Kassadin and Veigar walk into a bar

Commando Yi·Feb 27, 2015·73 votes·6,966 views

They order drinks with their new friend Urgot

Kass Win rate http://i59.tinypic.com/15q4xup.jpg

Veigar Win rate http://i59.tinypic.com/ne936g.jpg

Urgot Win rate http://i60.tinypic.com/28ani2c.jpg

96 Comments

ConturbatioFeb 27, 201565 votes

Their drinks were served by Azir because "The order is given"

ïîïMar 1, 20153 votes

ha ha.... I see what u did their Azir

"So, a pigeon walks into a bar."

DustyElLionFeb 27, 201539 votes

Sub 40 win rate is a terrible feeling. I played a game with him and the reduced range makes me feel like a goddamn cripple of an Assassin. I don't even have the damage when I do get to the target either.

Post Re-work Kass never outright killed someone with one spell rotation. If he was on par or fed he would get them pretty damn low, but he's no LB or Zed.

Actually why play Kass over LB now?

It Is I EmotoFeb 27, 20157 votes

No reason. Kass was a nice Champion against skillshot depending champs, and now.. he's really bad at it. He has no way of sticking to his targets wich is horrible, and I played him on the pbe, and he feels incredibly weak. Yeah people were talking about mobility creep and stuff, but WHY kassadin?? it's his core theme, it's his ultimate, of course its supposed to be overwhelming, because he gets it at lvl 6, while leblanc, zed, etc etc recieve them much earlier (Well akali is an exception since she's kinda like Kass)

SmokinSickStyleFeb 27, 201542 votes

Just a question, if you take tier 2 boots and one movement speed item will you outrun your ult?

If so that ult is just useful to hop over walls lol.

At least they should have removed the cast time of it.

Kass was nerfed because it's unfair that you have slipperinyess, mobility and huge burst damage all in one.

It doesn't Leblanc really Leblanc make Leblanc any Leblanc sense.

I'm glad Leblanc they Leblanc nerfed Leblanc Kassadin Leblanc , now Leblanc we Leblanc can Leblanc truly play a balanced game.

Kitten of EvilFeb 27, 201515 votes

I Nidalee completely Nidalee agree Nidalee .

SirsirFeb 27, 201510 votes

Your name really suits your comment

Mecha MaIphiteFeb 27, 20158 votes

"Huge burst" Kassadin

I guess they better nerf Shen too, the huge burst from his q is just so unhealthy.

georgiotatosFeb 28, 20152 votes

Leona such Nidalee balanced Akali much Fizz game Cassiopeia many Katarina skill Vayne wow Zed

BustexFeb 28, 20152 votes

"it's unfair that you have slipperinyess, mobility and huge burst damage all in one." Yet zed is still in the game xD

SmokinSickStyleFeb 28, 20151 votes

That's why i said it doesn't make any sense, literally any other mid nowadays is hard to focus\catch and have burst...

It's just Rito making an exception to the rule and nerf Kassassin just because (It seems) they hate this poor guy.

BustexFeb 28, 20151 votes

Yea i see your point but i dont think kass had a big burst as you might imagine compared to some other champs.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 20154 votes

Maybe try out DPS Kassadin with a Nashor's Tooth and more tank stuff instead of trying to burst. I haven't tried it myself, but it could be about all he is good for now that his burst is super low and he can't really move around as much.

KaisadiIIaFeb 27, 20155 votes

Then you'll be playing a fighter with no real utility besides a 1 second slow whose only function is to escape from dying.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 20153 votes

Well the real question now is which is better: An AP DPS fighter without any real utility or an AP assassin without burst or range or real mobility?

Blacksteel15Feb 27, 201510 votes

Unfortunately, the answer is both cases is "Pick a champion that's better at that role".

WarlockLawFeb 28, 20151 votes

I saw somebody carry pretty well with an ad mana tank build. He had muramana frozen gauntlet and a bunch of tank items, I have no idea why it worked as I wasn't in that game but that sounds similar to your idea

OleandervineFeb 27, 201524 votes

Actually, Kassadin walks into the bar, Veigar walks under it.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 201531 votes

Veigar "Is that a short j— I'm not even gonna say it, I can't even punish your soul for it anymore."

Sad Veigar is sad :(

KaisadiIIaFeb 27, 201519 votes

Kassadin and Veigar walk into a bar

Kassadin and Veigar LIMP* into a bar.

TecToNiiCFeb 27, 201515 votes

Syndra : "Glad you guys made it!"

Elise : "Since we are all gonna be here a while, who is buyin the next round?"

A Superb VillainFeb 27, 20159 votes

Veigar "I was a support for a while, so I picked up a few coins." item 3302

Learn 2 SwimFeb 27, 20155 votes

Azir will get buffed since he is the new gen hyper CC champ. Veigar will be ignored and left to rot. Kass will be reworked for the 12th time since hes hyper mobile.

junglerboy16Feb 27, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Learn 2 Swim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e8NyoiA8,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-02-27T19:14:23.230+0000)

Azir will get buffed since he is the new gen hyper CC champ. Veigar will be ignored and left to rot. Kass will be reworked for the 12th time since he is WAS hyper mobile.

I fixed your typo.

ProfirixFeb 27, 20155 votes

I agree that the nerfs do not appear to be well thought out, but lets be fair: you are using win rate as a tool to describe champion balance the FIRST day that win rates have been reported since the nerf. It really is not a reliable tool to use at this point.

AlorasenceFeb 27, 20151 votes

You are right. And you deserve my upvote.

BUT...

I will be suprised if any of the three champions we're talking about can get over a 45% win rate when the dust is settled.

Veigar and Kassadin especially will probably not recover for months and months because they occupy very oversaturated positions in the meta.

Veigar is a mage. But there are about a dozen mages who serve a similar function but who can do it faster, better, more reliably, and more efficiently than he can. Lux, Xerath, Liss, and Annie just to name a couple.

I don't even have time to list the number of assassins that will totally outclass Kassadin now.

I suppose time will tell. For the record, I'd like to be wrong.

Sozan5Feb 27, 20151 votes

I actually think that Kassadin will get over his nerfs after a while. He isn't THAT weak (he is certainly weaker than he was before, but I wouldn't say he's bottom-tier).

Now, Veigar is another story. He is pretty terrible right now and he needs some compensation for the E nerf. I'd say that increasing the AoE on his W would be a step in good direction. Possibly to nearly the same AoE as inside of the cage (so that only way to dodge his W would be stepping into the cage wall and getting stunned).

And Zilean seems pretty weak too. His late game is better but his early and mid is crippled.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20151 votes

Zilean seems about the same after his rework. Yes, I know, you don't have the guaranteed bomb damage x2 but at least he now has a stun (~>1 second is good enough, since it isn't an ultimate or anything). His speed boost/slow is pretty good, once you hit 40% CDR you can have a constant speed boost/slow for 1-2 allies/enemies. Veigar needs some compensation in other areas to put him on par with his E-delay, that way he can be more about catching people in his cage and making it a mistake to not get out quicker (such as damage amplifying while inside/stunned, or no cast time for the placement). I still like Zilean, he's just really underplayed right now. I never played Kassadin, but I feel the pain of others with his nerf. I hate how LB can literally jump in, almost 100-0, jump out, and leave you thinking "uh... Now i need to back because she bursted me within half a second o_o" Then do it again within 7 seconds thanks to her low CD's.

Sozan5Feb 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zilean seems about the same after his rework. Yes, I know, you don't have the guaranteed bomb damage x2 but at least he now has a stun (~>1 second is good enough, since it isn't an ultimate or anything).

Have you tried hitting it though? It's really tough to hit both bombs.

His speed boost/slow is pretty good, once you hit 40% CDR you can have a constant speed boost/slow for 1-2 allies/enemies.

This is just wrong. Even with max CDR he cannot keep up his slow/speed up constantly anymore, since the new E always have 2,5s duration (with max CDR and W he can use E every 3,6 seconds) unlike the old 5,5s.

Also, this is a really hard hit for both his slow and speed up. Just to show you some numbers:

Let's assume E is cast on ally/enemy with 340 movement speed with tier 2 boots = 385 movement speed

Old E on Ally: 528 MS (Effective speed up 37%) New E on Ally: 613 MS (Effective speed up 59%)

Old E on Enemy: 196 MS (Effective slow 49%) New E on Enemy: 112 MS (Effective slow 71%)

For MS boost it is somewhat helpful, yes (but even then not so much). But for slow? With below 200 MS you are not going to dodge anything (except by using mobility spells) and old Zilean could keep it constantly (even if enemy had tenacity boots).

The numbers look nice on the skill, but thanks to both speed up soft caps and slow soft and hard cap the difference isn't all that big (and you have only 45% of the old duration).

Also, don't forget that his ultimate/W was nerfed pretty heavily too (W doesn't decrese the ult CD anymore, meaning that it will have always higher CD than it used to - especially if you build CDR, which you should).

Now, to clarify - I don't really main or mained Zilean at any point in the time (didn't even think to pick him in anything else than blind pick to be honest). Just don't like when they act like it's a buff to him, when in fact it's a nerf.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20151 votes

I get what you mean, but now that we aren't limited to having his bombs targeted, now he is more mobile as a whole, as opposed to stuff like, say, Ryze and his whole kit being targetted on all of his abilities, albeit they are strong, it puts him in a very unfavorable position... Being headfirst into the entire enemy team, for example. Nerf to his damage and reliability of damage output, buff to overall presence and utility (2.5 seconds is still a lot of time for a speed boost). Still, Zilean's ultimate still makes the guy pretty unkillable...

Sozan5Feb 28, 20151 votes

Yes, 2,5 seconds is a decent speed boost. However it is only slightly stronger than the old one that lasted 5,5 seconds - especially if you want to speed someone else as well.

His ultimate is now on a long cooldown. You could've (and it was usually the case, or at least close to) had 28s cooldown on his R since rank 1. Now, you are locked to 72/54/36 s with max CDR. I'd say that's a nerf to overall presence, since this is what Zilean was best at.

And as far as presence goes - it is rather unchanged. Old Zilean would travel 5245 units in 10 seconds on average while new Zilean travels 5380 units in 10 seconds so the difference there is very slight (and that's on max rank - before max rank the old Zilean have an upper hand). However, if he would be traveling with another ally - then old Zilean would travel 4900 units per 10 seconds with his ally on average, while new one would only travel 4350 units per 10 seconds with his ally on average.

In conclusion -

Buffs: Stun added (1,5 s max to a decent AoE) Q is a skillshot that grants vision and creates a control zone when dropped on the ground (kinda like Ziggs E) E gives more burst speed and consistent speed to a single target on max rank

Nerfs: Q is no longer reliable (really, have you guys played him after his changes? It's terrible skillshot to aim) Double Q is no longer instant Q deals less damage AA range was nerfed by 50 units E gives less on lower ranks (especially visible on rank 1) and gives less consistent speed to more than single target R is on longer cooldown (the biggest change)

So, I'd say that in the end his early and mid game and nerfed pretty significantly and his late game is very slightly buffed.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20151 votes

R's cooldown was lowered from 180 seconds to 120/90/60 seconds. They changed his W to not lower the cooldown on his ultimate, but either way it cuts the cooldown by 2/3 at the late game, not adding in CDR.

Everything else, I agree with you.

Sozan5Feb 28, 20151 votes

The problem is - it means that cooldown is higher on his ultimate at all ranks. The W cooldown reduction was a major factor in the Ultimate cooldown.

The 28s cooldown I mentioned a few times is the exact minimal cooldown that can be reached as soon as you have maxed out W and CDR (you don't have to max R to reach it, since the cooldown wasn't decreased with ranks). That means from levels 12-13 you would have the minimal cooldown (since CDR is something that you should build first on Zilean) - and that is a major nerf. At that point you have rank 2 of ultimate with 90 second CD (54 seconds with max CDR) - while old Zilean had it on 28s cooldown. He was having his ultimate nearly twice as much throughout the mid-game. To be fair, in late game it is pretty close (36s New vs 28s Old) and of course old Zilean had to burn 50 mana every 3,6s to maintain this cooldown (luckily for him most items with CDR also give mana regeneration) and also couldn't die in that time (which wasn't very hard with ult ready every half of a minute).

I think you severly underestimate the value of Old Zilean W.

RipReviveFkRitoFeb 27, 20154 votes

They really want us to play cancerous champions (hello Zed Leblanc Kalista ) so they kill everything else.

shadecrapperFeb 27, 20154 votes

They nurfed kass because of him being a season 4 monster, only problem... he was pretty balanced in season 5!! His riftwalk was the only reason I liked playing him, but now? They should have nurfed the base range but increased it with additional stacks or level. That would be cool, it to just cut it in half... thanks riot. Killed another mid champion.

I Main SwainFeb 27, 20154 votes

ok, if you're going to start it like a joke, you gotta make it a joke. now im disappointed

you could have at least said "they order drinks wherever they want, because there are counters everywhere"

libraryseraph Feb 27, 20151 votes

LeeSin walks into a bar he can't order anything because there's no counter

I Main SwainFeb 27, 20152 votes

Yorick too has ghad many a sober night

Rew711Feb 27, 20152 votes

Let us not forget Zac who went to 39%.

FLY SlotmachinerFeb 27, 20152 votes

I haven't tried Kassadin yet, but I have played Veigar, now I enjoy his Q so much now; what I don't like is simply the E delayed, but I got used to it, so I planned accordingly. I tried Veigar of course only in normal, and I was around 12/0; I went into the game expecting something much worst, which is what we need to do at the moment. We need to treat them like a troll pick for the time being till their compensations arrive(hopefully) If they can take out the cast time in his E, I think that the delay will be okay in my opinion.

CloakedbugFeb 27, 20152 votes

I don't know if I can say anything that hasn't already been said. I am so freaking upset by these changes.

I was a main veigar, bought the final boss skin, enjoyed having to play a less than perfect champion. He already had an incredible range of difficult (literally face-stomping) matchups to go against.

His Q couldnt be used for farming in lane phase (and still cant) as you must use it for trades.. for absolutely no reason it is now made harder to hit with, and has increased CD endgame.

His W was entirely reliant on his E to land, and now might as well be an empty slot.

His E...I want to literally walk to the guy who proposed the delay and slap him, hard. Better yet, force him to play only the re-made champion for a month. Veigar is a slow, escapeless, non maneuverable mid - entirely reliant on a single split-second ability to defend himself, who now can't even do that.

Veigar went from my favorite (albeit not totally viable) champion, to my most despised. I want a refund on my skins.

Ad InfinitumFeb 27, 20152 votes

Azir's there too. and i miss him. i want my pigeon back

KatOwOMar 1, 20152 votes

please buff Kassadin . I love playing him, but he's really weak

B3ERFeb 27, 20151 votes

Hey Commando, haven't seen you around in a while. How you doin', man. What do you make of this jungle?

Commando YiFeb 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Hey Commando, haven't seen you around in a while. How you doin', man. What do you make of this jungle?

changing the cost of upgrading the machete was the single worst change i've seen this season because it widens the gap significantly between the weak junglers who could only clear 3 camps before recalling to upgrading and the strong junglers who have the option of clearing 3 camps -> ganking or doing a full clear of the jungle

aside from that the main problem i see is most people don't put much thought into their jungling patterns

when i'm smurfing in gold i try to give pointers to the junglers on my team on where to start and what paths to take but people laugh at me and call me a noob because "you're supposed to start krugs always" or "you're supposed to bottom side always"

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20152 votes

Yeah, happens too often. I feel like the jungle is now such a difficult position to do good in (especially when it's with an off-meta jungler) that people barely want to touch it. Now jungle has joined the support spot in the positions people don't want to play (then again, I do TB kind of often, so it's a bother to wait for people when I'm not doing one of those roles).

Inarus LynxFeb 28, 20151 votes

I used to main Jungle with the occasional mid at the off chance no one wanted to mid. Now I don't see the point of playing the jungle and have more fun just maining mid.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20151 votes

It seems people want to do the actual lanes rather than doing roles like support and jungle, but the jungle isn't really like it was earlier where literally ANYONE could jungle, but now there are so many things like sustain and burst and stuff like that where other junglers either don't have them, or people just refuse to use them because of how low on the tier list they are.

End youFeb 27, 20151 votes

The issue is that no one is playing these champions according to their new specs.

You play the old way on a NEw champion and expect to win... Typical Civilians

Commando YiFeb 27, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=End you,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e8NyoiA8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-27T16:18:24.751+0000)

The issue is that no one is playing these champions according to their new specs.

You play the old way on a NEw champion and expect to win... Typical Civilians

sounds good but the problem is, this is the new way to play veigar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNQC2ruFSEg