If you want to remove damage reflected as an item atrribute just remove it altogether instead of nerfing it into irrelevance and slapping on a grievous wounds stat.
The old thornmail was stronger vs adcs than the current one.
Bob the Toastr48 votesI think they should give it back the damage it used to have and just increase the price to, say, 3100 or something. We need better late-game tank items. And if they're going to take away Thornmail's 100 armor niche, they should give back 
it's 100 armor. No one ever builds it anymore.
SanKakU38 votesShh...they might see this post and nerf Frozen Heart to 70 armor.
Murdercap6 votesno one buys frozen heart because randuins does its job 10x better. on top of that randuins gives health and a nice active slow
The Ender Cobra11 votes20% cdr 90 ARMOR Frozen heart is way better in a lot of situations
Melledoneus4 votesNot as much, especially since the tank update when every armor item started giving more armor and less HP.
JackMcSnipeyz45 votesold thorn was garbage, everyone asked for grevious and it is a much better effect than on hit effect, it was too black and white, either you would not be able to fight thorn or you would not even feel it's effect because you had life steal.
New thorn has a clear niche - anti sustain, it slows the attacker while also lowering it's healing and reflects a bit of damage as an added bonus, but it's not suppose to be a "lol i just killed myself because malph bought thorn". i used it in toplane and it works great against heavy AA champs like fiora.
Commando Yi3 votesold thorn was garbage, everyone asked for grevious and it is a much better effect than on hit effect, it was too black and white, either you would not be able to fight thorn or you would not even feel it's effect because you had life steal.
New thorn has a clear niche - anti sustain, it slows the attacker while also lowering it's healing and reflects a bit of damage as an added bonus, but it's not suppose to be a "lol i just killed myself because malph bought thorn". i used it in toplane and it works great against heavy AA champs like fiora.
try to distinguish itemized life steal from healing based on abilities, the two are not the same a draven could kill himself on the old thornmail, he will not killhimself on the new one
Automated Riven16 votesA draven could kill himself in the old one if he never bought lifesteal. Once he got lifesteal would never take more damage then he healed.
1011001110007 votesI watched a Draven heal off the new Thornmail anyway though
Melledoneus8 votesDraven is never a good example of balance or fair gameplay.
He's a bully whose counterplay is "be better and nuke him."
Pierce The Veal1 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9KJo2HIv,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2017-07-12T21:02:12.914+0000)
A draven could kill himself in the old one if he never bought lifesteal. Once he got lifesteal would never take more damage then he healed.
30% damage return as magic damage pre mitigation? His 1500 damage Q's will return 450 magic damage each auto attack, how much lifesteal exactly does he have?
Automated Riven2 votesold old thornmail did do 30% damage back. This was the one which was considered trash new old one was 15% damage and 25% total armor.
lets quickly assume that draven has this build 
and he is attacking a tank with a standard build. 
Thats (assuming thick skin is active) thats 300 bonus armor. so 75 damage reflected with armor.
Draven has 105 base attack damage, plus 265 from items for a total of 370 ad total. so assuming that draven crits 50% of the time with the 50% crit then half of dravens autos do 1250 (925 + 325) and the other half will do 695 (325+370)
Thornmail would do 15% of that back to him before armor reduced it for a total of 187 on crits and 104 on non crits.
So all in all the total of damage that thorn would have done to him is 262 for crits and 179 for non crits. this would be reduced by mr and the 12 pecent damage reduction for about 53% damage reduction eaqualling about 120 for crits and 84 for non crits. Draven would be lifestealing about 200 health per auto.
I gave up on the rest of the math. feel free to finish it and prove my point.
MeBuffULongTime5 votesExactly, I think people are overlooking the true intent of this item now and honestly how it used to be. I don't think it was ever meant to be a serious source of damage but more of a deterrent for tanks. I think this new effect better addresses the type of ADC threats that can overheat so easily and I am looking forward to trying it out myself.
Glory ln Death5 votesYep. Rammus was the only tank who could look at Thornmail and think, "That's an offensive damage item!" For everyone else, it was a "Screw off, ADCs, I'm not a health pot!" item, which was rarely useful because they still out-healed its damage.
Skias1 votesold thorn was garbage, everyone asked for grevious and it is a much better effect than on hit effect, it was too black and white, either you would not be able to fight thorn or you would not even feel it's effect because you had life steal.
New thorn has a clear niche - anti sustain, it slows the attacker while also lowering it's healing and reflects a bit of damage as an added bonus, but it's not suppose to be a "lol i just killed myself because malph bought thorn". i used it in toplane and it works great against heavy AA champs like fiora.
It works like shit against fiora. Her damage bypasses the armor and the reflect damage does practically nothing to her.
JackMcSnipeyz5 votesLike i said so many times in this thread, thorn was never an item that was meant to make other carries kill themselves by auto attacking you, how is that a healthy mechanic at all? what's the counter to that? Thorn was anti sustain, the damage was to mitigate the life steal they got from attacking you, but it didnt do it's job, before they got life steal it would be too strong, after it would be useless.
The new grevious wounds fix that problem, along with an attack speed debuff and a bit of health, the damage return is a bonus but it is not meant to make carries kill themselves, it never was.
After all that is said, no, firoa will not take damage for doing her most basic of basic job which is auto attacking, but she will get reduce healing from all sources - Her ult, life steal, supports, heal spells etc.... no you wont 1v1 her but no one can, you will however reduce her effectivness in teamfights significantly, which is where tanks jobs shines - team fighting.
Kloqdq31 votesI mean it was over once they got lifesteal. Unless you were 
, was a terrible item. As a tank man, I can finally have a way to deal with adc's just making me their life-battery. I do think tank items need some help in general though since support tank items are still stronger.
Dr Poro6 votesThornmail was more of a 'diminish their lifesteal item'. Even though it won't deal damage, the ADC also isn't healing back on you. Grievious wounds does that job better, though.
Darth StepVader15 votesSomehow Riot always manages to please their most spoiled playerbase. Thornmail's damage should be buffed to previous ratios again and keep its current stats and grevious wounds. We were asking for grevious wounds to be added to the item all this item, not to first nerf it and then add them.
GodJormungandr13 votesfor sure yes... that's what i am saying... 100 armor + counter reflected way better than 75 armor 250 health with grievous wounds... now adcs can easily stack ad items and no longer care about thornmail because it's no more old thornmail that Counters the Right click champions with heavy ad + attack speed + crits....
They should just Keep the damage. it's most important thing about thornmail and give more stats while making it more expensive that's least fair to do.
zkitt1ez4 votes[{quoted}](name=Vanguard Prince,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9KJo2HIv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-12T17:27:24.782+0000)
for sure yes... that's what i am saying... 100 armor + counter reflected way better than 75 armor 250 health with grievous wounds... now adcs can easily stack ad items and no longer care about thornmail because it's no more old thornmail that Counters the Right click champions with heavy ad + attack speed + crits....
They should just Keep the damage. it's most important thing about thornmail and give more stats while making it more expensive that's least fair to do.
buhu i cant build 1 cheap armor item to counter an entire role. I think people forget how much AD items costs for adcs and how much time it takes to farm up to that point. Meanwhile a thornmail made an ADC absolutley useless against that champion unless he had a lifesteal item. Which pushes the Armorpen item to the fourth slot. Hence why adcs have become a utility bitch role.
Shonjl2 votes[{quoted}](name=Bibimbap OvO,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9KJo2HIv,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-12T20:56:08.797+0000)
buhu i cant build 1 cheap armor item to counter an entire role. I think people forget how much AD items costs for adcs and how much time it takes to farm up to that point. Meanwhile a thornmail made an ADC absolutley useless against that champion unless he had a lifesteal item. Which pushes the Armorpen item to the fourth slot. Hence why adcs have become a utility bitch role.
Here is the thing. How can people act like LIfesteal is such a negative? YOu were a bad ADC if you DIDNT build lifesteal. Period. Lifesteal beat raw damage every time. I mean even now the people that generally rush LS first item beat the shit out of the people that get Statik or Runaans or IE first item.
There was no reason now, there was no reason 2 seasons ago, there was no reason when League came out not to have at least 1 lifesteal item on an ADC. Hell with how the game is right now, most ADCs get more than 1 LIfesteal item. There really is no reason not to get 
on every ADC atm and most work really well with so get it too. And while it is the weakest of the Lifesteal items atm, you can never really go wrong with a 
Most games I see nowadays the ADC generally have 2 lifesteal items, Bork and BT or Bork and DD. That is including their 3 crit or letality items and boots. Still a monster in my eyes.
Hell if I saw an ADC with all 3 of those LS items I would actually be scared. Even with just IE and PD or SS you still get a fairly high crit chance and heal a fk ton. So what if you do slightly less damage if you are healing roughly 50% of the damage you deal. Would you want to fight something that heals roughly 300 every auto every half second?
Durzaka13 votesI definitely agree.
I really hope they take this opportunity to finally look at ADCs damage (lol, good luck).
Im not going to argue that old thornmail was good design. it was toxic as fuck to play against. Once a tank bought it, the ADC basically can never hit them outside they will kill themselves. That is a really shitty way to real with how much damage ADCs do.
ZerglingOne8 votesALL damage is too high right now.
The evidence is in the fact that bruisers are suffering some of the lowest win rates they ever have, despite being the largest pool of champions.
Glass cannons and pure tanks are in right now, and it's a symptom of damage just being too high in general.
If your champion can't kill someone in the course of a 1.5 second AoE CC, or provide that 1.5s AoE cc, you're suffering right now.
Mecha Incognito10 votesIt probably does more damage now if you consider the grievous wounds effect as damage against someone with lifesteal.
So now, rather than thornmail becoming redundant after a certain amount of lifesteal was bought, it actually will have it's damage stick and they can't just heal through it any more.
Commando Yi3 votes[{quoted}](name=Command Forfeit,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9KJo2HIv,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-07-12T19:16:21.946+0000)
It probably does more damage now if you consider the grievous wounds effect as damage against someone with lifesteal.
So now, rather than thornmail becoming redundant after a certain amount of lifesteal was bought, it actually will have it's damage stick and they can't just heal through it any more.
that's the problem, it doesn't, it does far less damage to the attacker now than it ever did in the past
this idea that life steal counters thornmail became popular because people are unable to distinguish healing from abilities vs healing from items
the reflected damage on the old thornmail overshadows the current grievous wound stat by far in terms of countering itemized life steal where as the new thornmail is substantially stronger vs ability based healing (fiora) yet does nothing to those stacking ad for stronger auto attacks
Mecha Incognito6 votesIn a 1v1 duel itll do less damage, but in a teamfight having the adc be unable to heal/lifesteal effectively - even for a brief moment - can allow other champions to actually get damage to stick. On top of that, it now also slows their attacks down so their DPS is going to get hurt a lot more.
It's a great tank item - helps keeps you alive without making you do silly damage AND reduces damage output/healing of your attackers.
Way better trade off in my opinion.
I say Facts9 votesWhy they nerfed 100 armor stat in thornmail? Thornmail is known as most Armored item that Counters heavy auto attack. i rather they take 250 health and make it 125-150 armor instead
Snowplosion8 votesYou have to be joking. There is no way the new Thornmail can be worse. It gained 250 at the expense of 25 armor, gained the Cold Steel passive, got a better build path, and now inflicts grevious wounds. How the fuck is it worse.
Verarticus6 votesHonestly all they had to do was add GW to the item, maybe lower the damage a bit to compensate. There was no reason to nerf the armor amount, or add the AS slowing...like why. There's already 3 items for that.
Chaos Milk Tea3 votesWasn't the armor lowered because they gave it hp?
Mecha Incognito3 votesIt might be favourable in the end to have less armor and some health, what with the reduction in health values across the board with a little more armor. I don't know (and wont attempt to) work out a standard full builds effective health from before the tank rework to this new thornmail, but I have a feeling it's a little higher than before.
PePsiLemoNN6 votesNot so long ago there was at least one thread everyday on the frontpage asking for Thornmail to get grevious wounds. It would've been toxic af (like it wasn't toxic enough already) if it didn't get it's damage reduced.
Can't people understand that it's not healthy to kill yourself cause you were trying to do your job as an ADC and DPS?
invisiblecat15 votesOld thornmail was a little too strong ADCs could really only hit that target 5 times late game before having to run away If they had lifesteal the effect was almost completely negated New thornmail does less damage, but now they can't lifesteal off of you has well, making it an items that is nearly in par with the old thornmail
waiting for WoW5 voteshonestly it's a stronger item if used against the right champions.
If it had the same damage the item would be broken beyond belief. Being able to stop ranged and melee champions from drain tanking you alone can win team fights.
VoraciousX5 votesYou forgot to mention not only did they make it 75 armor but the armor ratio was nerfed and damage inflicted on you no longer counts. Old thornmail reflect ratio was 25% of your armor and like 15% of damage taken, new thornmail is 10% + 25 damage.
[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9KJo2HIv,comment-id=0008000000010002000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T04:12:33.411+0000)
I am not disagreeing that the damage return is a nerf. I am simply stating that adc's invalidated thornmail before the change due to lifesteal.
When armor on all stats was buffed, I had to build a maw, a mercurial, a BORK, and a bloodthirster to heal over the damage taken as Xayah vs a Rammus.
Thilmer4 votesWhy tank ítems always enjoy this "gain new abilities but lose stats" changes, while changes in AD ítems are like "buff + buff + buff + lifesteal"?
JackMcSnipeyz4 votesbecause it got AS slow + Health bonus + Grevious wounds + Better build path ALL THAT for a small drop of armor and a small redution of return damage to their attacker. yea, what a BAD trade sorry you had to buy such a bad item
vidghost4 votesbecause it got AS slow + Health bonus + Grevious wounds + Better build path ALL THAT for a small drop of armor and a small redution of return damage to their attacker. yea, what a BAD trade sorry you had to buy such a bad item
LOL SMALL return damage? ..
old Thorn mail returned 15% damage taken + 25% of your armor New thorn mail returned 25 flat damage + 10% of armor
so late game thorn mail does next to nothing in damage now .. even with 40% reduced life steel with only 1 life steel item.. if they hit you for 200 damage.. they will life steel MORE then the return damage and thorn mails 100 times worse then it used to be.
Commando Yi3 votesbecause it got AS slow + Health bonus + Grevious wounds + Better build path ALL THAT for a small drop of armor and a small redution of return damage to their attacker. yea, what a BAD trade sorry you had to buy such a bad item
"small reduction"
what mental gymnastics do you have to go through to convince yourself that the difference between 15% pre-mitigation damage taken + 25% of your armor vs 25 flat damage + 10% of your armor is small?
JackMcSnipeyz2 votesyou seem to ignore the point tho, it applies grevious wounds, it reduces ALL healing, it went from being an item countered by 1 life steal item to an item that COUNTERS life steal items, and healing supports, and any sustain they get. So yea, you wont make them kill themselves (which is a very healthy mechanic on a tanky champion with lots of CC) but you will cut their sustain which is way more important in team fights WHICH IS WHERE TANKS ARE SUPPOSED TO SHINE
Faelorn4 votesold thornmail was good against adc's til they had some magic resist and lifesteal then they could sustain through the damage at 4items. now thornmail isn't strong early, and isn't strong late. ive never disagreed with an item change more than this one. ive been a rammus main since season two; and rode with the rammus changes. I don't think I can even play him now.
Naching2 votesold thornmail was good against adc's til they had some magic resist and lifesteal then they could sustain through the damage at 4items. now thornmail isn't strong early, and isn't strong late. ive never disagreed with an item change more than this one. ive been a rammus main since season two; and rode with the rammus changes. I don't think I can even play him now.
Rammus R.I.P He tried to survive even in the last moments but now Riot the serial killer comes and finished him .
One of the most fun and balanced champ isnt fun anymore only in two months destroyed.
Faelorn3 voteswhat are tanks gonna build against yis and trynds now? just ff at 15? if yi gets ahead early against a rammus he used tobe able to buy thorn and even the score for a while til late when yi is OP. now...yi just gonna steamroll rammus. whos supposed to be a natural counter.
4th3t0s3 votesThornmail getting "nerfed" isn't the problem here, it's 
+ 
's innate true damage on his e.
ChuShoe2 votesactually, I think the problem is just
just kinda op op in lower skill levels.
I know how to shut him down, but as for my teammates, stop feeding him plz.
Also, I'm only seeing people mention rammus? I loved building thornmail against 
and 
etc. top lane cause if I couldn't outdamage them, at least I could even out the playing field slightly until others could either help me, or until I could tp somewhere else and help my team from there.
vidghost3 votesactually, I think the problem is just
just kinda op op in lower skill levels.
I know how to shut him down, but as for my teammates, stop feeding him plz.
Also, I'm only seeing people mention rammus? I loved building thornmail against
you would still have been better off with the OLD thornmail BUT rushing Bramble Vest and stopping at that would be awesome.. not worth going to thornmail anymore.. gold better spent on sunfire cape, Dead Man's Plate or Knight's Vow (cheap) even Iceborn Gauntlet will give you some pretty nice damage and slow to help
vidghost3 votesNoodlemail - It hits back like a wet noodle blowing in the wind
Naching3 votesAdC now are more happy and stronger vs thormail.
Taking less damage than a minion hit haha, still healing 60%, less armor on their enemies and all the others who dont care about heal in their builds (a lot, ADC included too) are laughing and party hard...ah! and much more expensive...when the tank is able to buy this item the enemies did all they want much better.
And terrible 15% less speed attack dont fit a reflect ítem...NEVER...this is the PROOF of Riot just deleted this ítem and the original purpose.
Now it is a armor/life ramdon tank ítem more
There are not more diversity in tanks builds.
And Rammus players criying and getting another big nerf... Rumours said that Rammus will be a jungle's monster in the next patch.
And Malphite players are living a celebration too..going to the buddhist's temples in the mountains with Karma doing some breakfast.
HeresyHorus3 votesironically the new is GREAT against 
... pretty much anyone with "windowed" sustain that can be outplayed in the first place, it just fuks them up so hard on top of their counterplay.
it did almost nothing to ADC with constant mega scaling sustain that cant be outplayed and are the main problem of this drain tank shit.