Apart from his laning safety, Zed is the most healthy assasssin in the game. How to fix laning?

Theorchero··7 votes·890 views

BEFORE YOU RANDOMLY DOWNVOTE, READ AND CONSIDER.

Why Zed is a Healthy Assassin

The definition of an assassin is a champion that is capable of eliminating priority, squishy targets quickly. They use a combination of bursty damage and mobility spells in order to reach their target and dive the backline. Before, certain assassins were designed to kill you before you had a chance to react.

Thus, they had poor Counterplay. Riot and players alike hate champions with limited or no counterplay. Leblanc, for example. She used to have higher ratios on her Q/R'd Q and a silence. So all she had to do when she got fed (if you were a squishy adc) is dash towards you, Q and R point and click massively damaging nukes that also silence you so you couldn't use any followup abilities to save yourself, like heals or dashes, all the while instantly porting back to a place of safety.

Rengar has gotten gutted numerous times because his instantaneous kill from stealth has always been his problem, while also being his identity. They worked around that, adding indicators and also making part of his kit less reliable, like making his E a skillshot.

Zed, however, doesn't have these problems. His entire combo, is overall much slower and entirely skillshot based. You dodge the skillshots and he can't even damage you. Don't downvote just yet.

Zed's ult used to be instant, and he used to be able to instantly switch back to his ulti shadow so he could combo with complete safety. That got removed. His ulti was made longer (also made him untargetable, so while it gave more notice it also gave him a higher skill ceiling as it lets him use his ult to dodge certain abilities) while also adding a delay to his W instant cast.

But you see, in order for Zed to assassinate you, it takes time. He has to Ult you, then (after a significant delay, allowing you to reposition towards your team or a place of safety) he needs to land all of his abilities in order to bring you into the kill zone of his ulti before he can go back to his ulti shadow. But that entire time, he's in melee range, and you know exactly where he is going to pop up, behind you. You know what's going to happen, he's going to pop up behind you and then attempt to place a W shadow near you, use his E for the slow, then Q to hit you with three Q's, auto attack you, then pop back to his shadow.

In all of that time, if you couldn't take advantage of his extremely telegraphed play, then you deserved to lose the fight. If you have a mobility spell, save it for after lands from his ult, creating distance between you. If you're a shorter range mid laner, take exhaust. Use flash. Dodge his shurikens. Etc. He has counterplay because he telegraphs his intentions and once he's in, he's in for a guaranteed 1 second or so, and you know exactly where that motherfucker is gonna pop up. If he misses his shurikens, he can't kill you. Plain and simple. His ulti will tickle by itself.

I'm not even going to include the most obvious and broken thing about countering Zed: Two items do it completely. One, while it is being removed soon, does it without even immobilizing the person.

The Problem with Zed.

Zed's problem has never been his assassination ability or his safety because his capability to dash is telegraphed, short ranged, and is tied to his offensive abilities. His problem is his lane safety.

How, specifically?

His passive. His passive lets him last hit with incredible ease that is matched by no other champion in the game. Used properly in conjunction with his Q and shadow/E combo lets him push waves extremely quickly early, gaining a level advantage while burning no significant resources for it, because he has energy.

I am okay with him using his shadow to waveclear. The reason being is that it's a very long cooldown early (After its duration, it's an 18 second cooldown at rank 1) and it's tied to his safety. If he uses his shadow to wave clear he's extremely vulnerable to being all inned or ganked, especially since he runs out of energy with this combo extremely often.

The problem with Zed's waveclear is how easily and quickly he pushes waves with his passive executing minions.

Okay, so what's the solution? I suggest the following changes:

  • Zed's passive no long executes minions.

  • Zed's E now does 25% reduced damage to minions. However, if both Zed and his Shadow E the same minions, the penalty is removed and it deals 25% MORE damage.

This makes it so it's way riskier for him to waveclear. He has to be in melee range of the entire wave, primarily between casters and melee minions. This reinforces that his waveclear with ease should have risk. This does not significantly impact his farming potential after eliminating a target because he can rapidly spam it without worrying about dying, but makes it so that if he wants to waveclear, he has to commit his shadow and is rewarded for doing so.

14 Comments

Adolf Hit R5 votes

Prevent his passive from working on minions. Generally reduce the amount of damage his abilities do and increase the amount of damage he gets from hitting a target twice with the same one so that his poke is worse but his all-in does about the same damage it does now.

WoonStruck3 votes

If he's the most healthy assassin, why, after QQS does not remove his ult, is he going to be the most broken champ in the game?

That doesn't even affect laning.

If you can't argue that point properly, all of your argument goes out the window.

Assassins are a broken concept. You can't have healthy assassins. They will always either offer way too much or way too little.

How is Zed healthy if literally all he has to do to kill you is ult->W->Q->E->AA if you aren't an armor tank? Then he blinks out for free.

The entire combo takes less than half a second, and he's subject to no risk unless his target's team is literally on top of them. Which is something everyone is vulnerable to. That's not viable counterplay, because that was the only 'counterplay' to Rengar, who was considered unhealthy for that very reason. That means Zed is just as unhealthy.

I'd even say Rengar is healthier, although still not healthy himself. He's forced to jungle because his laning pattern is so abusable. He kills someone and can't get out, unlike Zed.

Zed is a no-risk pick with far too many no-risk plays he can perform that many others often can't even begin punish, specifically outside of Pro play where he's still a problem time and time again.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

{quoted}

If he's the most healthy assassin, why, after QQS does not remove his ult, is he going to be the most broken champ in the game?

That doesn't even affect laning.

If you can't argue that point properly, all of your argument goes out the window.

Assassins are a broken concept. You can't have healthy assassins. They will always either offer way too much or way too little.

It's sad that most of boards doesn't grasp the concept of balance leavers. If riot makes QSS not negate his ult then they can finally hit his laning power so that is less toxic. Like I get it you are biased as hell and that will never change but riot is finally finding a way to give you the nerfs you want. Be happy!

WoonStruck2 votes

Balance levers mean nothing if the concept of the character is near-instant gap-close paired with 100-0 burst. There's little to no interaction for the target.

That's what assassins do. That what everyone describes assassins as.

Riot having to tune him is proof that he's not healthy. That's WHY they have to tune him.

It seems like its you that doesn't grasp the concept of balance levers. They wouldn't have to utilize any if he wasn't unhealthy.

Besides, its not even nerfs I want for him. If he gets nerfed significantly, he won't be played, which isn't good either.

Its your bias that's speaking not mine. I'm using logic, not bias. If you want to prove otherwise, explain how the concept of what assassins are in this game is a healthy and interactive role in League.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

No champion in this game is truly healthy and they never will be. Your view of zed is simply one that doesnt exist his gap closer has a .75 second then he has to wait 3 seconds for the rest of the damage to even apply and then his burst is only 100-0 if he is fed as hell and yes your target does get to interact with him but I'm not gonna waste time on explaining it cause the fact you even typed that means you will never understand it. You literally called a guaranteed 4 second delay from him initiation till death "instant"

That's what you describe assassins as not everyone. Wait let me rephrase not the people who are actually using logic.

Riot has tuned literally every champion in this game. They have to because as other champions change some become weaker and some become stronger. If getting changed makes you unhealthy you literally are claiming the entire game is unhealthy.

You havent used a shred of logic at all. You aren't even attempting to. You want me to explain how all of league interacts with assassins? That's a post I could never hope to type as it would be a research paper.

The Last Ballad2 votes

Zed is not an instant death assassin. Have you tried to ult in on a Malzahar with his ult up? You get there, maybe get a spell off or two, then get stared down(literally) until your kill window has closed. Or a Lissandra? One of you is going to be encased in ice until the ult is gone.

And just because they have to tune a champ doesn't mean they are unhealthy. They had to tune Galio the last patch, yet when was the last time you heard someone complain about playing against a Galio? I have yet to hear one. What they did was remove the ability of a mr item to decrease the effectiveness of a cc-less ad assassin. Which makes sense to me. You should not be even tempted to buy mr against an ad champ, when they do not have any cc.

And assassins are a interactive role, unless your entire team forgot to pick ANY champs with cc, then you are screwed purely because you didn't get anyone who can counter assassins.(and if you don't have cc, then you probably don't have any tanks or mages either) Assassins can delete squishies, but they are squishies themselves. So if they are caught out, they will die. That is the point of a "high risk, high reward" champ.

Penguin Eclipse3 votes

{quoted}

It's sad that most of boards doesn't grasp the concept of balance leavers. If riot makes QSS not negate his ult then they can finally hit his laning power so that is less toxic. Like I get it you are biased as hell and that will never change but riot is finally finding a way to give you the nerfs you want. Be happy!

That's probably because QSS isn't a balance lever and Riot claiming otherwise is just a poor excuse on their part. And changing how it works doesn't fix anything nor will it allow them to fix anything. Zed needs to be addressed at every point in the game. That can't be done without a complete rework because his kit is flawed and toxic.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEUpbecG,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-23T17:55:06.897+0000)

That's probably because QSS isn't a balance lever and Riot claiming otherwise is just a poor excuse on their part. And changing how it works doesn't fix anything nor will it allow them to fix anything. Zed needs to be addressed at every point in the game. That can't be done without a complete rework because his kit is flawed and toxic.

This change would allow them to address him at every point holy shit it isnt rocket science. One of zeds strongest points is in laning when you dont have QSS. So riot can nerf that which would most likely come from his Q poke. Now that QSS does not negate his ult. They can say okay zed's laning is worse now because you cant negate him with a button should he get ahead. Qss is a balance lever for this very reason. You cant nerf zed and then leave a counter that strong and cheap in game and think oh that's a good thing cause he used to be stronger. Then you get a case of Hey zed is weaker and if he manages to get ahead well a bit of gold and ive made him worthless!

Penguin Eclipse3 votes

{quoted}

This change would allow them to address him at every point holy shit it isnt rocket science. One of zeds strongest points is in laning when you dont have QSS. So riot can nerf that which would most likely come from his Q poke. Now that QSS does not negate his ult. They can say okay zed's laning is worse now because you cant negate him with a button should he get ahead. Qss is a balance lever for this very reason. You cant nerf zed and then leave a counter that strong and cheap in game and think oh that's a good thing cause he used to be stronger. Then you get a case of Hey zed is weaker and if he manages to get ahead well a bit of gold and ive made him worthless!

And what about his ult? You know, the thing that made people buy an anti-mage item to protect themselves from an ad assassin?

There are a lot of things that counter Zed's ult. The hourglass. Taric's Ult. QSS is not a lever. The majority of champions don't even buy it and almost no one bought it outside of the Crucible line before Riot got all buff happy with adc items.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEUpbecG,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-23T19:07:17.730+0000)

And what about his ult? You know, the thing that made people buy an anti-mage item to protect themselves from an ad assassin?

There are a lot of things that counter Zed's ult. The hourglass. Taric's Ult. QSS is not a lever. The majority of champions don't even buy it and almost no one bought it outside of the Crucible line before Riot got all buff happy with adc items.

Yes there are a lot of things that counter Zed ult. The issue is you also have something that you can buy on literally anything and the Zed player has no real way to stop you from pushing that button.

How do you justify nerfing someone to manageable levels while a counter that strong is available?

In that one situation of zed ulting you it is even better to have than zhonyas as you get to remove his ult and keep fighting and riot regards zhonyas as one of the most powerful actives in the game. QSS isnt just an Anti mage item its active works against ALL CC and ALL debuffs.

With the change to QSS i instead of seeing Zed, the guy with insane poke and an ult that forces you to buy X item we could have Zed, the guy with okay but not overbearing poke and then an ult that while strong actually requires more gameplay from both sides and not just a question of did you buy Qss? This would be the case should they nerf him and this QSS change actually lets them hit that poke as much as they want because him being negated if he ever gets ahead wont be a case that all champion in the game can get on top of CC. I'm so happy to see that QSS change purely because I know riot has gotten rid of one of their biggest reasons for not nerfing zed.

The Last Ballad2 votes

The majority of champions don't even buy it

And that should affect how the item is balanced? If there is something that fully counters an ability, you need the ability to be buffed so that it still has some worth even including that item, not nurfed so that when someone does have sense to buy it, Zed becomes worthless. With QSS you can negate his ult, so the ult needs to be worthy enough to use even with it having a chance to be negated. Without the "instant removal" button Zed's ult can be nurfed because (in most cases) it will be more consistent. Not to mention having to buy a mr item to counter an ad assassin makes no sense, whereas Zhonya's is an armor item, and you should expect someone to buy ar against ad.

And as for Taric's ult, Taric needs to have activated his ult between 2 seconds before, and .5 seconds after Zed activates his ult. So either the Zed needs to be dumb in order to ult in on someone with impending invulnerability, or Taric needs to have godlike reflexes in order to activate his ult within .5 seconds of Zed activating his(and .51 isn't going to cut it) So by my standards, Taric's ult is not a true counter to Zed's. A counter needs to be able to easily undo, or prevent, an ability. So Yasuo's wind wall would be a counter to any projectile, since if any of them hit the wall they are destroyed. The timing of Taric's ult has to be outrageously precise in order to negate Zeds, so choosing him to counter Zed would not be a good idea. Kayle would be a better support counter, with her instant invulnerability. Why did you choose Taric of all people for your choice of counters? Kayle, Zilean, Bard can forcibly, and nearly instantly, protect an ally from Zed's ult, not to mention anyone with self targeted invulnerability can/would be safe. (there's a reason Lissandra is a counter to Zed) Even Soraka would be a better choice to counter him, what with her aoe silence, her powerful heal, and her ult that heals for more by the time the ally would die by the ult.

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

Want to make him healthy? Make him use mana. Tune from there. So many of his problems would be solved if he had to manage his mana use.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Squishy? The skill shot that is up every 6 seconds less after cdr spamable and can have an extendable second angle you cant do fuk in lane versus zed but dance around his shiruken and miss all your farm or get your farm and eat shiruken. fuking ult that has a different damage time so you cant counter build it and it with the rest of his kit and amplifies damage taken

Zane Zephyr1 votes

The passive doesn't even need to be removed for minions. I think just giving it a cooldown would be good enough.

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