer. He had raw talent that was obvious but lacked the educational stuff. There are natural professions that people are geared towards that they simply didn't jump through the hoops that society required of them. In all professions there are natural teachers, musicians, artists, nurses, doctors, business people, you name it. I suppose it applies to gamers too! His job at the time turned into fixing what the engineers sent down line. He would tell me they were book smart but couldn't see what wouldn't work or the design flaws. The company he worked for was a subsidiary so he'd get plans, they would be implemented, then he would be the one that worked out the flaws in the design. It would have been so much more beneficial if they would have recognized his raw talent and invited him to give input on the some of the designs.

You really could reverse engineer the expansion into other media venues that you've branched out into <which is another thing that upset a lot of people.> Simply refer them to the place where the information is now. Provide a link. Does this poster have a valid idea? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/ckKBFeRB-goosechase-of-feedback

I posted to Daen about why I thought that some of the changes, particularly the maintenance ones were causing such backlash where as the new innovated ideas had better success.

the problem is that we've been forced to push well beyond that.

How have you been forced into other mediums to communicate with your player base? Can you describe that?

What do you mean by international parity being important? Are you referring to global feedback rather than regional?

The Lee Sin nerf I don't know a whole lot about except that it was announced and then what I have gathered was rescinded because of what sounded like community backlash.

RiotSargonas8 votes

Hey there! I'm the snazzily dressed gentleman at the end there, J. Eckert aka Riot Sargonas. I got a lot of feedback about our Panel at PAX after we had it, almost entirely positive. This by far, however, is some of the most detailed and constructive I've seen yet! (Far beyond the typical "dude your panel was cool.")

First off, it's probably a good idea to stress that what we covered in our panel were choice excerpts that we wanted to present in the short 20 minutes we wanted to take up, being that our goal was to give as much of the 1 hour over to a Q&A as possible. Because of that, we only lightly touched on a few small things, there is so much more that the community team at Riot does that we never got time to expand upon. Some of which are actually things that you highlighted. Others, are good ideas and feedback for us.

Case in point, on the topic of the community team finding choice threads and feedback and bringing them to the attention of the proper Rioters: Not only is that something that teams do already, but actually we encourage all Rioters to do this. Great example: this thread was brought to my attention by someone not of our community team who happened to see it before I did. We definitely encourage Rioters to reach out to each other when they see something a fellow Rioter can positively weigh in on.

Some of your other points are really good ones, and some of them are things we are already tackling. To be honest though I can't speak eloquently to them since I focus primarily on 3rd Party Developer Relations and would be speaking out of my element if I tried to. Hopefully though others from those teams can weigh in.

I'm really glad that our panel actually struck a chord with you though, and generated this discussion!

Daen2 votes

I'm the snazzily dressed gentleman

Why yes, yes you are. I wore sport coats all through college actually, so I'm right there with you!

This by far, however, is some of the most detailed and constructive [feedback] I've seen yet!

I appreciate that.

we only lightly touched on a few small things, there is so much more that the community team at Riot does that we never got time to expand upon. Some of which are actually things that you highlighted. Others, are good ideas and feedback for us.

If you don't mind me asking, which points here are things that are good ideas and feedback as opposed to things Riot already does that weren't expanded upon during the panel? I'd love to know what material here is just reiteration vs things that actually carry weight or have merit in that respect.

Case in point, on the topic of the community team finding choice threads and feedback and bringing them to the attention of the proper Rioters: Not only is that something that teams do already, but actually we encourage all Rioters to do this. Great example: this thread was brought to my attention by someone not of our community team who happened to see it before I did. We definitely encourage Rioters to reach out to each other when they see something a fellow Rioter can positively weigh in on.

Good to hear. In hindsight this is kind of obvious; it would be pretty much impossible for Rioters to comment on what's relevant without lots of people pitching in to sort through things...oops.

Hopefully though others from those teams can weigh in.

This would be fantastic! Community Management is something I'm really passionate about, as I've been pretty heavily involved in it as a volunteer for almost a decade. I love discussing this stuff, and input from the people that make these things happen is awesome.

Thanks for the reply, and I definitely enjoyed the panel!

Cuix1 votes

Case in point, on the topic of the community team finding choice threads and feedback and bringing them to the attention of the proper Rioters: Not only is that something that teams do already, but actually we encourage all Rioters to do this.

So how come we never hear about how IP gains have decreased? The reasoning behind rune prices remaining excessively high? The steady increase in prices for skins, champions, and all forms of content? The near-removal of IP events and compensation for issues on Riot's end?

Why did it take years for the lore team to talk to us to any meaningful extent? Why is it that, even now, most of their posts are essentially repetition, and ignore counterpoints or cogent arguments? Who decided it would be a good idea for us not to hear about the IoW's removal until it was too late?

How did Karma happen? Trundle? Skarner? What caused these communication issues, when there was already a precedent of bad communication? Stealth rework, Magma Chamber, 1k RP, the Pantheon skin... after all of that, how did reworks end up having the same problems?

Clearly, this method of encouraging communication just isn't working. It could work if each department at Riot had some employees ready to talk, and a manager willing to let them talk, but that's not the case.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

Hi Rauron,

I can tell you're frustrated. I don't think you'll get the answers to your questions today but if we keep the lines of communication open hopefully we'll find some solutions from this point forward.

Believe it or not, I think that being hit by so many angry questions might be at least part of the reason that the communications haven't gone well in many cases previously. I realize you're using the questions to make a point, but realize that the receiver would feel a bit interrogated and perhaps intimidated by just the sheer number of answers that its asking for.

I see the fact that two red's have posted and opened a dialogue to be proof that it IS working. I'm having this conversation here with you now in hopes that your dialogue and mine will help others to see what works and what doesn't and will find their part in the equation and adjust accordingly so that it keeps working. Communication is a two way street, you give and receive ideas and meta messages. Communication breaks down when things like blaming, negativity, disrespect etc.... enter.

Your point is stated in the last paragraph that you feel its not working. I see that it is by the posts by the Riot staff. It is possible that it could work also as it is right now if we keep the lines of communication open by being respectful, honoring and discussing the ideas from both sides and thinking together about solutions. You have two employees ready to talk, but realize that discussion is about a topic that is about how to bridge the gap between Rioters and players better and while I'm not going to dispute any of the points you brought up that may support your point that communication is not working, I have trouble supporting the way you are going about making your point.

I think if we will let this unfold without anger involved, that we may actually get to some of the core problems from which MANY of the issues you mention stem. It may take a bit of time but hopefully you'll see results down the road a ways.

It could work if each department at Riot had some employees ready to talk, and a manager willing to let them talk, but that's not the case.

I see two Riot employees ready to talk. I don't see any manager holding them back. We haven't had time to see that even so I'm not going decide the outcome. If it were true that they couldn't talk due to a manager deciding that they can't then why would they even bother to show up in the first place? I see sincerity and honesty from their posts and a willingness to discuss the ideas that Daen brought forth.

I think if you set aside all the issues that you brought up in your post and look, you can see what I see. I can also see your concern for the game and feel like you also would like to find a solution. Hopefully with some exploration and development of the ideas we can find one. That would be a step in the right direction. :-)

Cuix1 votes

Believe it or not, I think that being hit by so many angry questions might be at least part of the reason that the communications haven't gone well in many cases previously. I realize you're using the questions to make a point, but realize that the receiver would feel a bit interrogated and perhaps intimidated by just the sheer number of answers that its asking for.

I do believe that, but you're misunderstanding my intent. I'm not looking for answers here. I know that those answers won't be found in this thread, and they shouldn't be. To talk about IP and such in this thread would be derailing, and that's just counterproductive. However, this thread is about communication. The overarching questions are the important bit. I want to know why many topics, and in fact entire departments' worth of topics, see no communication. I also want to know why there are still so many problems with communication, along the lines of silence from Riot, when that has been shown consistently and repeatedly to be simply problematic without sufficient gain.

I see the fact that two red's have posted and opened a dialogue to be proof that it IS working. [...] I see that it is by the posts by the Riot staff.

Again, this shows that you do not recognize the situation. Yes, there are some Rioters who talk to us. GC, Xelnath, IronStylus, Sargonas, Pendragon, lots of names that show up repeatedly to have discussions. For those departments, a Community Manager is clearly not necessary, as the role is already being filled. However, look at the questions I was asking. Which Rioters talk about those things? Is there any communication coming from the department(s) involved? If there isn't, then my point stands quite strongly. Some departments might be fine relying on communicative employees, but others may need the involvement of a Community Manager.

I think if we will let this unfold without anger involved, that we may actually get to some of the core problems from which MANY of the issues you mention stem. It may take a bit of time but hopefully you'll see results down the road a ways.

I've been playing since Season 1. I started when MF was released. It still feels odd to me when people complain about the lack of an Elise skin because she's been around a while, when for me "a while" refers to champions like Shen or Taric. I've already watched Riot's communication change over time. Years, in fact. A lot of things have vastly improved. The game is far more balanced, much more aesthetically pleasing, easier to understand, and now has a massive community. I'm a fan of that. Some things, however, have gotten worse. Communication is an iffy one, here, because it's gotten much better in some places and distressingly worse in others. Hence, I'm talking about specific departments and types of information which do not have any communication. A system in which some things are good but other things are awful is suboptimal, but the Riot posts in this thread seem to be quite fine with that. I want to know why.

If it were true that they couldn't talk due to a manager deciding that they can't then why would they even bother to show up in the first place?

Again, look at the specific questions I've asked. I'm asking about decisions which clearly have to do with the business end of Riot, and they have been quite notably unwilling to talk about those decisions and the situations therefrom. It very well may be that a manager is telling them not to post, since that sort of dialogue can be thorny. If that's the case, though, I'd hope they would at least be transparent about it. This current silence is disquieting.

I think if you set aside all the issues that you brought up in your post and look, you can see what I see.

Yes, I can be quite happy if I set aside all my issues. Even if I could, though, I wouldn't.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

Good Morning Rauron,

I do believe that, but you're misunderstanding my intent. I'm not looking for answers here. I know that those answers won't be found in this thread, and they shouldn't be.

I knew and acknowledged that you were using the questions NOT as questions but to make a point. I guess what I was trying to communicate to you was that you were using them almost as a weapon of interrogation and intimidation. Lets make a case against this and prove it. Time will tell if I misunderstood something that is possible. If so my apologies.

I also want to know why there are still so many problems with communication, along the lines of silence from Riot, when that has been shown consistently and repeatedly to be simply problematic without sufficient gain.

Well I'd say "sometimes" its due to the community coming across as an angry mob not all the time but that's a contributing factor for cutting off communication. In other cases and I think that discussing this might be good I see Riot as already having formed the idea, run it through production methods and then popping out and saying, this is what we're gonna do. The players who have an opinion or want to voice an opinion about it have no say because its a done deal. You can only move forward from that point. So I would say that on Riot's part they haven't engaged the community enough before they make "some changes" a great many that you are referring to. There's not a whole lot to say or much room for alteration and it becomes a attack/defense positioning.

Once you've already pissed someone off then the communication process is already heading for derailment. So a change to their approach to presentation of changes might help in many of those cases. Riot is great at creating new innovative ideas, forging new ground. Many of the things you mentioned are about maintenance of already established ideas and that may be where the changes need to be made.

A system in which some things are good but other things are awful is suboptimal, but the Riot posts in this thread seem to be quite fine with that. I want to know why.

I'm sure they'd agree with you and they don't have all the answers. Consider how much Riot has grown along the way and the many areas that they have branched into. There's gonna be some rocks and some successes. They're moving fast, we're moving fast with them. I refer to my statement about about the maintaining of established ideas.

they have been quite notably unwilling to talk about those decisions and the situations therefrom. It very well may be that a manager is telling them not to post, since that sort of dialogue can be thorny. If that's the case, though, I'd hope they would at least be transparent about it.

This just stopped me. You can't really be transparent if someone is tying your hands. I could say more about this but its gotten lengthy already.

This current silence is disquieting.

I've noticed that and have been thinking about what is going wrong with the communications. Why does the community seem so angry, etc. and things to do about it. I've been in other gaming communities that weren't this volatile, but this is my first mmorpg. To me I realize there are differences but people are the same, they work pretty much the same ways. What starts out as an idea that gains ground usually encompasses a small community then as it grows and turns profitable there seems to be a widening gap that disconnects the players and the company. Its usually profits over people. This is what I hope is not happening here though.

I can be quite happy if I set aside all my issues. Even if I could, though, I wouldn't.

I was only asking that you do that momentarily to see clearly how the approach might be derailing further communication. I have an issue too, I love playing Sona, but I'm doing my best to not let my dissatisfaction with the changes to get in the way of possibly altering the course of things like that happening again.

Cuix1 votes

I knew and acknowledged that you were using the questions NOT as questions but to make a point. I guess what I was trying to communicate to you was that you were using them almost as a weapon of interrogation and intimidation.

I was using them to support my point, but it is true that my post was emotionally charged. I meant to express my frustration without using a personal attack or undeserved insult. If I went too far, then that's my bad.

Well I'd say "sometimes" its due to the community coming across as an angry mob not all the time but that's a contributing factor for cutting off communication.

I think a distinction needs to be made when we're talking about the angry mob. One version of this is when people are simply spewing vitriol, shouting at Riot without saying anything other than "I'm mad". That's counterproductive and abhorrent. When I join those mobs, however, I try to do it in a different way. I think it's okay to express displeasure, but it's our job to do so in a way that does not involve an actual attack, and without losing the presentation of truly constructive feedback allowing further discussion. In fewer words: a heated debate is fine, so long as it doesn't turn into a shouting match.

I'm sure they'd agree with you and they don't have all the answers.

Not having all the answers is fine. However, Sargonas and Pwyff in this thread seem to be saying that their current communication paradigm is sufficient. I see problems with Riot's communication, so I disagree with them on that point.

This just stopped me. You can't really be transparent if someone is tying your hands.

Right, and that's why I worry. A lot of the "player-focused company" talk gets stained when the business/commerce department is in the background making decisions without the player being prioritized. Obviously, I'm not accusing Morello or IronStylus of making decisions based on greed. I don't think they even are particularly greedy. There is, however, a side of Riot remaining quiet in the dark, and that just screams "The Bad Guy".

What starts out as an idea that gains ground usually encompasses a small community then as it grows and turns profitable there seems to be a widening gap that disconnects the players and the company. Its usually profits over people. This is what I hope is not happening here though.

Looking at Riot's business decisions over time, I worry. I also must admit that the most recent lore decision is somewhat suspicious, but I'm biased on that front and will wait to see how their choice is utilized.

Trinityunicorn2 votes

If I went too far, then that's my bad.

I don't think you went too far, just that its hard for me to see how its going to open or keep open a communication. As soon as a defense goes up.......people stop listening it seems like to me.

I think a distinction needs to be made when we're talking about the angry mob. One version of this is when people are simply spewing vitriol, shouting at Riot without saying anything other than "I'm mad". That's counterproductive and abhorrent. When I join those mobs, however, I try to do it in a different way. I think it's okay to express displeasure, but it's our job to do so in a way that does not involve an actual attack, and without losing the presentation of truly constructive feedback allowing further discussion. In fewer words: a heated debate is fine, so long as it doesn't turn into a shouting match.

What if the outcome turns out to be not a heated discussion but a withdrawl from discussion?

Not having all the answers is fine. However, Sargonas and Pwyff in this thread seem to be saying that their current communication paradigm is sufficient. I see problems with Riot's communication, so I disagree with them on that point.

So I went back and reviewed the 3 posts and I can't say as though you didn't hear correctly. I didn't really hear that the objective was to improve the player/designer relationship as much as the focus was communication on a more global scale. My heart kind of sunk a bit when I wrote this.

Right, and that's why I worry. A lot of the "player-focused company" talk gets stained when the business/commerce department is in the background making decisions without the player being prioritized. Obviously, I'm not accusing Morello or IronStylus of making decisions based on greed. I don't think they even are particularly greedy. There is, however, a side of Riot remaining quiet in the dark, and that just screams "The Bad Guy".

I think the company used to be very player focused. It had to in order to survive. Now its established, and its looking at a much bigger picture. I know I don't have enough information to judge the good or the bad of it. I can say I think it would be unwise to overlook their smaller regional area, but that does not equate to unprofitable. Sometimes things work very well in the world according to what one is using for a measuring stick.

Looking at Riot's business decisions over time, I worry. I also must admit that the most recent lore decision is somewhat suspicious, but I'm biased on that front and will wait to see how their choice is utilized.

Here's my take on it I guess. I think Windows was a good thing in the long run for the world, I probably wouldn't be here talking to you now without it. However with my last computer purchase I had to deal with Microsoft and I had a game that had a readme file that required MSWord. My comp didn't ship with that standard anymore, I either needed to buy the program or buy a subscription. The next time I needed some help with my new comp I went to talk with their customer support to try to get some help because I'm so computer illiterate. I was told that in order to get some help I needed to fork over $149. My alternative was to try to sift through their files and find a solution myself. I told them that the reality was that I didn't have $149 to spend, and although they were very sympathetic with my situation, they couldn't help me. Was I mad? Oh yeah. I'm probably not gonna buy a Mac though and I probably can't do without Windows. Did I buy their product service? no. Did I buy their program? No. Am I happy with them and their decision? No. Are they successful, if making money is successful then yes. While I'd love to have the money, I'm not willing to do that to people. I don't really feel like I can get away from that easily as a consumer, its probably built on principles of best business practices. Microsoft is big enough that it really doesn't matter if I'm sitting over here mad or even thousands like me.

Cuix1 votes

I don't think you went too far, just that its hard for me to see how its going to open or keep open a communication[...] What if the outcome turns out to be not a heated discussion but a withdrawal from discussion?

I suppose "causing defensiveness/withdrawal" is "too far", to me. If I've done something that makes my goals harder to achieve, then that's bad. Not immoral, but inefficient. I'll keep this in mind, anyway.

So I went back and reviewed the 3 posts and I can't say as though you didn't hear correctly. I didn't really hear that the objective was to improve the player/designer relationship as much as the focus was communication on a more global scale. My heart kind of sunk a bit when I wrote this.

Sorry! I mean, I'm glad you see some of the things I see, but displeasure is still displeasure.

I think the company used to be very player focused. It had to in order to survive. Now its established, and its looking at a much bigger picture. I know I don't have enough information to judge the good or the bad of it.

Yeah, it's that lack of transparency/information/dialogue that gets me. I mean, look at the Xerath rework. Xelnath came in and chatted up a storm, making a lot of people feel really confident that the rework would go well. That was great! In contrast, the multi-year silence of the stealth rework.

Microsoft is big enough that it really doesn't matter if I'm sitting over here mad or even thousands like me.

Totally agreed. I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, though I do greatly prefer their products over Apple's. As a consumer, I try to give my money to those who will create more good than my alternative options would. When it comes to tech, that often goes Google > Microsoft > Apple. Right now, I don't buy RP because I'm not really sure about Riot's business practices, but I do enjoy talking about and promoting LoL because most of the rest of the company seems pretty great.

Trinityunicorn2 votes

Sorry! I mean, I'm glad you see some of the things I see, but displeasure is still displeasure.

Certainly not your fault! :-) It wasn't a big deal, just a bit disappointing. I was hopeful that things might shift a bit in the way things were done that I thought might be causing some problems, at this point it kind of feels like it will be more of the same.

it's that lack of transparency/information/dialogue that gets me.

I don't know if its a lack of transparency etc... or a fork in the road <differing viewpoints on my end>. I guess I'm saying I'm taking what I heard at face value, I heard interest it was just on a less personal level. That might translate into an overlooking of individuals and focus upon global group. Size may force that, both the size of the available manpower and the size <population> of the area to manage. Energy follows intention, its not necessarily an ignoring of the individual but a lack of focus and importance upon it in the companies eyes and interests. It may end up equating to that but doesn't mean it was an intention <the oversight>. I hope that made sense.

ex. I posted about the CLG incident.....the team's focus was on getting practice in and getting ready for worlds, perhaps the biggest event of their careers at least thus far. I doubt their intent was to cheat, realization may not have even caught up in understanding until they went to bed that night. Its not necessarily an ignoring of the rules but a lack of attention and focus upon them.

I didn't follow the Xerath changes. I spent hours reading the Sona feedback when that happened and even posted in that. Over the last year I can't say as I'm ecstatic about that and it has led me to wonder about the approach and whether or not it was worth time and energy to even try to say anything because much was said that had very little impact on direction.

I try to vote with my money when I can too. RP, usually buy it in bulk when it goes on sale but can't say what I'll do the next time it comes around. I'm getting the feeling but don't know for sure that perhaps one might get a better viewpoint from the broader internet, say twitter, rather than the boards themselves.

Enjoyed this thank you.

Sir ArmaMalum4 votes

Dangit Daen you beat me to it! :P

I just saw this panel vid on S@20 and wasn't able to finish watching it yet. I was planning on talking about this exact same thing, this however is better than what I would have set up so, awesome!

I need to run to class real quick, give me a bit more than an hour and I'll happily converse on this!

Daen1 votes

Sounds good, reply to my message whenever you're around!

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Alright back! Personally I was perplexed about Riot's lack of community moderators (as you already knew). I came to the conclusion that they would prefer the lack of an intermediary by myself, this panel simply confirmed.

I agree with most of your points, the logic behind their decision is sound and I like it. So far, Riot --> community communication has been great. Not as great as some may want, but compared to the rest of the industry simply amazing. However, I don't think it has transitioned well with the growth of the League community. Imho there are simply too many people to have the model of Riot direct interaction to be effective as the only way of communication for community --> Riot. Of course, there's never going to be a way to listen to everyone (let alone please them), but I digress. In summary, I think their current model of Riot-->Community is acceptable but not the other way around, which is the stance for most my following thoughts.

Relieve developers of the task of maintaining official correspondence Known Bugs (Boards) Change Logs (Boards)

I actually don't like this idea. In itself it's not a bad idea, but it still puts in a middle-man. Though it was good intention, it's still a crutch to fall on, and as is the natural progression of work and time crutches tend to evolve into foundations. Am I saying that all rioters would end up relying on these hypothetical community managers to write the logs? No, but bit just takes one to use it too often. Then it's not the dev talking, it's another guy talking for him and creates a disconnect. It's a slippery slope from there.

Mountain out of a molehill maybe, but largely I also think that the people behind the dev logs would want to write them up themselves anyway. Speculation of course, but in general I think they can handle it pretty well themselves.

While I agree with Riot's overall choice of "Killing the Community Manager", eliminating the middle man and giving a true face to the company, I want to bring up my viewpoint of the Community-->Riot communication lacking. Maybe "lacking" isn't the right word, but not visually present. We keep seeing reds saying "don't worry we're reading everything" and honestly I believe them, unfortunately that can' be said for a lot of forum goers. In my eyes, Riot doesn't need community managers, but we need community Liasons. Fellow players that can do most, if not all of what you mentioned. Primarily point out threads to Reds, organize events and answer general questions with a degree of official confidence.

This is actually what that P-mod proposal I started working on turned into, and is the reason I've been taking so long on that.

Daen2 votes

I actually don't like this idea. In itself it's not a bad idea, but it still puts in a middle-man. Though it was good intention, it's still a crutch to fall on, and as is the natural progression of work and time crutches tend to evolve into foundations. Then it's not the dev talking, it's another guy talking for him and creates a disconnect. It's a slippery slope from there.

Interesting. So, in your opinion, the amalgamation and display of information from developers could be construed as a middle-man?

The goal here is for CMs to essentially handle the administrative part of the workload, not having anything to do with devs' responsiveness to player concerns. I don't consider creating a list of known bugs to be particularly interactive, for example, as it's mainly intended to be a piece of information available to the community. To me, as long as it gets done and done right it doesn't necessarily matter who produces it. In comparison, a Community Manager talking to players about game design as a representative of Morello would be dumb.

I also think that the people behind the dev logs would want to write them up themselves anyway. Speculation of course, but in general I think they can handle it pretty well themselves.

Not to point any fingers, but where have dev logs such as a perpetually updated set of change logs and known bugs been over the longevity of the Boards, just as an example? Ideally the developers could maintain their own official correspondence, but doing that can end up sucking all of their time away from actually getting anything done.

Realistically speaking, someone has to do it. I would rather see change logs from someone representing the developers and assisting them with the workload than not seeing them at all, personally, but I'm aware that opinions may differ.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Ah ok, so you were thinking of more of a collection of what's been said, kinda like what Moobeat does for AmA at S@20? I'm all for that. I interpreted it initially as the hypothetical CM's would actually write the dev logs for the design teams, and at that point it creates my aforementioned disconnect.

Realistically speaking, someone has to do it.

Workload is simply something I have no idea about, but if it ever does get to the point that the devs are working so much that they can't create a log at any milestone changes like the lore changes I'd rather they just delay the log and write it later than to get a separate, less relevant person to write it for them. It's just the fact that someone is writing it for them, it adds a layer in between the community and the dev team. Kind of like someone sending you an e-mail instead of knocking on your door, not a huge deal, you still get the same information but you lose the charm of the dev him/herself addressing the community. But of course, that's jut my individual opinion. You're by no means wrong in your thinking. Better way to put it: I think we just have very small difference in priorities on the matter, I can understand your PoV.

Daen2 votes

so you were thinking of more of a collection of what's been said, kinda like what Moobeat does for AmA at S@20?

Essentially, yes. An example would be the Known Bugs list; the CM would be heavily involved in the process to the extent that he or she would be very knowledgeable about what bugs Riot is aware of, what's being fixed, what has been resolved, etc. Basically, the CM would be sharing knowledge with the devs then editing and releasing that knowledge for the community.

if it ever does get to the point that the devs are working so much that they can't create a log at any milestone changes like the lore changes I'd rather they just delay the log and write it later than to get a separate, less relevant person to write it for them.

Using the Boards as an example, Change Logs can be a daunting process; the platform is constantly changing and new problems are constantly being noticed and solved. Should the developers be simultaneously working on the platform and documenting what happens? If so, should they also be tasked with editing that information for the general public and maintaining relationships around it?

As I said before, in an ideal world a single developer could work on a project, document that project, inform the community about the project, gather and utilize feedback for the project, and maintain relationships around that project without making any sacrifices.

Realistically, however, this just isn't possible; it's part of why there are teams of Rioters that take on different projects. Is there any particular reason that a role within these teams dedicated to information exchange and encouraging interaction would seem like someone less relevant producing information?

you still get the same information but you lose the charm of the dev him/herself addressing the community.

This really depends on how you define a dev. Would it lose charm to have someone like Pwyff write a Known Bugs thread for the work being done by the champion design team, for example?

Something important to consider; almost all correspondence is representative in some sense. Ghostcrawler speaks to high level game design, Pendragon represents the moderation team for the Boards, Meddler discusses detailed champion design, Lyte champions Player Behavior & Justice, etc. These people are not the only devs working on a given project (or might not even be directly working on it) but are still considered to be valuable voices of reason.

Ziln00bas4 votes

Very well-written, comprehensive and well-formatted. PAX 2011 I went to a community panel about moving beyond forums and had a great, unexpected surprise with a Rioter coming up to me after I asked a question, appreciated the answer, then asked the panel if it was cool if I did the inverse of their advice, haha.

I think the one of the only thing missing from this pretty extensive post is a new and more appropriate job title: Community Facilitator. Or Community Ambassadors.(Maybe something even better will come to me later.)

It's subtle but critically important why a job title be as spot-on as possible.

Thanks for creating an informative piece and giving us some constructive ideas to consider and discuss!

Daen2 votes

Very well-written, comprehensive and well-formatted.

I appreciate that.

I think the one of the only thing missing from this pretty extensive post is a new and more appropriate job title: Community Facilitator. Or Community Ambassadors.

A quick point to make on this; were you around during the Riot Ambassador fiasco? For anyone unaware, Riot decided to try having one red account used by multiple people as a way to help with interaction on the forums. Needless to say, it didn't work.

I get the feeling that naming a role Ambassador might carry a negative connotation for older (game age, not age age) players. Community Facilitator could work, though it sounds a bit...official. :P

It's subtle but critically important why a job title be as spot-on as possible.

Somewhat, though I see where you're going. The reason I remained with Community Manager is that it's an established job title and is directly referenced by the panel at PAX.

Thanks for creating an informative piece and giving us some constructive ideas to consider and discuss!

No problem! I love discussion, especially when it's something where others share my passion on the topic.

Trinityunicorn3 votes

You need more than one or even two people to do all the things you listed <if you want them to do it well>. The audio on that was very hard for me to really hear a lot of what was being said and follow it well. I mostly heard that Riot was interested in things that would grow their player base more than interest in what their players thought or felt. I do agree that them supporting those organizing and trying to get community things together is a good idea, it will be fruitful for them. Mostly business I guess you could say.

Tbh though, the thing that stood out to me the most was the soldier that was told that it was too bad they could do nothing about his decaying rank while he was deployed coming home to find that someone went out of there way to honor his situation and preserve his rank. Made me almost cry. I guess its what we'd all like to encounter from other fellow humans, and it does happen in this world, but all too often it is rules that bar the way, policy and red tape.

That does require someone with their finger on the individual players. No way every player can get that kind of attention, but when you have a player base as large as league's you have some unique situations and somehow unique situations have a way of surfacing.

You have some great ideas here and some I wish Riot would adopt!

The focus seems to be on grouping in the world, around a large number of computers, yet most of us are at home and group via computers. Playing on the NA server I get to meet people from coast to coast in the states and in Canada and I have two people I met through league that live in Hong Kong and Turkey.

So as far as trust goes, I suppose I put my vote in with that example of that soldier, it gives me more trust in Riot as a company than things I can see that return monetary gain or player base growth, it also offsets some of the things that I see that make me lose trust. Things that community managers would be very helpful to them in keeping aware of what is going on.

Experts, are great in their area, however, they aren't always great in every area <none of us are>. And they sometimes are SO SMART that they can't see the common view, We used to have an ortho doc here that was horrid at getting along with his patients but he was super in surgery. <happens alot> I saw an Emergency Room physician totally miss that the man's wife didn't have a clue that he was in cardiac arrest. He knew his facts though and he knew what to do to save his life, he just really couldn't <or didn't have the time> to pick up on the awareness of the wife and wasn't really prepared to deal with her shock. So yes, community managers could be helpful to pointing certain things out that might get overlooked.

I hope someone from Riot reads your post and prints it out and runs to someone that could do something with your ideas!

Daen3 votes

Thank you for the comments.

My main goal is to show that Community Managers (people whose entire job is, well, managing a community) as a concept aren't something that can't work with Riot. I think your comments on trust are interesting; paying attention to the individual is super important, and in unique situations like that soldier it's awesome that Riot comes through for such an isolated case.

You don't have to be a middle-man to be a CM, and there is so much potential benefit hiding in this sort of focused position that is apparently being diffused into Riot as a whole.

Trinityunicorn1 votes

You're most welcome Daen.

Well I don't really care what the title is as much as the points that you have listed are being taken care of. So I'm not pro community manager as much as I am pro player or pro people. You did it well though. I also do get the sense that due to Riot's rapid growth that their internal growth is having a hard time coping, <they are having growing pains> Always with all that growth comes a place where you have to make decisions that will conflict with what you really want to do.

I love Riot's vision and its part of the reason I stuck around when I first ran up against the toxicity of the community. I'm to a point to where I'm fairly grounded in the impact I want to make upon the world, I just want it to be better and use myself to try to make just that little space wherever I'm at a tad better before I move on. That to me is success. That's my goal, its not awesome or grand but it is benevolent and it is something I can live with and hopefully attain.

Trust. People want to be heard, listened to. Sometimes you have to listen very hard in order to glean what they have to say because they have either poor communication skills or haven't explored it enough to even know what they want or how to go about getting it. Still they have a message, it may be as simple as look at me or I'm having a bad day. The trust comes from not being harmful.

Life is full of unique situations, its good that some take the time to realize that its not always easy to do the right thing, but its worth it.

It doesn't matter if the position is eliminated as long as there is a position that opens that covers it. It becomes very difficult when companies downsize and just spread the work load over an already over worked employee pool, in the long run it will decrease quality and create unhappy employees, and although it may look good on the budget, it is a delayed time bomb. I love Stephen Covey's ideas in 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, you kill the goose that lays your golden eggs and the eggs stop coming.

Since you've been working in community you understand that just because there is a space to gather that does not necessarily mean that it will fill with community. Community is fostered usually by a few hard working individuals that care and think about ways to make it hospitable and welcoming. Marketing helps too, but you still need the stewards of it.

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