Why don't marksmen have some kind of real gating on their damage like assassins are getting?

Irelia Bot··113 votes·6,145 views

Marksmen auto and can do crits one after another resulting in thousands of damage in under 3 seconds which is the kind of thing assassins are getting nerfed to have limited. This in turn means marksmen can often kill assassins before the assassin can kill them at many parts of the game especially with even the smallest of CC or escape mechanic of a marksmen.

Why don't marksmen have some kind of wind up factor built in their kits making their up front burst a joke but their sustained DPS godly which is what they are suppose to be good for in a fight? We have some things like this in Fervor and rageblade in the game as examples of how it would work. Why is something like this not the limiting factor of a class that is getting it's counters limited?

Heck you even kinda see this in Jinx's kit with her Q getting more attack speed.

254 Comments

Pierce The Veal85 votes

Because ADCs are weak and aren't being played in literally every lane possible. We thought support ADC would be an exception, but hey, look at that, we got support MF in pro matches. That just shows how balanced ADCs are as a class.

/s

18 NAKED COWB0YS53 votes

thank god for that /s at the end.

almost triggered.

MunchCrunchLunch27 votes

i got triggered. but saw the /s

but i couldn't untrigger.

BRJSDOFJSDFJDSOPFJDSPO[K KOFGKFDJGOPJFDOPGJFDOPGFOPDJGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Off Meta Evan2 votes

i'm assuming the /s is something like kappa but i don't understand whats the meme i must know.

Sire Hippington28 votes

/Sarcasm

mr Boombastic78716 votes

Mf support Kindred jungle Quinn mid top Graves top and jungle

Every role

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=mr Boombastic787,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e74T9HZn,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2016-11-04T13:14:54.417+0000)

Mf support Kindred jungle Quinn mid top Graves top and jungle

Every role

Don't forget Ezreal mid/bot/top (yes he used to be and can still be played top).

mr Boombastic7876 votes

I know that there are many more marksmen in other roles I just pointed some out. I also didn't say Varus mid.

Giga Kahuna1 votes

and then all of a sudden your team gets slaughtered because the other side only needs a couple tanks to stack pure armor and thornmail to completely counter your team

resumed13 votes

KogMaw mid Corki adc problem solved

Giga Kahuna4 votes

..but they're still squishy and can be annihilated by a regular team

if you have no tanks or front line, any hard engage is basically a free kill if your team is only marksmen lol

if all marksmen was busted it would be played in worlds, but how many full marksmen teams did you see in any pro tournament this year

1 800 Top Lane5 votes

Lol the way you worded that, it made it sound like thornmail worked anymore haha

RavenMagus22 votes

On the other hand:

How many teams did you see with no assassins? Quite a few.
How many teams did you see with no mages? A couple.
How many teams did you see with no tanks? A couple.
How many teams did you see with no ADCs? None.

I Q3 votes

This isn't really fair.

ADC is a position, like mid lane, top, jungle, or support. Whereas mages, tanks, and assassins are roles.

My example: How many teams did you see with no mid laner? None How many teams did you see with no support? None How many teams did you see with no top laner? None How many teams did you see with no jungler? None How many teams did you see with no ADC? None.

Before someone says "MF isn't a support" Yeah, but she was played as a support, built like a support, etc.

Umbra Ionia12 votes

No. ADC is a role. The position is bot lane where are 2 roles .

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

its a role that isn't really interchangeable with a second role in the game is all. like, assassins are mostly interchangeable with mages, serving most of the same functions- high burst damage especially. tanks and fighters are also relatively interchangeable, both providing a tanky disruptive presence to the team. there isn't a second role that covers consistent ranged dps with tower destruction. it doesn't mean ADCs are overpowered.

Voluug134 votes

Historically there are times where it wasnt adc+support, but Riot has literally hotfixed away such meta breaks back into adc+support.

Skias6 votes

{quoted}

Because ADCs are weak and aren't being played in literally every lane possible. We thought support ADC would be an exception, but hey, look at that, we got support MF in pro matches. That just shows how balanced ADCs are as a class.

/s

ADCs are viable in every position on the map. Ezreal, MF and Varus mid. Every carry ever top. Jungle kindred, vayne and graves. Bot ADC and support ADC can both be done. You are absolutely right. They can fight pretty much any matchup and succeed. This cannot be said for any other class in the game.

Pierce The Veal10 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are viable in every position on the map. Ezreal, MF and Varus mid. Every carry ever top. Jungle kindred, vayne and graves. Bot ADC and support ADC can both be done. You are absolutely right. They can fight pretty much any matchup and succeed. This cannot be said for any other class in the game.

And yet we continue to nerf classes that can even come close to competing with them.

Galiö1 votes

{quoted}

Because ADCs are weak and aren't being played in literally every lane possible. We thought support ADC would be an exception, but hey, look at that, we got support MF in pro matches. That just shows how balanced ADCs are as a class.

/s

Well tbh u can just get a high sustain tank and build thorn mail and they just kill themselves.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Only Galio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e74T9HZn,comment-id=00000006,timestamp=2016-11-05T04:52:28.895+0000)

Well tbh u can just get a high sustain tank and build thorn mail and they just kill themselves.

Except for the part where, you know, thornmail was nerfed hard.

Galiö3 votes

{quoted}

Except for the part where, you know, thornmail was nerfed hard.

Not that bad. Sometimes I rush thorn mail as galio then I swap lanes with bit lane and easily 2v1 them just cause the adc can't attack me u less he wants to die. And tbh that's all adcs do. Low cc goodish damage no tank stats. Theyou are there almost exclusively to be farmers and pushers. But people pre diamond 4 usually go in for kills fir almost no reason.

LXII30 votes

Because you're comparing late game ADCs to what an Assassin can do at level 6. Their gating is game time. They have to get to 4+ items before they're doing what you're complaining about, Talon currently needs just his Ghostblade and he can LITERALLY 1 shot ADCs at level 6.

Pierce The Veal22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Suit Thea,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e74T9HZn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-04T05:23:03.251+0000)

Because you're comparing late game ADCs to what an Assassin can do at level 6. Their gating is game time. They have to get to 4+ items before they're doing what you're complaining about, Talon currently needs just his Ghostblade and he can LITERALLY 1 shot ADCs at level 6.

We all know that's not true.

LXII33 votes

You've been 1 shot by a non-superfed ADC at level 6?

Didn't think so.

Enjoy the circlejerk though boys.

Pierce The Veal12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Suit Thea,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e74T9HZn,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-11-04T05:25:48.742+0000)

You've been 1 shot by a non-superfed ADC at level 6?

Didn't think so.

Enjoy the circlejerk though boys.

You've actually been oneshot with one ability/auto attack from talon?

Like literally just his W, just his Q, or just his ult?

No?

Your mouth reeks of bullshit.

Dynikus16 votes

You're just being pedantic, you know what he was saying.

Irelia Bot24 votes

That assassins are losing their burst power so they can no longer kill marksmen anywhere as consistently mid game while marksmen are not losing their up front damage late game which if lost would give assassins with their extended window of time required to kill a target a chance to get a kill.

Booleans11 votes

Assassins arent losing their burst. Riot said since the start of this that the goal was to give people ~1 second of extra counterplay. All of these reworks have the exact same burst potential (except maybe rengar, but lets be real. 1400 damage Q's right out of stealth were not fun to play against). The only difference is that 20% of their damage takes an extra second to activate, meaning if they jump on you, you have 1-1.5 extra seconds to live. Even rengar, with the ferocity changes, can still build to full ferocity in 1 spell rotation and a leap, which only gates his power for 1 second.

Talon: passive. 1 spell rotation and an AA procs it. Takes about 1.5 seconds due to his attack speed animation.

Katarina: more spinning than before, but ahe has to wait for dagger drops now.

Leblanc: literally the same kit, except extra burst was added to her passive after a 1.5 second delay. All abilities can apply and proc the mark.

Rengar: ferocity can only be built in combat, but he no longer has to wait around for 2 spells to come off CD to fill an empty bar. His ult now lets people know he's coming for them more clearly.

All of these assassins can still output the damage to consistently kill marksman, just like before. Now marksman get 1 extra second to react. God forbid marksman should have time to use an ability to get away from you to prevent the last 20% of your damage from killing them.

Akali is SO HOT8 votes

Akali Shaco

Ralanr6 votes

Unfortunate victims.

Bots Whilst High2 votes

{quoted}

You've actually been oneshot with one ability/auto attack from talon?

Like literally just his W, just his Q, or just his ult?

No?

Your mouth reeks of bullshit.

No but an R Q auto usually does it

Pierce The Veal6 votes

{quoted}

No but an R Q auto usually does it

That's 210 damage +190% bonus AD +100% total AD.

With just a ghostblade that's 210 damage+1.9x60+60+71.

That's 210+114+131.

455 damage.

Perhaps with his W and with a few more autos he'd have a chance to kill the ADC.

Aptest4 votes

Never in my entire experience have I been killed with RQ->AA from an assassin. Usually requires at least also W and then either E or an item active.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

Never in my entire experience have I been killed with RQ->AA from an assassin. Usually requires at least also W and then either E or an item active.

Literally this. Basically none of the assassins are capable of one shotting someone without blowing everything and some.

Aptest2 votes

don't put words in my mouth. That is not what i said and you know it. You are twisting the letter of my words to match the spirit of your desires which is completely different.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

don't put words in my mouth. That is not what i said and you know it. You are twisting the letter of my words to match the spirit of your desires which is completely different.

Then what were you saying?

Guy claims R Q instantly kills ADCs as an assassin.

I say that's literally not possible, you agree with me, and when I agree with your reply you're jow aaying I'm putting words in your mouth?

Aptest2 votes

without blowing everything and some.

Assassins up to now need MOST of their combo. but a lot of time, not all. specifically, a lot of time not including their GTFO move

Big Lincoln27 votes

because riot wants the ADCs to be the strongest class?

Irelia Bot21 votes

And clearly a large part of the player base wants to have fun being relevant as something other then a support, wave clear mage or marksmen.

Big Lincoln33 votes

yeah but until ADCs stop being burst-per-second kill-everything hypercarries (and also lane bullies, thanks to season 6 :^] ) we're not really gonna get that

not to mention every new support gets even more obnoxious with how well they can protect people, to the point where you actually have to be trying to fail with them these days, and anyone with low waveclear immediately disappears from the meta because they can't keep up with Viktor E-spamming them into their turret

N Pelosi22 votes

Don't worry. It's fine that adcs right click for guaranteed damage that crit and does more damage than a mage or Assassin ability twice per second while healing them for 10-25% of their health bar.

Penns10 votes

Tfw people still say adcs are broken kappa

N Pelosi17 votes

They do exactly what they were designed to do. Whether you agree with the design is the question. Personally I think marksmen should be absolute shit against champions and basically only picked for objective takedown. By doing so you carve out a niche for each class of champion fairly distinct from each other and easier to balance.

Penns13 votes

Well someone has to kill the tanks tho, I wont be able to do it as mid lane assassin. And its not like adcs that arent Vayne even do meaningful damage to tanks before 5 items lol.

Only Play Darius8 votes

So you take 1 ADC to deal with tanks. The problem is when double or even triple ADC comps work because they can be bullies in solo lanes and out scale their opponent as well

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Well someone has to kill the tanks tho, I wont be able to do it as mid lane assassin. And its not like adcs that arent Vayne even do meaningful damage to tanks before 5 items lol.

it doesnt have to be marksmen though.

Darius Yasuo Fiora Azir Cassiopeia Brand

are designed to kill tanks.

there are some other champs who are very well able to

Irelia Jax lategame for example

Vi Trundle too.

WoonStruck6 votes

That, and he said ADCs can't do damage to tanks before 5 items, when anyone that isn't an idiot will buy LW before 5th item, or get dicked by anyone that isn't behind and built any armor.

After LW though, armor becomes near-meaningless. That's a large part of the problem.

Many champions can deal with tanks, like you said. ADCs now invalidate them outside of hard engage.

Hmm...I wonder why only reliable hard engage tanks are ever picked in LCS/Worlds...

Aptest1 votes

Your suggestion has 2 possible outcomes:

option 1 objective takedown not strong enough mechanic:

there is a class in the game nobody wants to play with a whole range of characters nobody wants to lock in.

option 2 objective takedown strong and important mechanic:

there is a class in the game nobody wants to play AND it is absolutely essential for the win that someone does. Someone has to lock in an ADC and the experience is totally shit.

N Pelosi5 votes

That's okay for support but not for marskmen?

I mean, it's already the case for marksmen for some folks. Personally I find right clicking to be boring as fuck, preferring abilities to be more impactful, thus I hate when I get filled into adc.

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