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Forcing every champ to use skillshots reduces the emphasis on strategy and tactical play.

BluePolarizer··6 votes·596 views

If you give every champ a skillshot, there is nothing distinguishing League of Legends from a FPS game with terrible graphics and not even in first person mode. A MOBA game should be centered around strategy - the strategy of cooperating with a team to level up, get gold, and fight using tactics and strategy (i.e. mechanics, but also positioning, timing, itemization, etc) to defeat the enemy team. It is not about reflexes.

Counterplay does not have to necessarily be 1v1 counterplay in lane. Not every champ has to be able to defeat any other champ 1v1 during the laning phase. The perfect examples are Annie and Ryze. They have very clear strengths: they have point and click nukes and CC. They also have very clear weaknesses: cannot check fog with non-ultimate spells and have very short range. In a 1v1 fight of squishy melee assassin vs. Annie or Ryze, it is a no brainer that squishy melees would get rekt hard. However, is that because Annie or Ryze are insanely OP, or is it because its not a good idea to play squishy melees against champs with point and click short ranged burst and CC?

Counterplay should involve mechanics (ALL mechanics), counterpicking, positioning, timing, itemization and map awareness, It should not be boiled down to a single mechanic: "can I dodge this skillshot or not"? Point and click spells have extremely rich mechanical counterplay, especially in top lane with bush manipulation and gapclosers. It involves team comp, where a team that picks Annie or Ryze into a long range poked team like Nidalee/Xerath/Jayce/Sivir/Janna or something will have a bad time. It involves positioning, where you position such that it forces Annie or Ryze to fight your front line or cannot even reach your team without being bursted down. It involves timing, where you only fight when you are strong and the enemy is weak. etc etc. Having everything boil down to "dodge the skillshot" is not strategic diversity, not by far.

16 Comments

IcyPepper7 votes

It's like why people hate tanks at the moment.

People don't want to use strategy or tactics or rely on each other to climb the ladder.

They want mechanics to "outplay" everyone. They want assassins to be able to 100-0 tanks again. They want the support to be the only one warding and the jungler as a scapegoat if their lane get ganked. They don't want to change their builds, even if it gives them an advantage. They don't want to rush zhonyas against Zed, consider taking exhaust if they're not the support, build hexdrinker against whatever mage is "OP" at the moment, realize the limitations and strengths of supports, why you shouldn't group mid ten minutes and force teamfights when you're twenty kills behind instead of splitting up and taking objectives and not getting caught out by warding. They want healing to be shit unless you're an assassin, and damage to be increased over and over and over and over.

And yes, I know I'll get downvotes to hell. But it seems like the only thing people care about is damage and "outplaying" each other, and never ever ever ever discuss strategy. Hell, some people don't even know how to position, or understand that the tank/bruiser can take a hit from the assassin to protect the adc while the adc destroys the assassin in a few seconds (but longer than it'd take for the assassin to kill the adc).

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

It's like why people hate tanks at the moment.

People don't want to use strategy or tactics or rely on each other to climb the ladder.

They want mechanics to "outplay" everyone. They want assassins to be able to 100-0 tanks again. They want the support to be the only one warding and the jungler as a scapegoat if their lane get ganked. They don't want to change their builds, even if it gives them an advantage. They don't want to rush zhonyas against Zed, consider taking exhaust if they're not the support, build hexdrinker against whatever mage is "OP" at the moment, realize the limitations and strengths of supports, why you shouldn't group mid ten minutes and force teamfights when you're twenty kills behind instead of splitting up and taking objectives and not getting caught out by warding. They want healing to be shit unless you're an assassin, and damage to be increased over and over and over and over.

And yes, I know I'll get downvotes to hell. But it seems like the only thing people care about is damage and "outplaying" each other, and never ever ever ever discuss strategy. Hell, some people don't even know how to position, or understand that the tank/bruiser can take a hit from the assassin to protect the adc while the adc destroys the assassin in a few seconds (but longer than it'd take for the assassin to kill the adc).

The main thing about Tanks is that they are the skillshot. Their kits are almost always simple to use and highly reliable but executing them correctly is harder than most because their presence and bodies are essentially skillshots.

The tanks people hate are the ones who are a tad too reliable and/or too much power without much consequence. Sejuani was like that and I'm glad Riot handled it the way they did. Same with Sion.

The more damage and less tankiness a character has the more skillshot and mechanic reliant they should be. The less they are the more timing needs to matter than anything else.

"Did you land the binding" vs "When did you use Amumu's R"

neither of these things are honestly tactics or strategy in the way that Blue is talking about btw

Retillin3 votes

I posted this on another thread. But thought I'd post it here as well.

Riot believes that "skill shots" = talent/skill. (Yes I know skill is in the name but bear with me here) The entire idea of "skill shots" is a misnomer.

I'm going to use sports description when talking about the difference between the two. In basketball there is "talent" and there is "skill". One is a hyper reflex innate ability. The other is a learned ability that takes time and effort. Some players have both in close to equal measure, some have vastly more of one than the other. The best players have both.

Dunking/speed/shot blocking/jumping are examples of talent. Someone going into the NBA with high amounts of these are thought of "projects" or "high ceilings". In League terms, this is Seraph/Faker/Berj/Doublelift. All really good players who have reaction times far and away above what is normal even for the pro level. (Not saying they are all equal just trying to give examples)

Now with "skill", dribbling/shooting/awareness are all examples of basketball skill. Things that if a player is loaded with talent they still need to be great. But it's something that can be learned. Players like Time Duncan had a lot of talent, but it's his SKILL that sets him apart vs someone like Wilt Chamberlain who lived more off talent. In League this is more of the Cop/Mata/IWD/Saint. Players who have more skill than talent.

With more and more "skill shots" added to the game, oddly enough less skill is needed. I know people will say "but landing them takes skill". Yes, but it's more hyper reaction than skill. A better name for it would be something like "projection ability". However that doesn't roll off the tongue that well.

At the end of the day, giving a champion a "projection ability" (skill shot) reduces the awareness of the caster. Before this change to Ryze, you had to have enough skill/knowledge to understand how close you could get. When to strike with your abilities. How, just looking at the PBE, it's more about waiting for him to miss then unloading.

Truthfully, and this is not a popular opinion in a lot of places, Riot wants "skill shots" because they are making a TV product. Not a video game, a TV show. So they want the flashier move. Much like the NFL changing rules to increase scoring, they want more viewers.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

I posted this on another thread. But thought I'd post it here as well.

Riot believes that "skill shots" = talent/skill. (Yes I know skill is in the name but bear with me here) The entire idea of "skill shots" is a misnomer.

I'm going to use sports description when talking about the difference between the two. In basketball there is "talent" and there is "skill". One is a hyper reflex innate ability. The other is a learned ability that takes time and effort. Some players have both in close to equal measure, some have vastly more of one than the other. The best players have both.

Dunking/speed/shot blocking/jumping are examples of talent. Someone going into the NBA with high amounts of these are thought of "projects" or "high ceilings". In League terms, this is Seraph/Faker/Berj/Doublelift. All really good players who have reaction times far and away above what is normal even for the pro level. (Not saying they are all equal just trying to give examples)

Now with "skill", dribbling/shooting/awareness are all examples of basketball skill. Things that if a player is loaded with talent they still need to be great. But it's something that can be learned. Players like Time Duncan had a lot of talent, but it's his SKILL that sets him apart vs someone like Wilt Chamberlain who lived more off talent. In League this is more of the Cop/Mata/IWD/Saint. Players who have more skill than talent.

With more and more "skill shots" added to the game, oddly enough less skill is needed. I know people will say "but landing them takes skill". Yes, but it's more hyper reaction than skill. A better name for it would be something like "projection ability". However that doesn't roll off the tongue that well.

At the end of the day, giving a champion a "projection ability" (skill shot) reduces the awareness of the caster. Before this change to Ryze, you had to have enough skill/knowledge to understand how close you could get. When to strike with your abilities. How, just looking at the PBE, it's more about waiting for him to miss then unloading.

Truthfully, and this is not a popular opinion in a lot of places, Riot wants "skill shots" because they are making a TV product. Not a video game, a TV show. So they want the flashier move. Much like the NFL changing rules to increase scoring, they want more viewers.

I mean, Ryze Q is just as mindless as it was before just now you can miss it. I think that was the main point of it. I don't actually think they were trying to do anything other than making it harder to use while indirectly buffing it with his new passive.

Honestly tho, targeted vs skillshot are both relatively mindless because of low CDs. The only thing that isn't mindless about targeted is that they are almost always low range, but that just means you can't do anything until you walk a certain distance. That is hardly strategic.

Basically this entire argument is pointless, but I enjoyed your insight nontheless.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Exactly. In sports, some people have innate talent. Some people don't, but learn the game well. Just like in any team sport, some people know how to call shots, dribble, position themselves on the court, etc. while not necessarily having as much brute strength, speed or height as others. The point of a sport should be to emphasize the unique skillset needed to perform that sport, not on things you are born with.

Only Play Darius2 votes

{quoted}

..... the strategy of cooperating with a team to level up

Hah. Nice joke. The only thing that matters in the game are minions and turrets.

Nasus main speaking.

BluePolarizer2 votes

I don't mind Nasus at all. A perfect example of a mechanically simple, strategically complex champ.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind Nasus at all. A perfect example of a mechanically simple, strategically complex champ.

What strategy is there to playing Nasus or really any character? No character is more strategic than any other character.

I honestly think you are confusing limitations, reliability and skillsets for the vague term of "strategy"

Do I kill the guy or not? Strategy Do I use the skill or not? Strategy

I would argue it takes more strategy to think about when to use a skill that doesn't have a 100% chance of landing than it is to use one that will always hit.

Think about DND for a second.

You have to really think about whether or not you do most fights because of the chance you could get fucked over by a dice roll. Sure there are many situations where you don't have to worry as much, but most of the time you have to be far more strategic. Why is this? BECAUSE THE DICE ROLL DECIDES YOUR FATE BY BEING UNRELIABLE, FORCING YOU TO THINK HARDER ABOUT YOUR FUTURE ACTIONS AND MOVEMENTS

BluePolarizer1 votes

I don't want league to be like DND. DND is mostly played by neckbeard nerds, as I understand it. I would like League to be like chess. Otherwise it cannot be a competitive esport. I don't mind if it isn't, but thats how it is sold.

SEKAI2 votes

Having skill shots is fine, having lock ons is fine.

What's not fine is completely removing any one of them, removing skill shots makes the entire game a stomp fest, removing lock ons will instead make mobility completely and utterly broken.

We need balance, not genocide.

Kingsgrave1 votes

There is still strategy in Ryze's kit. The strategy didn't suddenly go away when they made ONE of his skills a skillshot and left the other 2 as non skillshots. You are clearly overreacting. Every kit is strategic in multiple ways. Some less than others which is why they get reworked or nerfed.

Targeted = Low risk Low reward Low skill needed to use it but timing is more important Non Targeted = High risk High reward Higher skill needed to use it but timing is less important

Targeted skills are not more or less strategic than non targeted skills. They are simply more reliable. You will always land a Pantheon Q in every single circumstance that you want to use it, but because its reliable it gets really low range and a constricting mana cost. Making it more unreliable would give it more power but at a tradeoff of "if I use this there is a chance it could fail" and IMO that is far more strategic than just using it whenever the fuck I can.

You basically want a game of nothing but positioning and opportunistic catching out. Go play Dota if you want that. League is a lot more about counterplay and in the moment skirmishes combined with knowledge and micro mechanics.

Also, honestly **when kits are almost all targeted abilities it matters more about who caught who out first and who is faster at mashing buttons. I would hardly call this strategic. **

Do you honestly believe Annie is strategic? Pantheon? Volibear? These three in particular are so overly mindless and opportunistic it hurts.

**How in the world is "I don't have to think about how to use the ability just use it whenever the fuck is possible" strategic? **

BluePolarizer2 votes

Pantheon's global is incredibly high skillcap to realize when to use it to return to lane or to gank a lane. You need to time it (game stage time) for maximum impact, otherwise without being fed you just fall off. This is especially true for top lane Pantheon where a badly timed ult can result in you losing huge CS and tower, or failing to snowball a late gamer lane while you fall off later.

Volibear - easy kit to use against bots, kited like crazy against anyone with mechanics better than a potato. Can even get kited by more mobile melees, never mind ADCs. As long as you don't make the stupid mistake of playing an assassin or bruiser and trying to dive past him, Volibear is actually a pretty bad champ against people with decent mechanics and strategy. Just a damage sponge with worse damage sponging abilities than alot of other champs and nowhere near their CC, with damage that falls off later.

Who gets caught out first and who is faster at mashing buttons: getting caught is you having bad strategy. Ward better, have better map awareness and better positioning, and you won't get caught.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon's global is incredibly high skillcap to realize when to use it to return to lane or to gank a lane. You need to time it (game stage time) for maximum impact, otherwise without being fed you just fall off. This is especially true for top lane Pantheon where a badly timed ult can result in you losing huge CS and tower, or failing to snowball a late gamer lane while you fall off later.

Volibear - easy kit to use against bots, kited like crazy against anyone with mechanics better than a potato. Can even get kited by more mobile melees, never mind ADCs. As long as you don't make the stupid mistake of playing an assassin or bruiser and trying to dive past him, Volibear is actually a pretty bad champ against people with decent mechanics and strategy. Just a damage sponge with worse damage sponging abilities than alot of other champs and nowhere near their CC, with damage that falls off later.

Who gets caught out first and who is faster at mashing buttons: getting caught is you having bad strategy. Ward better, have better map awareness and better positioning, and you won't get caught.

"getting caught is you having bad strategy"

Strategy in a MOBA is DIRECTLY tied to Actions and Action is directly tied to Strategy. I don't think you understand that these 2 things ARE NOT separate and thus cannot be argued that one is better than the other.

Volibear and Pantheon are reliable but limited due to high reliability. You seem to agree with me. They have more power than most characters but that comes at the cost of very limited windows of pulling that power off. That being said, I think Pantheon could benefit from Q and W being skillshots giving him more power albeit unreliable. Volibear is basically a meat wall and should stay as such.

Volibear isn't bad against "those with better strategy" he is bad against those who have high mobility which is more of an action related mechanic than a strategic one. Honestly no part of Volibear's kit is strategic. You just use your abilities whenever you possibly can and if you can't you are useless. The only real strategic characters are mages and even then thats highly debatable.

Honestly Pantheon's R is not as "high skillcap" as you are making it out to be. Just the fact that it teleports you around to wherever and can be placed on top of or behind an enemy guaranteeing you get off your Stun and usually get a kill, is enough to say that its pretty straight forward and easy to use.

"you need to time pantheon's R" is a stupid argument. You need to time literally every ability. Pantheon's R isn't any different.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Pantheon's ult is not just timing based on opponent actions, but also based on game time. You ult to where you need to not merely based on whether you can get a kill or not, but whether you can snowball that kill into objectives, otherwise you are wasting your time and risk losing your own objectives like top lane turret. This applies mostly to top lane Pantheon; jungle Pantheon has his own problems which is farming slow as hell.

You seem to be confusing mechanics with strategy. Mechanics is use of clicking the mouse. Even with Pantheon's point and click kit there's alot of crazy mechanical outplays you can pull off with bush manipulation and passive timings.

And yes, Volibear is indeed bad against those with better strategy. A team of all immobiles can still wreck him with range, poke and positioning. Literally the only team that Volibear is good against is a team of all immobile melees in bronze and silver.

You are nowhere near the skillcap for any of these champs, so it is no wonder you are having trouble comprehending why they have high skill caps.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon's ult is not just timing based on opponent actions, but also based on game time. You ult to where you need to not merely based on whether you can get a kill or not, but whether you can snowball that kill into objectives, otherwise you are wasting your time and risk losing your own objectives like top lane turret. This applies mostly to top lane Pantheon; jungle Pantheon has his own problems which is farming slow as hell.

You seem to be confusing mechanics with strategy. Mechanics is use of clicking the mouse. Even with Pantheon's point and click kit there's alot of crazy mechanical outplays you can pull off with bush manipulation and passive timings.

And yes, Volibear is indeed bad against those with better strategy. A team of all immobiles can still wreck him with range, poke and positioning. Literally the only team that Volibear is good against is a team of all immobile melees in bronze and silver.

You are nowhere near the skillcap for any of these champs, so it is no wonder you are having trouble comprehending why they have high skill caps.

Again, the way you describe Pantheon's Ult is not at all different than any other Ultimate or ability in the game. Timing is always important because of CDs. I don't really understand why you just keep equivocating everything to fit your side.

I'm not confusing mechanics and strategy. You seem to be. You seem to think they are separate when that is clearly not true. If League was a turnbased game I would agree that Strategy is the only important thing, but this isn't Pokemon so that isn't valid. If League was a fighting game I would agree that Mechanics are the only important thing, but this isn't Street Fighter so that isn't valid either.

Every high level player has a mastery of both strategy and mechanics. You don't see players that are bad mechanically and with high strategy and vice versa. Sure one may always be better than the other but thats mostly a non Korean issue from what I can tell.

Volibear has a high winrate in Plat+ according to stats on Champion.gg. Clearly by your "logic" everyone in Plat and higher is a bronze player because "their higher amount of strategy" should allow them to beat Volibear. Which is weird to me because you claim those with no skillshots are more strategic yet Volibear is bad in your perspective. Which is it? Is he strategic or is he bad? Is a character only strategic if they are a mage? http://champion.gg/champion/Volibear/Jungle

You also don't seem to understand that Melee Bruisers aren't supposed to be super complex mechanically or really strategic. I would say they are supposed to be reliable and opportunistic but limited in scope of ability to turn the tide of fights. Volibear is very reactionary and fits this description to a T. His job really isn't to duel and catch everyone, but to be a fat meat tank menace and he does that job well. So does every other fucking bruiser with limited skillshots.

My skill level in the game has nothing to do with my ability to comprehend the game. Just because you have a higher rank than me, I only assume I don't care enough to actually look, doesn't mean you know more than me about the game. Its still possible a man with no degree could know more about a field than someone with a degree in that field, but most people would wrongly assume that degree = automatic superior knowledge and understanding when in reality it just means they have a degree. Your rank just means you win a lot more than I do against stronger opponents. You would only need to know how to win and not anything else, bare minimum, to win enough games to reach a certain rank. After mid Diamond that isn't relevant anymore tho because actual "chess" comes in to play like LS says on his streams.

There are many game designers both in Riot and in other games that are terrible at their own games compared to the majority of the players. I don't appreciate the condescending passive aggressive ad-hominem.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Volibear is what I think is simply not a good champ design because his kit neither has mechanics nor strategy. The champs that are complex strategically are ones that I consider having to base their decisions based on game phase, positioning, relative gold advantage and objectives, while champs that are mechanically complex but not strategically complex basically play the same way regardless of game phase, positioning or existing objectives. Zed only does one thing. He doesn't really do anything else. You are fed? Assassinate the carry or splitpush. You are feeding? Try to assassinate the carry or splitpush. Pantheon plays vastly different based on game time: immobile lane bully, but then at 6 doesn't hit a power spike in terms of damage or tankiness, but rather opens up global strategic play opportunities (solo dragon, ganking other lanes, or even just trading heavily then getting back to lane with the advantage of ignite). Mid/late game, depending on how you built, can either peel bruisers very well with BC armor shred and save ult for other purposes (splitpushing after a won team fight or taking sneaky objectives), or dive carries. There are way more decisions (strategic decisions) to make with Pantheon, even though he is entirely point and click.

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