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"Ah, I'm up against a ranged AP champion toplane. What shall I build?"

MrSc0tty··18 votes·1,726 views

"Well since he's most likely trying to gain an early spike of power with the HP, Ap, and mana regen of a Dorans Ring, I should respond with

Doran's Cloak 80 health 3 HP/5 3 Mana/5 Unique Passive: Blocks 10 magic damage from abilities, or 2 damage from each tick of a damage over time ability.

And then I'll be on an even footing!

Oh. I can't build that huh. There is actually no counter-AP Dorans item despite that making every kind of sense. Well, okay, I guess I'll go with the cloth 5 start and just turtle it-what? The only option is a 400g item that gives me only two pots for far less effective HP? And I can't even build that into any item worth a damn out of it? Well, that's not an option.

So my option is...flask and pots. Which ensures that I will lose every trade possible, and get zoned out of CS while my HP regens back over the course of 10 seconds. And then I get to build that great item they put in to stop mindless AP harass, Spirit- what? That got Nerfed? But Banshees is pointless against repeated harass damage.

Well at least I know that I have a few options, right? A pure MR thornmail equivalent, an offensive/defensive Sunfire equivalent, an active focused item for hard engages...oh, so it's just those two items huh. How many item choices does my opponent get? Nine, huh.

Well that must be balanced. I'm sure melee champions are doing just fine at top levels of play or else Riot would do something about there being no defensive item choices."

35 Comments

Lasersniped9 votes

Dear OP,

I understand what you're getting at and I do like your Doran's item idea, but I do have some issues with your post.

  1. Doran's Shielditem 1054 actually does an okay job against Lulu and Gragas, as much of their harass early-game is empowered autos. Moreso Lulu.

  2. High-burst early-game ADs with a gap-closer(Fiora, Xin, Nidalee, Rengar, Wukong), can ruin the day of many AP tops, if they play aggressive early. (Doesn't really solve the problem in competitive play much but can help a lot in solo-queue)

  3. Speaking of which, can we talk about how incredibly efficient hexdrinker is and how good it is for winning all-ins against every mage?

  4. Also, let's not forget about Spectre's Cowlitem 3211 , the item is basically built to counter sustained magic damage. You can rush one early and then just sit on it while you build your other early game items. You don't have to finish it right away to see the benefits.

  5. You can start Ruby Crystal, which rushes into the aforementioned Spectre's Cowl for only 1000g more.

  6. You claim Banshee's veil does nothing against sustained magic damage harass, yet it retains the passive from spectre's cowl that makes cowl a strong anti-harass item in the first place and actually improves it.

  7. Champions like Mundo, Irelia, and Garen, who have hp/regen built into their kit can survive lane against AP-tops long enough to get their items and begin trading back.

  8. Most AP-tops get out-scaled by their bruiser counterparts.

  9. Like all casters, AP-tops have windows in which they are significantly weaker. i.e. when their abilities are on cooldown. It's like the same argument on how to fight Leblanc, Akali, Riven and Rengar. Once they blow their load, turn and fight them.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

Itemization is just bad for AD Bruisers.

Spirit Visage isn't as bad as you make it out to be for full fledged tanks, but it's meh on bruisers since they need damage as well.

I hope they make like 25+ new items in season 5, and not the situational garbage variety like.... item 3060 item 3056 item 3085 item 3131 item 3050 item 3123 item 3124

MrSc0tty3 votes

Itemization is just bad for AD Bruisers.

Spirit Visage isn't as bad as you make it out to be for full fledged tanks, but it's meh on bruisers since they need damage as well.

I hope they make like 25+ new items in season 5, and not the situational garbage variety like.... item 3060 item 3056 item 3085 item 3131 item 3050 item 3123 item 3124

That is, in essence , the problem. An AS bruiser really wants to have around 80AD then defensive stats by late game and currently the only way to do that is Hydra into pure tank right now. Which gives you this crazy glass cannon stage in the early/mid game, or you have to start with like a Sunfire and you get the base damaging meta golem tank bruisers. (That is, in the stages where bruisers are strong).

If instead, we had a bunch of items with 20-30AD and some defensive stats, like Black Cleaver or a non crit chance Atmas, everything would be great and bruisers could have a smooth power curve up into late game.

Zondervain1 votes

I honestly want to know, who'd you fight?

MrSc0tty1 votes

I honestly want to know, who'd you fight?

Chogath Vs Kayle. Even when I landed Q, and used W as I approached, he managed to win trades just on the W+Q+E as I walked back. Of course he just constantly shoved the wave, so bushes and maneuvering wasn't an option, and I couldn't farm without getting chunked. Between the free extra minion gold from his free farming while I got zoned, and the extra pots I needed just to stay in lane, he got an effective two kills on me despite going even in kills in the lane (he dove me with his jungler, and my jungler and I killed him just after I died.)

It's not fun feeling like not only you don't have a way to win the lane, you also don't even get the option to build to counter your opponent.

Tsunday1 votes

If you were Cho and you needed something defensive/offensive against a ranged AP top you could have gone Abyssal. Cho also has good scalings so I'm sure you could have gone even in trades with her if you built something like that.

utDOOM1 votes

Thats actually just because you were against Kayle. Her trading power is enormous, so there is no real reason you should be even trying to trade with a Kayle. Even some ranged champions have trouble with Kayle. Also its usually a good tactic to buy a chalice if you use mana against AP tops (and you can poke back with something). I've won lane before just because of this item. (although i don't know how worth it is ever since the mr nerfs)

Also one more thing...

Earlier you said that:

In mid you can bring Fizz and Kassadin. Every other assassin is at a disadvantage, and forget bruisers or tanks.

In top, you can take Irelia, Renekton, and Gragas. Forget assassins, forget tanks.

A well played Katarina isn't going to be at a disadvantage, and Zed beats Gragas top (i ran tank masteries). Malphite works too.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Like the Doran's Cloak idea. Interesting premise.

Null-Magic Mantle builds into Hexdrinker, which is a fairly interesting item for AD tops. Too bad Maw is too much about the offensive aspect, though (would gladly trade 10-20 of its AD for 10-15 more MR). Especially with the changes to Mercurial Scimitar, which now completely competes with Maw (60-95 AD, 40 MR, Shield vs 80 AD, 45 MR, Cleansing Active with Speed Boost).

Spectre's Cowl is efficient in dealing with a lot of magic damage poke on its own, without necessarily having to upgrade it ASAP. Building into something else after completing it is a possibility.

MrBuffington1 votes

You can always build item 1033 intoitem 3111 , which would at least do something vs Ryze Lulu Gragas , but yea, I agree anti AP itemization is lacking, esp for top lane

The5lacker3 votes

And then you remember that Maw of Malmortius, Wit's End, and Mercurial Scimitar are all things.

MrBuffington1 votes

Right, I was just suggesting Merc Treads for the tenacity, since a lot of AP top laners have annoying CC

Sunfield1 votes

Only hexdrinker is an early game item here and you dont want to build it on just anybody

The5lacker2 votes

Are you an AD scaling champion going up against someone who deals magic damage?

Congratulations, you have access to a cheap AD/MR item that counters burst rotations. Hexdrinker is for you. Or you can build a Specter's Cowl and upgrade it into a Banshee's Veil later. Up to you.

Point is, there are a number of MR items available for bruisers. There does not need to be an "anti mage" Doran's item. There doesn't need to be Doran's items in general, but that's a discussion for another time.

Sunfield1 votes

I think you missed that I wasnt arguing for nor against the case, I was merely stating a fact.

MrSc0tty3 votes

And then you remember that Maw of Malmortius, Wit's End, and Mercurial Scimitar are all things.

So we've got a choice of A) an incredibly stat inefficient item with a passive that rarely if ever helps you actually win a fight, B) an item that gives attack speed, a stat no bruiser besides Jax scales with, or C) an item with a long CD active against an opponent that has usually at least two forms of cc if not more.

The5lacker4 votes

Wow you whine a lot about things that aren't actually a problem. For starters, Maw is gold efficient when you're below 85% health, and becomes the HIGHEST AD ITEM IN THE GAME when below 30% health. And given just about every mage in the game operates on a burst rotation, that 400 extra health on top of that 40 MR? Probably gonna keep you alive unless you've fed the enemy to hell, in which case you deserve to lose. There are a large number of bruisers that scale well with AS. Shyvana and Jax are just mostly the poster children for people who can use Wit's End. And if you burn Merc Scimitar the instant you get CCed by anything without thinking about the optimum time to use it, yeah, you're going to get hit again. Wait for them to chuck their last CC, then cleanse it and beat them up. Again, mages use a burst rotation. Survive the rotation then retaliate.

Hell, I didn't even list tanky MR items like Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage, both of which are very cheap, highly gold efficient hard counters to mages.

But no, you don't start with those so you gotta have a Doran's item because you can't start the game hard countering mages and that makes you sad. Boo fucking hoo. How about rather than whining that the big mean mages are slapping you silly, you try buying one of the half-dozen MR items that are incredibly useful on bruisers, or just build health which hard-counters mages anyways because, again, BURST ROTATION. Just gotta survive it, then you pulp them. Viola.

MrSc0tty5 votes

Wow you whine a lot about things that aren't actually a problem. For starters, Maw is gold efficient when you're below 85% health, and becomes the HIGHEST AD ITEM IN THE GAME when below 30% health. And given just about every mage in the game operates on a burst rotation, that 400 extra health on top of that 40 MR? Probably gonna keep you alive unless you've fed the enemy to hell, in which case you deserve to lose. There are a large number of bruisers that scale well with AS. Shyvana and Jax are just mostly the poster children for people who can use Wit's End. And if you burn Merc Scimitar the instant you get CCed by anything without thinking about the optimum time to use it, yeah, you're going to get hit again. Wait for them to chuck their last CC, then cleanse it and beat them up. Again, mages use a burst rotation. Survive the rotation then retaliate.

Hell, I didn't even list tanky MR items like Banshee's Veil and Spirit Visage, both of which are very cheap, highly gold efficient hard counters to mages.

But no, you don't start with those so you gotta have a Doran's item because you can't start the game hard countering mages and that makes you sad. Boo fucking hoo. How about rather than whining that the big mean mages are slapping you silly, you try buying one of the half-dozen MR items that are incredibly useful on bruisers, or just build health which hard-counters mages anyways because, again, BURST ROTATION. Just gotta survive it, then you pulp them. Viola.

Burst rotation huh.

Tell me , what top lane Mage has a "burst rotation?"

Because it seems to me that toplane mages are sustained damage dealers with escapes.

Let's look at Lissandra. Does she have a burst rotation? Oh sure. REWQ that's some pretty good burst. Is that how she lanes? No. Q any time you approach the minion wave, W into Q every time you engage and either walk or E out. R herself in an emergency for that free DoT zonyas. The burst rotation is just if you're below half HP and she decides that she wants to casually murder you as a break from free farming. Gank her? You wish, she gets double the range of flash on her E, and she'll just W your pathetic melee range asses as you close on her.

Now look at Kayle. Burst? Hell no.

Ryze? What's the cool down on that Q?

Lulu? Vladimir? Teemo even? They're all harass and sustained damage.

Is starting Dorans shield a hard counter against a ranged autoattacker? No, it's a friggin trade off-you give up midgame power to avoid being massively bullied in lane, just like when you buy it against a melee bully. But an early, efficient MR item to compete against Dring doesn't exist. HP hard counters mages, gimme a friggin break, when you can't win all ins, you can't win trades, and you have no way to harass, and they get to free farm, nothing "counters" them except the possibility that they might be retarded enough to make an obvious mistake. Which, judging by the caliber of people who need that kind of advantage in the lane phase to play the game, is I guess a fairly decent thing to bet on.

The5lacker2 votes

And you continue to do nothing but throw a tantrum and throw out "facts" that bear no relevance. AP champs (other than Teemo) are ability reliant. Abilities always have less DPS than autoattacks, because autoattacks are 100% AD scaling, 2-1 second cooldown single target DPS abilities. "Doran's Cloak" is completely and utterly unnecessary in every way, shape, and form, as Doran's Shield COUNTERS HARASSMENT WITH MORE THAN JUST THE DAMAGE REDUCTION. Most notably its rather hefty Hp5. Buy that, or get Null-Magic Mantle and Pots and build one of the number of potent MR items in the game.

Other than Vlad, all of the champion you've listed use mana to cast their abilities, and none of them have terribly strong "escapes." If you lose to them, it's your own fault, because you're incompetent and refusing to change your playstyle or build to accommodate a foe that isn't as dense and simple as you. If you're going to be harassed, build items that counter harassment. Buy a Flask and pots. Ta dah.

YouLostMe2 votes

Hey boy. Lissandra, Lulu, Kayle, and Teemo all have great escapes. Liss has a snare and huge blink, Teemo moves too fast, Lulu has high movement speed boosts and a big slow, and Kayle has friggin invincibility at 0 mana cost. You ever watch LCS? You don't just gank a Lulu in the LCS. You wait till she's burned every spell she has and then you get a 5 seconds window to gank her before she slows you and flies away.

CaptainWednesday1 votes

While I admit, there could be some itemization help for top laners that have to deal with Lissandra, Lulu, and Ryze (and other AP mages) who end up dominating the lane with their superior range, hard poke, and/or better sustain there's no reason to get mad about it. It's a clear and definable weakness about melee top laners. They are easily countered with a ranged mage.

I do not think there needs to be a Doran Item to help compensate for that though. Best thing for you to do is just start Doran Shield (Null Magic Mantle and x2 HP pots works as well) and build a Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius and Mercury Treads, or Spectre's Cowl for more tankiness as fast as you can. You just have to bide your time, attempt to freeze lane or hold it at tower, ask for jungler support if you feel you need it, and DO NOT DIE. It's better to late a ranged AP mage to push the wave and get farm than you trying to to do the same and dying for it.

MrSc0tty3 votes

And then what, may I ask, is the strength of a melee toplaner? What lane do you propose we put melee champions in at all? If the answer is "melee champions are only allowed to jungle" then that's lame, and melee champs need some kind of way to counter ranged champs.

Because as it is currently, melee champs go even against each other, and lose to everything else out there. Ranged autoattackers like Jayce? Counter melee. Ranged spell harassers like Ryze and Lulu? Counter melee. ADC/support lane swap? Counter melee. At this point there is no reason to ever take 90% of the melee champs in this game to a lane.

In mid you can bring Fizz and Kassadin. Every other assassin is at a disadvantage, and forget bruisers or tanks.

In top, you can take Irelia, Renekton, and Gragas. Forget assassins, forget tanks.

That speaks to an absolutely broken system at the moment. They were propped up before by the broken Dorans Shield that basically negated autoattacks, and in mid you had a trio of absolutely obscene assassins in Zed Fizz and Kassadin.

The game is absolutely desperate for some kind is usable defensive itemization that can counter an early game Mage or late game carry. Right now, none exists. And until then, the only place melee champs can be consistently used is the Jungle, whee the plentiful bushes allow them to actually maneuver and engage on ranged champs.

A Dorans Shield start doesn't bring nearly enough effective HP regen to compete (remember: you automatically lose trades thanks to ranged autos, you need a source of regen) especially when it offers no protection against spell harass, their main source of damage. NMM is about as effective a start as taking an amp time vs a Dorans ring in midlane. A Dorans item is designed to give you an early advantage-which would be fine and dandy if the fourth Dorans item actually existed.

CaptainWednesday1 votes

Thing is, once melee bruiser snowball, they become so difficult to stop. Their innate tankiness, high damage (DPS), and CC become so problematic they can single-handedly carry games. Which is why Ghostcrawler said:

We are trying to formalize (for want of a better word) what strengths melee should have to help them offset the huge advantages that ranged champions have. The traditional solutions have been that melee are hard to kill, or they really mess you up if you fail to kite them. Both of those cause a lot of balance problems though. The first means melee slap fights are boring. The second means that melee vs. ranged encounters can be binary -- either the melee zeroes the mage, or the latter escapes.

It's just top lane bruisers are difficult to balance.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Thing is, once melee bruiser snowball, they become so difficult to stop. Their innate tankiness, high damage (DPS), and CC become so problematic they can single-handedly carry games. Which is why Ghostcrawler said:

We are trying to formalize (for want of a better word) what strengths melee should have to help them offset the huge advantages that ranged champions have. The traditional solutions have been that melee are hard to kill, or they really mess you up if you fail to kite them. Both of those cause a lot of balance problems though. The first means melee slap fights are boring. The second means that melee vs. ranged encounters can be binary -- either the melee zeroes the mage, or the latter escapes.

It's just top lane bruisers are difficult to balance.

Yeah. But the real problem is that there's no easy middle ground.

If there was real itemization for them, then they wouldn't need obscene base damage (to facilitate the near full tank build) and they could get the damage lost through item effects. ADCs have items specific to them that boost their damage in controlled ways-IE's crit boost, LWs armor pen, Botrk's active burst. Bruisers generally get only one bonus offensive effect plus maybe Sunfire because they use tank items. Meanwhile on the AP tanky bruiser side of things you get the Liandries, the shred on Abyssal, whatever. Ways to boost offensive output besides pure stat sticks.

If we had something like a more defensive Maw, an Armor+AD item or two, and one other item focused on %HP with maybe some HP of your own, then we could safely have bruisers with less crazy bases or defenses to actually facilitate interesting builds.

Looking through history in this game, there's really never been more than 2 dominant bruiser builds. Which means you have a whole bunch of differently shaped pegs slammed into one hole, and whichever one fits the best is just gonna be the Best Bruiser.

TF buffs? Hi Jax. Cleaver buffs? Wukong is king. Hydra's great? Renekton wins. So on and so forth. If we don't get away from the "one ADC item, four pure tank items " formula, bruisers will never be balanced.

CaptainWednesday1 votes

You make some really good points. I admire that. An early to mid game item to help solve some of the dominance of AP ranged top laners. That being said, what happens when Quinn and Vayne top become a more popular alternative to deal with the snowbally nature of top lane? Make another item?

MrSc0tty1 votes

You make some really good points. I admire that. An early to mid game item to help solve some of the dominance of AP ranged top laners. That being said, what happens when Quinn and Vayne top become a more popular alternative to deal with the snowbally nature of top lane? Make another item?

Here's the thing about Quinn and Vayne (and ad tops like Lucian and Graves)

  1. none of them have both hard cc and waveclear. That means you can keep the lane frozen and use bushes to your advantage and protection unlike vs Lulu or Lissandra whose harass also clears the wave. If it's Graves bringing the wave pressure? He's got no cc so you can catch him.

  2. there are early/midgame items to counter them. Boom, Dorans shield puts you on an even footing with a Dorans Blade start. Or if you're looking to scale, cloth five builds into the midgame niche counter item, Thornmail-which is gonna come in handy later vs the double ADC comp.

These two points basically comprise why these guys aren't such a problem. You can counter build them early (though it does set you back vs AP damage later-which is a trade off and a healthy one gameplay wise) and they aren't as oppressive keeping you constantly tending your wave. They bring the safety of range, without the waveclear of most melee. Ranged APs bring both AND you can't build against them.

Lasersniped1 votes

And then what, may I ask, is the strength of a melee toplaner? What lane do you propose we put melee champions in at all? If the answer is "melee champions are only allowed to jungle" then that's lame, and melee champs need some kind of way to counter ranged champs.

Melee's have the advantage that outside of ADC's they tend to outscale ranged champions simply due to kit and the fact that Riot does recognize that Range is a source of power in a kit. Ranged mages trade late-game scaling for early-game Prowess. Ever try to solo carry a game as Lulu? It isn't easy. Outside of Ryze(who has early-game mana problems you can capitalize on and is very susceptible to ganks), and Vlad(Who is very abuseable until about level 7 or so), top-lane mages either fall off late-game, or get nerfed until they do.

Melee's also tend to have gap-closers in-order to counter these types of champions. Like I stated in my earlier post, playing aggressive in the very early levels with your gap-closer can give you an early advantage and allow you to zone out the opposing top-laner. Most AP-Tops have very weak autoattacks, so force them to auto trade with you. Melee's have better all-ins so make use of it.

NUT IN ME PLEASE1 votes

You must have been up against me. I spam Lissandra top.

The5lacker1 votes

You could just start Longsword Potsx3 and build an early Hexdrinker.

But wait. You want an easy solution because not having a hard-counter button right from the get-go makes the game too hard for you bruisers, doesn't it?

YouLostMe1 votes

Not sure who you like to go top with, but if this is the case then you should probably just build straight offense like a pseudo-assassin. Unless you're fighting Kayle (who counters everyone forever), you will farm better under tower when you have more damage and you can capitalize harder on their mess-ups. Also, ranged AP champs tend to be stupidly prone to ganks so spamming "free kill top" when they push up will likely get your jungler in for a kill.

This is pretty situational. Most of the AP tops are just oppressive in different ways and would be bad as AD champs too. Kayle has burst, speed, and an anti-damage shield, Lulu is oppressive in every single lane she plays in (including support, god I hate her), Gragas actually has some counterplay because his only ranged ability has a significant cooldown (don't pick Darius into him), and Ryze is just bad design all around. Imagine if they gave Draven or Caitlyn bonus tank stats, that's what Lulu and Ryze feel like.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Not sure who you like to go top with, but if this is the case then you should probably just build straight offense like a pseudo-assassin. Unless you're fighting Kayle (who counters everyone forever), you will farm better under tower when you have more damage and you can capitalize harder on their mess-ups. Also, ranged AP champs tend to be stupidly prone to ganks so spamming "free kill top" when they push up will likely get your jungler in for a kill.

This is pretty situational. Most of the AP tops are just oppressive in different ways and would be bad as AD champs too. Kayle has burst, speed, and an anti-damage shield, Lulu is oppressive in every single lane she plays in (including support, god I hate her), Gragas actually has some counterplay because his only ranged ability has a significant cooldown (don't pick Darius into him), and Ryze is just bad design all around. Imagine if they gave Draven or Caitlyn bonus tank stats, that's what Lulu and Ryze feel like.

Well yes, it was in fact Kayle. Ranged AP tops are Kayle, Lulu, Gragas, Ryze, Lissandra. And they're all massively oppressive mostly because there isn't anything to build against that.

YouLostMe1 votes

But it's not their magic damage that is oppressive. Ziggs, Zyra, and Orianna would get crushed in top lane because they don't have enough disengage or tank stats. The oppressive ranged mages top get great tanking power (Gragas, Lulu, Kayle, Ryze) and/or strong disengage (Liss, Kayle, Lulu, Gragas). Bruiser teemo and Quinn area also strong lane bullies with good disengage,but you don't see them top because their teamfighting is super bad. When Gnar is released on live, you will see him follow a similar pattern in lane.

So something like Doran's Cloak wouldn't really solve the problem. It's not like magic damage and DoTs are what are hurting top laners. It's the lack of ability to farm and engage of ranged champions. If you really wanted an item to do that sort of thing, you're better off looking into temporary tenacity effects and spammable ranged damage instead of magic/dot DR.

ChickenWrap1 votes

So you picked Nidalee/Reneton/Shen/Shyvana/Nasus, build a Spirit Visage, and then Mercury Treads huh? How hard did you win lane?

DeluxeOreo1 votes

Depends, if you're a fighter then just build the hex drinkeritem 3155 makes Teemo <- this annoying guy useless pretty much. but if they have heavy cc item 3111 are best. For the most part though, if you play tank you'll need armour so just farm, and if you're a fighter you'll need damage, so just farm. Ryze nurf nurf nurf

FyshinaTux1 votes

Itemization in this game is lacking overall... I don't know why it's lacking in most areas, but we won't likely have Mana + MR items anytime soon because of Singed and Ryze.

MrSc0tty2 votes

Itemization in this game is lacking overall... I don't know why it's lacking in most areas, but we won't likely have Mana + MR items anytime soon because of Singed and Ryze.

I feel like Itemization is the thing that should cover ALL avenues-and if there are problem champs, they can be Nerfed. Itemization should only be Nerfed if a particular item becomes an auto include.

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