I must be doing soemthign wrong, tank vs damage.

Gubaguy··2 votes·1,532 views

So, to be clear, this is an issue ive been having for quite some time in game, and typically assumed that i had to be doing somethign wrong, playing a champ wrong, wrong build order, take your pick.

But after a game today ive decided to jsut publically address the issue and see what ive been doing wrong this whole time.

Basically, my issue is tanking vs going damage, on jsut about any champ. but lets use poppy as my main example since i was in a poppy mirror match when i finally snapped and went off about it.

Basically, it was poppy vs poppy toplane, and ive been struggling to make poppy work for me since her rework. I was a full tank poppy, she was a tanky juggernaut poppy, she had more AD, but i had far more armour, without giving up that much AD. At one point in the game i checked our stats and i had 85 armour, which was -30- more then she had, and she had 120ish AD, which was -40- more then i had at that time.

She moves in to do a trade, i have a minion wave and shes tnaking it, so i figure its a good trade to make, she goes in, i block her stun with my W, we trade Q's... half my HP gone form one full Q, meanwhile she takes a full Q from me and she barely takes 15% of her HP in damage. So what did i do wrong there? how do i take SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE when i have so much more tank? how does she get by while taking almost no damage at all? why does building damage jsut beat buildign tank?

Move to later in the game, lee comes up for a gank, i assume im straight up screwwed becuase im low, too low to go 2v1 so i run to my tower, lee marks me and i panic flash, my W isnt off CD yet, enemy poppy is rushing at me. in a panic i mash buttons and intrupt lee's dive with my E, im still low, too low to survive it poppy connects with even one ability. somehow i survive when my W comes off CD, poppy still has over half her HP and lunges at me, i W, then book it, the tower kilsl her on the spot. somehow maigcally i survive a 2 man dive while tkaing literally no damage and having less then 10% of my HP left.

I recall, get back to lane, and poppy is all over me AGAIN, she ignores my minions, and jsut goes all in, and nukes me with NO EFFORT. and by this point that doubel kills has given me my deadmans plate so i have a TON of HP and armour, soemthing like 150 or so by now and shes only got one damage item. so why does a champ who just died during a 2 man tower dive, giving her opponent 2 kills with close to even CS, jsut nuke someone who went pure tank? what am i missing here? and to be clear my runes and masteries are tnak based too, with small damage boots from assassin, and my keystone. My runes are my "taric" build runes which are some scaling HP runes, scaling MR runes, and ALL THE ARMOUR runes, becuase most toplanes are AD. i start the game with an absurd amoutn of armour, and still take a crazy high amoutn of damage.

Now lets flip to when i buidl damage vs tank. when i go ADC, or even toplane fighter champs, i build damage, duh. and when i see a tank i groan becuase for some reason even when i build a lord domi regards, i jsut dont ever do damage to them. so why when i buidl tank do i never sotp damage, and why when i build damage do i never do any? Ive looked at guides, ive made itemization calls based on champions in the game, i buy MR vs AP, and armour vs AD... what am i actually doing wrong here?

21 Comments

Z Statistic1 votes

Because her Q deals %max health? Building hp on her is going to make her Q chunk you for more. Resistances are better, but because %mhp scales naturally, you will have very little damage while the enemy has a decent amount of damage. Thus, you'll lose.

Do note that this is an edge case as this logic does not apply the same way with a normal scaling spells.

Gubaguy1 votes

her q still does AD damage, meaning armour shoudl negate it. even so, there was a 30 armour diffrence in the game and i was doing NO damage to her, and this always happens in every game

Kaioko1 votes

You need to be aware of the type of damage a spell deals and engage accordingly...

Changsty1 votes

Because 40 AD is nearly twice as expensive as 30 armor, so from that alone I assume the other poppy was better than you to begin with.

Gubaguy1 votes

as i said, she went straight AD, and i went pure tank. also cleaver phage is 2350, while deadmans plate is 2800, so... no, she wasnt doign better, in fect id say based on my math she was BEHGIND, and still gutted me like nothing.

Changsty1 votes

Let me do the math for you. Assuming both Poppies are level 9 with max Q, no runes or masteries. One has Deadman's and the other Black Cleaver. (Which incidentally costs 700 more than DMP)

After fully stacking the BC passive, a single instance of Q does 171 damage to you, 10.5% of your max health. A single instance of your Q does 169.5 damage to her, 12% of her max health.

So, no, with a 700 gold lead and a fully stacked passive, full AD Poppy should still be doing less damage to you than you to her. If she was actually behind, you probably ate two or three turret shots without noticing.

Gubaguy1 votes
  1. she didnt have cleaver befor ei had deadmans

  2. i never pushed lane and never even got close to her tower.

  3. regardless of your math, i still took more damage then she did, i cant explain how, or why, but the fact is, i did. Maybe its somethign extremely stupid, like a bug related to an in game name, or location on the map. Theres a problem with MTGO where if you have a 3 letter name, youc ant watch game replays, whose to say thats not whats happeneing here? its a stretch, but there HAS to be a reason for me CONSTANTLY losing despite have every advantage, and its not outplay, you dont outplay someone by bum-rushing them inside a minion wave, not when, mathamatically, they cant hurt you as much as you hurt them.

Rendarkan1 votes

I assume the other poppy was better than you to begin with.

Obviously this was the major factor... Other than not buying a Banshee's Veil.

Shrek Luigi1 votes

Could be variation between your rune/mastery pages and his. The four masteries between the Ferocity and Cunning tree that increase damage dealt by a % do add up, especially on lower-risk bruiser-types with high base damage or %max/remaining HP damage on their abilities. If the enemy Poppy was running Thunderlord's then that's probably what happened--she stuck her neck way the hell up the Cunning tree, which is pretty much viable on any champ right now because of how potent it is.

Rendarkan1 votes

My motto is to build to your situation. you were better off getting banshee's first that way you have that extra buffer on the first q strike then build into Thornmail or even MoM.

Gubaguy1 votes

i fail to see the logic... build MR agasint an all AD champ becuase the passive MIGHT stop 1 single damaging hit... she might jsut as likely pop her W and then id have built an item that does nothign at all. hell, she could jsut ult me point blank to get rid of it, doesnt make sense to take ineffecient items like that.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Banshees is actually not awful there. Her W actually does w lot of damage and Poppys get most flustered in lane when their W doesn't work as expected, leading them to struggle.

Mr Malrin1 votes

in that matchup the opposing poppy has a black cleaver. that chews whatever armor you have up by a ton 6% per hit up to 30%. so with that she brought your armor down to her level and she had more AD so in that trade swing for swing she beats you. I'm unsure of the opponents masteries and runes but if they went either full AD or full tank (most likely full tank) then after the cleaver does it's chewing you end up with less damage and slightly less armor overall and by the looks of it they had you on health as well (did you use your corrupting potion? I bet they did when they went in on you) add all this up you flat out lose a trade if you are just standing there swinging away. in that situation when I seen they completed a cleaver I would have bought some time farming safely and semi counter the cleaver by getting something like item 1043item 3057 or an armor item item 3082 item 3110 that would help you against the cleaver.

Gubaguy1 votes

she didnt have black cleaver that early though, i cant figure out how i always end up being the one who loses matchups i CLEALRY have the advantage in. such as having 30 more armour at the start of the game and yet somehow taking half my HP in 2 hits to a phys champion.

Solidair31 votes

The more armor you stack, the less it is worth!

That being said, I've been seeing tanky poppys succeed more than full ad poppys, but that could just be my experience.

Edit: I should mention I mean over all, not necessarily the laning phase.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

What were the runes like? Maybe she was running a bunch of armor pen

Gubaguy1 votes

i had scaling HP, armour, more armour, even more armour, and MR.

she had AD, more AD, a bit or armour (like... 7 armour), scaling CD, and one single lifesteal.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

What was the cs differential like? Was she up in gold to the point where was a half an item ahead of you?

Gubaguy1 votes

im looking at the game history, she had 1500 less godl then me, and didnt even have cleaver until almost 19 minutes in, meanwhile i had deadmans at 12. theres no logical reason i took such insane damage, and to be clear, i took 14.7k damage, while she only took 7.9k i took nearly TWICE the damage she did, while pure tank, WHILE SHE DIDNT HAVE PEN. somethign, somewhere is fucked up, theres no logical reasoning for my taking THAT much damage while being THAT far ahead. and as i said, this happens EVERY game, when i build tank, it does nothing, when my opponent builds tank i dont do damage, when i build damage i BARELY do damage, when they build damage they gut me in seconds.

EDIT: as an added bonus, i took that damage while also healing 2.5k, and she only healed .1k we did win the game, and i only had the most kills by 1 kill, over THEIR poppy, with the same deaths, and in the end we won becuase she DC'd.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

I'm intrigued by this. I'd be down to set up a custom game and see if we recreate things at all.

Fate Unveiled1 votes

I cannot tell you why this is happening but what I can tell you is that I have all but given up on building tank items. I die in 1 - 2 seconds in a fight regardless of the champions I am against. I tried different build, work on the maths of how a jinx would deal 552 damage with an critical hit when her AD is 119 AD. So you are not alone in this, every game is the same thing.

The answer is generally the same, it is penetration or it is this character. Not sure how 9 magic penetration is supposed to be effective when you have 250+ MR against and entire magic damage comp and still die in 2 seconds.

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