Fundamental Problem with Keystone Masteries

Goosetard··8 votes·1,927 views

Let me say first that, although I enjoyed the old mastery system because it was a subtle point of optimization, I really appreciate what Riot is trying to do with the new system. I think creating "meaningful choices" (to borrow a phrase peppered into all the patch notes) is a good thing to do. However, I don't think the keystone mastery system accomplishes this.

Before keystones, the only way to change the way your champion played was with items (and, to a small degree, runes and summoners--but runes were very generalized and summoner spells have infrequent impact due to high cds). This is a fantastic strategic element to the game because it gives designers a lot of levers to pull and players a lot of meaningful choices to make. Some items have such powerful synergy with the kits of some champions that those items become "core," and are generally more valuable to buy than anything else. However, you can greatly customize your build based on the advantages and disadvantages of your team, and continue to do so as the landscape of the match changes.

Keystones, on the other hand, are selected once you can see enemy champions but before you can see their summoners, their keystones, their runes, etc. They are then set in key-stone (in b4 9k+1 downvotes and 1 upvote from Phreak) for the rest of the match. You made your decision at a point when the only information available to you was the champions being played and limited information about how your team plans to build. At this point, far and above the most important component of this decision is what kind of synergy your champion has with the keystones. That means that most of the time there's going to be one optimal choice and a bunch of non-optimal choices. This is not the kind of "meaningful choices" Riot is seeking to create, and results in "noob traps," which Riot continues works to remove.

The problem with new masteries isn't that there are 8-10 Thunderlord's Decrees in every game (although it's popular and easy to point out). This just means Thunderlord's is better than everything else, and that means there's no "meaningful choice" to be made--Thunderlord's will almost always be the "right" choice.

The problem with new masteries is that, for most champions, there's always going to be one mastery setup that will be optimal, or at least has the best chance of being optimal with the information you're provided in champ select. By making keystone masteries that occur frequently in-game and have actual impact, champion synergy is unavoidable, and the keystones are so disparate that one is usually just plain better than the others. Soraka will always take the healing keystone. There's no meaningful choice there--just a buff to soraka (that I doubt too many people were thrilled about).

If the purpose of redoing masteries and establishing keystones was to make another layer of optimization with its own complexities and pitfalls, then it has succeeded. And that's fine. I personally don't think it was necessary, but I don't think the game is any worse for having it, so long as they can be correctly balanced (which is a big if, considering how many levers Riot pushed, pulled, and added in preseason). To quote the "Fundamental Philosophy" on masteries from the patch 5.22 notes:

>We're updating the mastery system to offer focused, high-impact choices rather than a slew of nuanced micro-math optimizations. Each tier of decisions now successively grows in importance, ending in your final 'keystone mastery' which fundamentally impacts how you play your champion.

While the choices are (mostly) higher-impact than old masteries, I don't think that adding a "fundamental twist" on how you play your champion inherently adds value to the system when there's almost always going to be a clearly optimal choice, and there will always be one so long as the masteries are high-impact. That's a real catch-22.

20 Comments

Miku Lv993 votes

I felt like I had way more options with the old mastery system. Some games I could do something crazy like 0/2/28 if I wanted. But with the new ones, it's pretty much just 18 points in the tree of the keystone I want, and 12 points in one of the other trees. I was a lot better with the old masteries since I could make decisions in order to get an advantage. Now I feel like I'm just simply using the correct ones that every good player would use with my champion every game, and every other choice for the masteries is basically just wrong and worse.

ULTRA RAMOOSE2 votes

I wish that the 1 in a million chance that someone in a position to do something about this horrible dev team would read our real and honest critiques, and actually do something about it....

ULTRA RAMOOSE3 votes

I've left this game, but come back to the forums to see if they've ejected Greg Street and brought back common sense and stability to the game again. The problem with the new masteries is that they are dumbed down, there's no more depth to your own personal gameplay for each and every champ, there's only like 5 or so pages you need for all 100+ champs in game, that's it.

I've been scouring the forums and it seems that many of the older players like myself have migrated on to other things, Greg Street and friends are going to do the same here at League as they have with other major games, then move on to kill other games. If TENCENT were on the ball, they would remove these few groups of dev teams that are turning the game upside down and return the original devs to make the game fun again. I wish I had a copy of the old DOTA all stars and just make the game for the enjoyment of the people.

Goosetard1 votes

holy living shit... Greg Street. I didn't know who he was until I googled him but his hiring date almost EXACTLY correlates to a change in design philosophy I noticed and discussed here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XAPA8Evy-riot-whathowwhy-did-your-design-philosophy-change You, sir, just blew my mind.

ULTRA RAMOOSE1 votes

I just went to ghostcrawler's dev post and spoke truth to power so to speak, If I know him well from the WoW days, should not be long before I'm banned, it's k, I left the game already.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/mNEPVVga-intro-greg-riot-ghostcrawler-street-game-design-director?comment=0049

Goosetard1 votes

well thanks for pointing me there but uh... you're too mad, bro. I feel for you though item 3070

ULTRA RAMOOSE1 votes

Well, this is the second game he's pushed me out of, first was World of Warcraft, now the 4-5yrs I've spent here having fun.

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Ghostcrawler is the kiss of death.

We all knew, we hoped against hope... but we knew.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Atm, your right.

The new masteries offer a more interesting way of optimization than the old once, but hardly more meaningfull choices, as you usually pick the masterie that synergieses best with your champ rather than the masterie that fits best to your personal playstyle. However **if **some more work is put into them and the balanceing is done right, most champs should find 2-3masteries that they synergies well with so you get a choice that mostly depends on personal preferemce. Like picking thunderlord's or deathfire on Anivia, the first ncreases your burst and especially boosts your laneing, the later empowers your dps and mostly improves lategame teamfights, with maybe even stormraiders so you can easily reposition after the e+r combo. On lulu i already choose between thunderlord's and windspeaker's, deoending in wether i want to go full lanebully or focus on utillity. And if stormraider is done right, i could even see it on her, allowing to easily follow up on your e+q witth some AAs, or speed away from counterattacks.

As long as keystones offer different enough boons that are not too specialiced, which usually leads to very extreme synergies, customization instead of optimization should be possible if balanced correctly.

However, the IF is big in this one.

I also feel that the speration of the tree's hinders meaningfull customization, as many choices are just followup from one other choice. For example, If i want Deathfire, i can't get 45%cdr, if i want % pen i can't get thunderlord's or stormraider's. And that is asumeing that the tier 5 masteries are balanced. Right now, a good part of the reason for Thunderlord's dominance is that precision flat out beats other tier 5 masteries.

Paroe1 votes

well.... think about it. just how much damage does thunderlords DO? A lot. Like... a lot lot. On AD lux, you can completely destroy squishies with it.

Goosetard1 votes

It's so easy to proc on Lux it's like it was made for her. Her passive deals 8 + 10lvl + 20%AP magic damage. TLD deals 10lvl + 10%AP magic damage, for a total of 8 + 20*lvl + 30% magic damage. It's somewhere between a 100%-50% buff to her passive in short trades. The 20 second cd for TLD is double the 10 second cd on her E (with no cdr). There's no way anything else is going to compete.

magic pole1 votes

tldr

Goosetard1 votes

tldr: There's pretty much one right choice per champ all the time for keystones, which is ok but doesn't fulfill Riot's design goals specifically for masteries or overall.

Luckily for me there's a bump-incentive to spoon feed people my ideas.

magic pole1 votes

i see. and would have to agree

you pick your keystone and choose between crap every tier before it

except cunning t5 is flat pen. very nice

Goosetard1 votes

Now that you mention it, besides keystones, I'm not sure there's anything different about the new masteries besides picking some prevents picking others. Except the brush movement one?

consensual clown1 votes

Lol

BluePolarizer1 votes

I completely agree.

Nidken1 votes

thank you for summarising this +1

Angry Monster1 votes

you have some weird ideas what the goals of the new masteries were supposed to be.

The goal was more power in fewer options, so they feel more impactful. Nothing else is going on with these changes. Riot can claim in the videos that they want it to be a puzzle, but it is a joke and patch changes are quickly figured out by the player base in a mater of weeks.

I saw the little back and forth you had about GC. If honestly think league is changing cause of G.C your nuts. League has been changing every year, i know cause i have been here since season 1. I love when clueless people say G.C the root of all evil

sorta like

[{quoted}](name=ULTRA RAMOOSE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VU3i3LAy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-15T03:39:55.878+0000)

If TENCENT were on the ball, they would remove these few groups of dev teams that are turning the game upside down and return the original devs to make the game fun again

Are you people really that blind/foolish to think that Tencent is not watching how their property is doing? Tecent took over around season 3 and you argue most of hard core changes started then.

Back to keystones.

The keystone is not about how your opponent plays it is about how you want to play. The counter building comes from in game items not from runes and masteries. You do not take 9 AR yellows cause you are trying to stop your enemies, you take 9 AR or health so you are not harassed as hard and you can farm your items.

You are seeing every flaw as a thing, when it is not. Holes are in place for a reason to allow decisions to be allowed later on. Or the game becomes very binary and you know X will happen no matter what until Y time and X another champ is in their spike.

Goosetard1 votes

GC's hire corresponded almost exactly with something I noticed and articulated before I even knew he existed. It could be coincidence I guess. But telling me I'm insane when I put the pieces together without even knowing about his hire is extreme. I don't think he's a root of evil and is here to kill the game, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with some parts of the design philosophy he brought with him.

When you say I have some "weird ideas" about what the goals of the new masteries were supposed to be, I'm not sure why you think that since I'm quoting their mastery philosophy and patch notes directly. Maybe the idea is to make more "impactful choices" rather than "meaningful choices," but I'm arguing that doing that creates another balancing lever that doesn't need to exist, and there's no real value from a game design perspective to offering a bunch of "impactful choices" when most champions only have one "right" choice.

Offering "more power in fewer choices" is kind of misleading because the "fewer choices" come from everything sub-keystones which are the same as the old masteries, and the "more power" comes from the keystones, of which there are now nine instead of the three deepest masteries in the old system.

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