Honestly, Ornn's W should have never been changed into Max HP damage

Malicious Metal·Nov 23, 2017·52 votes·2,914 views

We're talking about a tank who already has access to pretty consistent max hp damage in form of his brittle debuff.

His old W gave him sufficient oomf to go toe to toe with other tanks but his combination of CC, strong damage and being almost immovable in lane makes him extremely frustrating to fight for most other champions.

He either needs the W change reverted or actual meaningful mana costs so he has to back every now and then.

53 Comments

Ben SharpioNov 23, 201720 votes

Well for some reason, Riot refuses to redistribute ANY power into his Q or E. I swear, all they know about this champion is BUFF W BUFF W BUFF R BUFF R BUFF W.

Like seriously...

Professor WardNov 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eLac2b15,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-23T16:11:12.524+0000)

Well for some reason, Riot refuses to redistribute ANY power into his Q or E. I swear, all they know about this champion is BUFF W BUFF W BUFF R BUFF R BUFF W.

Like seriously...

Youre nutzzz 100%ad ratio, scaling slow, creates terrain, synergizes with his e his q is extremely strong right now, i mained him support for a lil, and when maxed early, it works better than most ranged peel abilities mages have.......... And even better as a chase tool.

His q slow/damage and w unstoppable are hugely underestimated.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Youre nutzzz 100%ad ratio, scaling slow, creates terrain, synergizes with his e his q is extremely strong right now, i mained him support for a lil, and when maxed early, it works better than most ranged peel abilities mages have.......... And even better as a chase tool.

His q slow/damage and w unstoppable are hugely underestimated.

But it’s the only abilty that scales with AD. If you focus on that then you’ll lose out on something elsewhere, especially since the base value is fairly low at 140 max rank. It’s ok poke, but not his best. W is core, and so the lower CD on it is important, because you can negate a lot of stuff and, if playing Support Ornn, could probably get the enemy oretty low or at least get Brittle more often, since you just need that final flare.

JPLangleyNov 23, 20172 votes

[deleted]

AnonagonNov 23, 20172 votes

JP please stop embarrassing yourself this is a public forum my friend

DeusVultNov 23, 20175 votes

the w unstoppable is definitely underrated for sure, won me some duels for sure

but saying that there is any sort of power in Q is over-rating it

100%AD ratio. Orrn builds 0 ad. Maybe a item 3053 ?? ATM he goes all tank because his W damage is absurd, he doesn't need more damage. The slow is OK, but trying to use the created terrain for his E is almost impossible against a competent player, as it is incredibly telegraphed

Professor WardNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the w unstoppable is definitely underrated for sure, won me some duels for sure

but saying that there is any sort of power in Q is over-rating it

100%AD ratio. Orrn builds 0 ad. Maybe a ?? ATM he goes all tank because his W damage is absurd, he doesn't need more damage. The slow is OK, but trying to use the created terrain for his E is almost impossible against a competent player, as it is incredibly telegraphed

i know youre gonna say im stupid, or that because meta im wrong, but take him in the support role, and his q becomes far superior to his other abilities, and a 100% ad ratio, usuable or not is much better than 90% of the games unused ratios, especially considering that bruiser isnt TERRIBLE on ornn.

60% slow with a 5 second cooldown is huge botlane.

kile147Nov 24, 20172 votes

Pulling some power out of his W would be great. Make the description for Brittle an innate passive (instead of it being on his W for clarity reasons) and reduce the amount of damage from 7%-13% to 5%-12%.

Q should be able to apply Brittle, as its Ornn's unique thing. Applying it on the initial cast would definitely be excessive though, so the best way to do it would be that upon destruction of the pillar (either through timeout or Ornn charge) the pillar would explode, applying brittle to all targets in range.

W Remove 2% Max health damage from the ability at all ranks.

E is fine.

R currently has a slow on the first proc that scales with level (40%/60%/80%). It could honestly have a flat 50% slow at all ranks and I wouldn't notice as Ornn though, which makes it a good place to pull power out of his kit if needed.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20177 votes

I vote for the % changed back. It was a healthier version since tanks shouldn’t be able to kill their target as easily, and %current was what kept that in check, since he did less as the fight went on. I did have a post about it when it went on PBE, but it fell flat. But people wanted it all to be consistent and kept saying he was weak.

He was honestly fine before the damage change, but he was released going into a meta where enchanters were strong, and Janna and Lulu could really mess him up. Not to mention the last new champ before the Rune changes.

This is the problem with buffing champs in metas where their natural enemy is strong. Once the meta shifts they become the super strong ones.

SpecterVonBarenNov 24, 20171 votes

He wasn't fine and he's still not fine. Revert the buffs and just fix the jankiness with his kit. Currently he's OP because his numbers and max health damage but if he gets nerfed into a balanced state the jankiness will still be there.

EschetonNov 23, 20176 votes

He was completely unplayable without it though. Every ability he has is delayed, conditional and rather predictable. His W even slows him. But...it (now) deals good dmg and gives a bit of a shield so that all in all it's probably a good trade with the enemy.

The problem is that his kit always puts him one step behind is enemies. It costs one extra action to set up and pull off. But...if the fight lasts long enough, and he gets to set up due to say a chaotic teamfight, he shines. Like a bright fucking forgegod. Which makes sense. He's a forger. Not a fighter. He enables and sets up. He arms his allies. So that part of his kit, his fluff, the cohesion; is on point.

Ultimately, he's a lategame Tank. That needs help surviving the current meta. So he is hard to balance.

iLBGAMingNov 23, 20175 votes

Without that buff he would be irrelevant. He wouldn't provide much damage, and CC isn't always helpful believe it or not.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Without that buff he would be irrelevant. He wouldn't provide much damage, and CC isn't always helpful believe it or not.

He was actually decent before it. He has a lot of power, but people wanted the damage to be even across the whole fight...well Riot actually buffed his damage with that change as opposed to just spreading it out evenly. A lot of Ornn mains were doing well before the change, and a chunk of us thought it was a really unnecessary buff. If he needed more, there were other options that wouldmve been better and healthier

iLBGAMingNov 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eLac2b15,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-23T16:23:02.535+0000)

He was actually decent before it. He has a lot of power, but people wanted the damage to be even across the whole fight...well Riot actually buffed his damage with that change as opposed to just spreading it out evenly. A lot of Ornn mains were doing well before the change, and a chunk of us thought it was a really unnecessary buff. If he needed more, there were other options that wouldmve been better and healthier

As long as they don't try to pulloff some kind of rework similar to what they done to Galio, i'm okay with anything.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As long as they don't try to pulloff some kind of rework similar to what they done to Galio, i'm okay with anything.

I don’t think they will. Galio’s design was to be a hybrid of a tank and a mage, whereas Ornn is supposed to be as true of a tank as you can get, which is why his ratios and base values are low outside of W and all different scalings (Q is AD, W damage is target health with own max health for the shield, E is armor and mr, and R is super low AP ratio).

One suggestion elsewhere is better ways to apply Brittle to a target, since that is his core.

My QoL suggestion was zoom-out on ult..which a Rioter said didn’t work out like they wanted, sadly enough. Ornn never really needed outright buffs, just some touch-ups because his unreliability was insane and required perfect timing, like trying to hit E on a wall or recast ult with the delay on the charge.

iLBGAMingNov 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eLac2b15,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-23T17:16:45.505+0000)

I don’t think they will. Galio’s design was to be a hybrid of a tank and a mage, whereas Ornn is supposed to be as true of a tank as you can get, which is why his ratios and base values are low outside of W and all different scalings (Q is AD, W damage is target health with own max health for the shield, E is armor and mr, and R is super low AP ratio).

One suggestion elsewhere is better ways to apply Brittle to a target, since that is his core.

My QoL suggestion was zoom-out on ult..which a Rioter said didn’t work out like they wanted, sadly enough. Ornn never really needed outright buffs, just some touch-ups because his unreliability was insane and required perfect timing, like trying to hit E on a wall or recast ult with the delay on the charge.

Lol I wasn't referring to a complete rework but just the ability scaling change on his Q + Passive that shread tanks and squishies.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lol I wasn't referring to a complete rework but just the ability scaling change on his Q + Passive that shread tanks and squishies.

True, but that was to push him back toward AP as opposed to building straight tank.

Nanuk PihoqahiakNov 23, 20171 votes

Decent is a 45 percent winrate?

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

For an engage tank with a higher learning curve in a meta of enchanters like Janna and Lulu? Yeah, it is. And we can now see the results of having buffed him during that meta.

Z3SleeperNov 23, 20171 votes

He could literally have no other abilities and still be a gamechanger just cuz of that ult. That thing is nasty.

iLBGAMingNov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

He could literally have no other abilities and still be a gamechanger just cuz of that ult. That thing is nasty.

LUL Yasuo windwall blocks it, because that's ok lol.

Z3SleeperNov 23, 20172 votes

RIP existence is pain

I GANK LANESNov 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Without that buff he would be irrelevant. He wouldn't provide much damage, and CC isn't always helpful believe it or not.

unreliable cc at that. if anything needs to be done just lower the damage not outright change it

Professor WardNov 23, 20173 votes

this one hit me hard, 20% max health damage is drastic especially considering his w would be decent if it did 0 damage

insta brittle, increase cc, cause knockback autos, while also shitting on fioras reposte as an unstoppable

Ornns w is one of the better non ultimate abilities in game right now, the unstoppable portion of it is heavily underutilized right now

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

this one hit me hard, 20% max health damage is drastic especially considering his w would be decent if it did 0 damage

insta brittle, increase cc, cause knockback autos, while also shitting on fioras reposte as an unstoppable

Ornns w is one of the better non ultimate abilities in game right now, the unstoppable portion of it is heavily underutilized right now

His W would be decent without the damage, but he wouldn’t be, as all his values are so poor. Also not insta brittle...since it’s only the final spout that applies it.

Also, Good Fiora players won’t use Riposte while Ornn uses Bellows Breath, she’ll save it either for the E knockup or the Brittle auto.

AnonagonNov 23, 20173 votes

It being max health isn't inherently a problem. It being max health while maintaining it's current numbers is. Being max health is nice in how it allows him to sequence abilities differently and makes finishing low health targets easier if he's in range of them. The problem is that maximum health damage is mathematically double the effective strength of current health damage, but they only reduced the damage number by 20% when they made the change. That, in addition to the previous range buff which made sidestepping it without boots impossible, makes the ability overbearing.

Sahn UzalNov 23, 20172 votes

He kinda needed that W change IMO. If Riot wants to nerf him they should propably hit his mana pool/costs. Another nice suggestion I've seen is reduce the duration the Brittle debuff stays on a target.

Still think mana costs are the way to go though.

NineTailedMysticNov 24, 20171 votes

I mean, what would that really achieve? Him buying a Doran's Ring instead of a Doran's Shield first item?

My Waifu VanillaNov 24, 20171 votes

Or he would just start Corruption Potion and never run out of mana anyway. It's what I normally do at least. Even before all the mana buffs (which nerfing his mana would basically put him back to release in mana usage), Corrupting Potion+Glacial Shroud is all you should ever need for mana. If you are against a magic damage top laner than Catalyst is even BETTER for mana than Glacial.

AwesomeGuyDjNov 24, 20172 votes

I mean. I almost always rush IBG. So ye.

KennysDreamGirlNov 23, 20172 votes

you must not have played him before if you think his w before was beter for him

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you must not have played him before if you think his w before was beter for him

I did play him before, as did others. It wasn’t better in terms of damage, obviously. But it was healthier. He wouldn’t be considered OP like he is now had they not made that change.

Meep ManNov 23, 20172 votes

I did play him and, I think, for the sake of being easy to balance, his W dealing current health damage with a minimum number was much better for a Tank than flat max health damage.

NorthernRedStarNov 24, 20172 votes

Ornn can literally 1v3 people in the late game, with ease, because all his damage is AoE, contains CC, and half of it deals %-HP damage.

General Esdeath Nov 24, 20172 votes

Can't he just craft a mana item to gain that mana back?

Z3SleeperNov 23, 20171 votes

I think W should just not do % health at all. Just put more power into his passive's % health and make W entirely flat damage.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20173 votes

The problem is flat damage is an issue other tanks have right now because in order for tanks to farm and trade, they need damage, and if it’s flat damage it has to be higher, like Maokai’s and Naut’s Qs. % health allows Ornn to farm and trade, without his damage being insane from the flat base values.

Plus, if they did that, his other abilities would need more damage because the base values on those skills are terrible.

Z3SleeperNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think W should just not do % health at all. Just put more power into his passive's % health and make W entirely flat damage.

Iota ThetaNov 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think W should just not do % health at all. Just put more power into his passive's % health and make W entirely flat damage.

Missed that middle part of the comment

But still, his passive’s percent health is already at 7-13% per proc with no internal CD, and anyone with hard CC can proc it, not just him. He can get out a lot of Brittle applications in a fight. Ult applies it twice and procs it once if you hit both casts. The percent health was the best way to go because, again, we see the issue of flat damage right now with Maokai and other older tanks, either the damage is there and you’re actually oppressive due to low CDs, or it’s not and you get relegated to support

My Waifu VanillaNov 24, 20172 votes

Frankly I would rather deal with Ornn all day than play against Maokai and his Bramble Smash. One is completely dodgeable with no INHERENT CC attached to it while the other is much more spammable and near impossible to miss up close while having a knockback/slow attached to it. You can walk away from Ornn's W (the Bellow's Breath itself doesn't do THAT much damage despite popular believe it is the Grasp+Passive proc that stings) but you can't really walk away from Bramble Smash since it usually WILL hit you if you go to farm creeps.

Smitty ManjensenNov 23, 20171 votes

As the preseason goes on, his win rate is dropping, his current win rate according to op.gg is 48.91 %, I personally expected it to stay above 50% but obviously something is happening.

My Waifu VanillaNov 24, 20172 votes

He's generally squishier than most other tanks at least earlier on in the game. His W shield isn't always relevant and doesn't last as long as someone like Nautilus (who is also not doing so hot iirc not looking at numbers) so some times in trades you may not even get the shield if they just disengage off you. He also has to deal with PtA on most carries which further pushes him being somewhat squishier.

A big factor though is probably because he does a lot better in dual tank comps which allow him to set up plays and make better use of his brittle and chain cc capabilities. Yes, Leona is by far one of the strongest champions in the game right now, but outside of her not TOO many tanks are seeing real play with carry junglers being the norm again and Sona also crowding out a bit of bot lane.

CosnirakNov 24, 20171 votes

% current hp damage is inherently problematic and should only be used in rare circumstances with purpose. The problem is just that his current damage is too high, it's that simple. I think a small decrease to his % max hp damage and a small increase to his base AD (partially for farming purposes) would be fine.

RayetNov 24, 20171 votes

What if the pillar from q spawns faster, so you can combo more reliably, instead of an ad buff?

CosnirakNov 24, 20171 votes

Don't think that'd be related to the same issue. I was just thinking like 2-3 AD mostly for CSing and slightly to help in all ins. I think his combo is reliable enough if you're practiced on him (which I'm not, but I've seen a few who are, they basically never missed).

Slave KnightNov 24, 20171 votes

I absolutely fucking agree. WHY are all these tanks just being given every possible answer in the book? Can we have them, I dunno, have some form of weakness particularly in the early game where you know... they aren't mean to just destroy everything else and THEN scale into late game unkillable monsters?

That'd be good thanks.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 24, 20172 votes

Not allowed unfortunately. Tanks need tankyness, sustain, shields, scaling, insane dmg until 25 mins minimum, waveclear, low cooldown and reliable point and click, lots of CC and also be able to tke towers fast. Why you may ask? Well even trash should be allowed to get diamond by spamming op tanks toplane and just 1v1ing pretty much every fighter also: tanks must remove bruisers from the rift.

Slave KnightNov 24, 20171 votes

Unfortunately our opinions aren't wanted here haHAA but yeah, tanks are being pushed so hard it's frustrating to be a bruiser player.

Blessed By RNGNov 24, 20171 votes

No, Ornn needed this buff and he should still have his max health damage on his W, the current health damage was really bad

Teridax68Nov 25, 20171 votes

I think changing Ornn's W damage away from current health was good, as the old version interacted really weirdly with his waveclear, but I think its current problem is that a) its damage is now too high, especially early on, and b) too much of his damage is based on his enemy's health, which makes him far too strong in lane. With his unique innates, Ornn absolutely needs to be weak in lane. Not just so-so, but really, genuinely weak, more so than most other champion. Because of this, I don't think he should really have access to many of the tools that are given to other tanks or fighters, namely the ability to last-hit minions from out of melee range, or decent, let alone good, trading power. In fact, considering how he supplies tremendous amounts of crowd control, as well as stat utility via his late-game items, I don't even really think he needs to have any significant amount of damage. If he really needs trading power, his Brittle on-hit effect may just be enough by itself.