So you want to change her from a short range mage with reliable abilities to a short range mage with unreliable ablities - say skill shot q, throw a delay on w and r and set a time restriction on how long she can hold her passive stun
my question for you is, once you turn her into a short range mage with unreliable abilities, what incentive would there be to pick her over long range mages like xerath, lux, ahri, azir, syndra, etc ?
Miraweave30 votesThey'd have to overbuff her to the point of absurdity.
I mean hell, even if the only thing they do is make Tibbers into a skillshot, they'd have to buff his ambient damage by so much to make her still relevant that she'd just be killing people with the bear instead of the nuke.
Honestly I feel like for the most part Annie is fine. Her range is incredibly limited barring flash which she can only use once every five minutes. She's annoying to be sure, but most champions can either outrange her or are tanky enough to survive her, and the ones that can't are the melee glass cannons who she's kind of a necessary counter to. She keeps high mobility champions in check and I think overall that it's a good thing.
Commando Yi15 votes[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-21T16:57:21.935+0000)
They'd have to overbuff her to the point of absurdity.
I mean hell, even if the only thing they do is make Tibbers into a skillshot, they'd have to buff his ambient damage by so much to make her still relevant that she'd just be killing people with the bear instead of the nuke.
Honestly I feel like for the most part Annie is fine. Her range is incredibly limited barring flash which she can only use once every five minutes. She's annoying to be sure, but most champions can either outrange her or are tanky enough to survive her, and the ones that can't are the melee glass cannons who she's kind of a necessary counter to. She keeps high mobility champions in check and I think overall that it's a good thing.
just to be clear, both her R and W are skill shots - they can in fact miss
Miraweave5 votes[{quoted}](name=Commando Yi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-21T17:42:57.522+0000)
just to be clear, both her R and W are skill shots - they can in fact miss
I always whiff the first Tibbers of the game. It means I'm going to win.
Kitten of Evil9 votesYour enemies will suffer a grizzly fate!
EndlessSorcerer13 votesThe first one is the warning shot.
If they are stupid enough to stay in the game afterwards, then they deserve whatever is coming to them.
PaperMache71 votesThere's a difference between a non targeted ability and a skill shot, she can miss, but you can't dodge.
Commando Yi1 votes[{quoted}](name=GodKilleR 999,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2015-09-22T17:41:51.209+0000)
There's a difference between a non targeted ability and a skill shot, she can miss, but you can't dodge.
you're gonna have to elaborate here, what do you mean?
PaperMache72 votesFor example if Lux sends a Q your way you can side step it. If you're within the range of annie none of her abilities can be dodged, the only way you're not gonna get it is if you know she's gonna use it and flash/use mobility before she even press the button.
Commando Yi5 votes[{quoted}](name=GodKilleR 999,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=00010000000200000000,timestamp=2015-09-22T17:56:21.444+0000)
For example if Lux sends a Q your way you can side step it. If you're within the range of annie none of her abilities can be dodged, the only way you're not gonna get it is if you know she's gonna use it and flash/use mobility before she even press the button.
if you are in range of annie and you are squishy you've already made a terrible mistake ._.
i do not believe in accommodating poor decision making
PaperMache71 votesOnce she has her ult her kill range is increased enough that very few can actually survive the lane without getting one shotted. And before that she can easily kill you unless you decide that farm is not something you actually want.
Commando Yi3 votes[{quoted}](name=GodKilleR 999,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=0001000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-22T18:09:53.918+0000)
Once she has her ult her kill range is increased enough that very few can actually survive the lane without getting one shotted. And before that she can easily kill you unless you decide that farm is not something you actually want.
annie isn't exactly a threat to these champs ult or no ult lux, xerath, ahri, zed, ziggs, orianna, zyra, velkoz, brand, karthus, galio, cho'gath, swain, diana, malzahar, cass
jungler intervention is another matter though it applies both ways
you don't win games on annie by winning your lane because most of her matchups aren't good, you win by roaming top/mid/jungle and dropping tibbers on someone
SSJTribe6 votesThey just want her removed I think
Kitten of Evil6 votes
Axis the Dragon29 votesKalista wouldn't mind that at all
HeadHonchkrow6 votesRemove kalista, its the logical choice
YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes
Take out one cancer, and two more shall take it's place!! 
The "mobile" ADC.
KONO RUBICK DA4 votessimple: increase her range like riot always did with skillshot
Commando Yi47 votessimple: increase her range like riot always did with skillshot
then we'd just have 20 long range mages? not to mention this would be massive buff to champs like kalista
Miraweave34 votes[{quoted}](name=Commando Yi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T16:54:36.230+0000)
then we'd just have 20 long range mages? not to mention this would be massive buff to champs like kalista
^
Annie keeps the absurdly mobile champions in check and has a terrible engage range without flash.
TenSlashTen6 votes950 stun range on R is not terrible.
Please get educated.
Axis the Dragon25 votesIt's actually closer to 900 (890 iirc) - and that's the far edge limit to hit someone with (realistically you'll only be stunning one person with it if you're really using it for its max range)
Besides, the reason why Flash is necessary is because of how telegraphed her ult is - she can't suddenly throw it out like an Ashe ult, and she doesn't have any instant dashes like Ahri - she legit has to walk up to you
Viktor has similar problems but at least he has a movement speed buff on his augmented Q, which alleviates the problem a lot (despite that, many people still tend to flash ult with him anyway)
l Main Renekton2 votesIs that the notorious Commando Yi that I remember from the forums?
Where have you been?
Commando Yi4 votes[{quoted}](name=Nuclear Braum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-22T01:50:50.018+0000)
Is that the notorious Commando Yi that I remember from the forums?
Where have you been?
i've been posting videos here for a while :D
1Maza1 votes[{quoted}](name=Commando Yi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-21T16:54:36.230+0000)
then we'd just have 20 long range mages? not to mention this would be massive buff to champs like kalista
We have Viktor and Azir. I think I'd be okay with having one less OP mid-range mage. And calling her "short-range" is bullshit. Kassadin or Diana is "short-range". Annie is a mid-range mage just like the other broken ones.
NinjaToad991 votesHer ult is mid range (High-mid if you're going for max range) and her aa range is pretty good, but her other abilities are short ranged, so all in all she is short ranged.
1Maza1 votesHer ult is mid range (High-mid if you're going for max range) and her aa range is pretty good, but her other abilities are short ranged, so all in all she is short ranged.
Your definition of "short" is confusing me. Here's how I see it: unless you're literally standing in Garen's E, it's not "short".
Nut on my Butt2 votesYour definition of "short" is confusing me. Here's how I see it: unless you're literally standing in Garen's E, it's not "short".
It's short when you compare it to an average mage's range. She is easily poked in lane pre 6 without being able to trade back. Not much of a problem for her though, since this requires her enemies to usually hit her with their max range which can be easy to react to unless it's a champ like Brand or Syndra.
Phoenix Kotori 4 votesShe just needs a time restriction on her passive really, TF functions just fine with one, I don't see any reason Annie can't.
Enosetc13 votes[{quoted}](name=Girls Love,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-21T18:42:25.878+0000)
She just needs a time restriction on her passive really, TF functions just fine with one, I don't see any reason Annie can't.
because tf doesn't rely on a summoner spell to frontload his damage
Commando Yi14 votes[{quoted}](name=Girls Love,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-21T18:42:25.878+0000)
She just needs a time restriction on her passive really, TF functions just fine with one, I don't see any reason Annie can't.
they're two completely different champions and the way they charge their stuns are different?
Phoenix Kotori 1 votesSo clearly she would be given a different grace period than TF; I'd say 1-2 stacks no fall off time, and 3-4 stacks probably in the 15-20 second range. I'd rather that and see her buffed in some other area.
Than the current lol it's support annie zoning you with her stun threat forever, have fun.
Voluug131 votesIf annie gets to zone you then your adc choice was bad. But then again people choosing Vayne/Draven for the muh playz isnt uncommon.
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesAnnie Q outranges anyone but jinx or caityln auto's.
Commando Yi1 votes[{quoted}](name=Girls Love,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q86y3MKO,comment-id=00060001000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-21T23:07:49.362+0000)
Annie Q outranges anyone but jinx or caityln auto's.
if support annie is your problem there is also sivir, ashe and varus
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesAshe and Varus autos are both outranged by her Q.
Ratbert8 votesvolley and piercing arrow make annie ragequit before she can q. Annie can't stand poke and long range.
Voluug133 votesI said Zone, not outrange. Plus she will never be on the exact range to zone you - if the lane is frozen in their tower, she cant really zone you without risking a 2v1 engage on her while her adc farms. If its on the middle of the lane, its worse for her too because unless her ADC isn farming either, she will get bursted by a 2v1 trade. Q doesnt have the range to zone you from behind her minions unless you are or 
, which she counters, mind you.
Also any adc with mobility can get to a respectable distance while Q is traveling, basically negating the engage and reseting her passive, allowing for countertrade since she just became useless. 
.
can SS it too. Several poke adcs like 
and 
can both poke her out of lane (remember, 0 sustain for her or her adc) and farm from distance with skills.
There is also the matter of what your support picks. Engange supports like 
can counter engage her adc. 
and 
and other poke support can poke her into low hp on her and 
can outsustain her trades.
Annie doesnt starts with 
and 
either - her damage as support is mediocre unless she is fed, not to mention she has to but her support core too.
Saianna11 votesThat wouldn't be the best solution imo. Reason is:
TF stun is in 1 ability it's on short CD he can replenish mana has long range poke Also worth to mention that TF synergizes with on-hit items alot (like lichbane)
While Annie has to spent mana 4 times for her passive to stun doesn't have mana replenish ability (her Q only refunds mana on kill) She has low range of her abilities, which means she has to position herself to stun someone
So if Annie had time restriction on her passive, then she'd be played like Graren which is:
Do you see enemy? Yes Are they closer than 1000 units? Yes Is your stun up? Yes RUN AND CATCH THEM!
That's kinda lame.. And then you'd see fail Annies who just missed their stun time by split second.. That would be heartbreaking...
Xela Syab2 votesI don't think any of those champs have an aoe stun nuke. In fact I don't think any mage besides annie has an aoe stun nuke.
Baron of Bread2 votes
(not a stun but close) 
(on a basic ability) 
(if you are facing her) 
(it's a knock up but is close) 
(taunt nuke) 
(if you hit a wall) 
(knock back instead) 
(ult or W with passive) 
(knock up/back) (if you build AP) 
(knock up) 
(knock up/back) 
(with AP) 
(with AP) 
(double bomb)
There might be one or two other champs with high damage AoE hard cc abilities.
TurquoiseYoshi3 votesAnd how many of those are instant?
Ratbert8 votes8 of them may as well be, cause you'll need to blow flash to dodge it. amumu, aniv(close range), galio, gnar, grags, lee, malph, sona. 5 of these champs also have dashes.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesCan you Flash away from Annie's ult?
Ratbert6 votesCan she engage without flash? 5 of those champs up there can.
Also if you have really quick hands, you actually can, as it is not targetted. If you're stunned, your hands weren't quick enough.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesI think you would need to have faster reflexes than God himself. Especially if she isn't in your vision. It actually isn't that hard to Flash an Ori ult if you know the timing, but Annie's ult is instant, meaning that there is no timing to learn. You just have to be able to see Annie flash and immediately get the hell out before she can ult you. It would honestly be easier to flash a point-blank Fizz ult.
Ratbert2 votesAnnie's flash + cast time is like a quarter of a second, so if you have some notion of her engaging, you can flash it. I did say really quick hands after all.
Some of the ones up there are just as bad
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votesI just want her to follow the rules of other short range mages.
Commando Yi5 votesI just want her to follow the rules of other short range mages.
what other rules?
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes
- Powerful stun but he has to use it quickly.
- Powerful AoE stun but it's set-up time means you gotta plan ahead.
- AoE stun but requires enemies facing you. instant cast ultimate but highly telegraphed.
- Strong stun requires passive on an enemy and pegging them with a ranged linear skillshot.
- Powerful AoE stun that requires a tristack of your passive.
- Instant, moderately telegraphed AoE/Cone/Single-target stun that she can hold onto as long as she wants.
Pray tell, what's the downside of annie's stun compared to anyone elses? Why does her stun have literally no drawback? Why can she stock her stun forever and let it loose at a moments notice? Her telegraph is a barely visible little ring of smoke around her model.
I guess the main question is: Why does Annie's stun have absolutely no downside other than "I might waste it if I use a spell", even though it comes back up quite rapidly thanks to Annie's cooldowns and mana costs (Her flame shield is practically free bonus stacks).
Commando Yi8 votes
Pray tell, what's the downside of annie's stun compared to anyone elses? Why does her stun have literally no drawback? Why can she stock her stun forever and let it loose at a moments notice? Her telegraph is a barely visible little ring of smoke around her model.
I guess the main question is: Why does Annie's stun have absolutely no downside other than "I might waste it if I use a spell", even though it comes back up quite rapidly thanks to Annie's cooldowns and mana costs (Her flame shield is practically free bonus stacks).
if we're going to talk about stuns exclusively without considering other parts of a champs kit you might as well ask why udyr gets to stun people by right clicking them whenever he wants after activating bear stance