PSA: Counterpicking isn't counterplay.

GULAG 4 U·Dec 2, 2016·53 votes·1,949 views

Counterpicking: Picking a champion to give you an edge.

Counterplay: Abusing a champion's weakness/flaw to give you an edge.

Picking darius into Yasuo isn't counterplay, ccing where his dash will end is.

30 Comments

Nameless VoiceDec 2, 201620 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3vjheXWz,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-06-07T12:14:43.348+0000)

Counterbuild The ability for an item to render an enemy less effective against the purchaser, or the act of buying item(s) for this purpose. Examples of counterbuild: Buying Zhonya's Hourglass to avoid damage from the ultimates of champions like Zed/Karthus/Vladimir, or building a Quicksilver Sash against champions with suppression. Not to be mistaken with: Counterpick, Counterplay

Counterpick The ability to pick a champion which renders an opposing champion much less effective, either against that player or against their team. Also refers to the act of picking a champion for this purpose. Examples of counterpick: Picking Soraka when the enemy team has Karthus, to use your ultimate to prevent his from killing your allies. Not to be mistaken with: Counterbuild, Counterplay

Counterplay The ability for a champion to be outplayed by their opponent, generally by predicting, acting around or reacting to their skill set. The term can also be applied to a specific ability rather than an entire champion, in which case it means that the opponent can do something to counter or avoid that skill. To qualify as counterplay, the action must be generic and appply to all champions, or to a large subset of champions. Examples of counterplay: You can dodge Lux's Final Spark, or turn your back on Cassiopaea's Petrifying Gaze. Not to be mistaken with: Counterbuild, Counterpick. Counterplay is one of Riot's core design values.

League of Legends Gameplay and Balance Glossary

GULAG 4 UDec 2, 20161 votes

Well thank you :D

MarshbouyDec 2, 20168 votes

Looking at you nep2une

GULAG 4 UDec 2, 20165 votes

shots fired?

MarshbouyDec 2, 201610 votes

he'll constantly list anti assassin champions and say "so much counterplay", or at least he used to.

GULAG 4 UDec 2, 20166 votes

Well, he flames people and gets upvoted for it lol.

MarshbouyDec 2, 20167 votes

"hur dur .2 seconds is plenty of time to react"

GULAG 4 UDec 2, 20162 votes

It is if you're god

Maximum MordeDec 2, 201612 votes

Most of my nerves were replaced with 56k phone line back after i was almost burned to death in nam

GULAG 4 UDec 2, 20162 votes

Mines were stolen from mecha aatrox

CatastropDec 3, 20163 votes

"1 second is fine" "1.5 seconds is unplayable garbage"

nep2une 2k16 in an LB thread.

Jet SettDec 3, 20161 votes

He's also the only person consistently sticking up for assassins, even if he's exaggerating and flaming. If their attitude is so bad we need someone else to to what he does, but most people hate assassins and the people who play them, so you can see where his anger might come from.

NuparuDec 3, 20166 votes

I don't understand why everyone wants every champion to be able to do well into others.

Champions designed to beat certain classes should beat certain classes.

Are we going to make Pantheon less point and click to avoid him beating melee top laners? Or are we going to make it so Syndra gets a free gap closer to be able to beat Lux or Xerath?

There is no counterplay to a Pantheon top other than "survive for 25 minutes and pray to god he didn't dominate your lanes"

And so what? That's how the champion is designed.

This can be repeated for a lot of champions, such as Swain into melees, current Cassiopeia against a huge part of the mid roster, Yasuo into most mages, Jarvan into immobile carries, etc.

6SfoolDec 3, 20162 votes

That's true, but some counters are just too hard. Counterpicking should give you an edge, but the lane should not be won in champ select. You should have to actually play with some skill to keep that edge. Picking a champion that just denies any chance of retaliation whatsoever isn't all that great.

TeCoolMageDec 3, 20164 votes

Even pro players don't know all the champions in their role. Some have comfort picks. Counterplay should be available to all champions or it's not counterplay.

deadlychuckDec 3, 20163 votes

Yeah, but someone needs to tell this to riot, because they keep putting out champions, and letting them exist in a state which over 50% of the champion pool literally can't counterplay them due to the disparity in kit utility.

Autrah FangDec 3, 20162 votes

however, you need to counterplay the enemies with your counterpick, or else the counterpick won't do much countering :P

oSEXYPLATYPUSoDec 3, 20161 votes

it is still a counter

but lets argue over the term used... counter pick /counterplay

B0OMDec 4, 20161 votes

But if you validate a part of a champion's kit by saying, "You can counterplay by picking X champ," that doesn't hold up. It's a counterpick, not a counterplay.

Counterpicks happen in champ select to gain an edge over specific champs, and have inherent advantages that are specific to that matchup.

Counterplay happens after the game has started and occurs throughout the game, regardless of champion picked or the matchup. It's a way for the player to outplay the other player.

In other words: Counterpick=counter the champion Counterplay=counter the player

oSEXYPLATYPUSoDec 4, 20161 votes

it is still in essence "counter play" its using things in game at your disposal no matter what it may be to counter play another champ, item, team comp etc.

B0OMDec 4, 20161 votes

"In game" and "pre game" are different.

Picking a champion in response to an enemy's pick before a game starts is not counterplay, it is a counterpick.

Avoiding or otherwise overcoming a champion's entire kit when they have an inherent kit advantage over your champion is counterplay.

Riot's design philosophy is for each champion to have a way to meaningfully counterplay or be counterplayed. Saying "this champ is fine because X champ beats them" doesn't mean that the champ has meaningful counterplay, it means they have counterpicks.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoDec 4, 20161 votes

which is counter play... as i stated in my previous statement

B0OMDec 4, 20161 votes

I hear you, and my point is that counterpicking and counterplaying are still different. I completely agree with you in the sense that they are both forms of countering, and that's important to keep in mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's crucial to keep counterpicking as a viable strategy. When discussing counterplay, people often forget that counterpicking needs to be preserved to the extent of gaining somewhat of an advantage over other champion picks.

However, that doesn't mean they're the same. They're both ways of countering, but counterpicking and counterplaying manifest themselves different in the game experience. Counterpicking involves mostly game knowledge, and counterplay involves mostly game skill.

Pantheon into Fiora, for example, is expected to win because his kit does extremely well against hers. He's a counterpick.

However, if Fiora manages to turn the fight against him, either by riposting his stun, lunging out of his E before any damage takes effect, etc., then Fiora is counterplaying the Pantheon. Her kit does not do well against his, but she is managing to outplay him. That's counterplay.

Both counterpicking and counterplaying exist in LoL as counter strategies, and that's both fine and desired. But if a champion's only reliable counter strategy is "pick X champ or lose" (i.e. counterpick), then that goes against Riot's design philosophy of every champion being able to be outplayed in some way regardless of which champ you're playing (i.e. counterplay).

Sraeg2013Dec 3, 20161 votes

Picking darius into Yasuo isn't counterplay, ccing where his dash will end is.

Also an unique counterplay to Yasuo is the ability to stop his dash with any root, stun or forced action type of CC.

JMoormannDec 3, 20161 votes

You don't even have to CC where his dash will end. Yasuo's E is the only dash in the game that is interrupted by root/stuns (as well as knockups like all other ones)

CatastropDec 3, 20161 votes

Wow, I feel Bronze trash now because I've always waited after the dash to CC, when I could have been making my life so much easier by CC'ing immediately.

Papa SlothyDec 5, 20162 votes

if you cc his dash right as it starts, it will put the dash cooldown on the target but it's damage won't be applied

RivuoDec 3, 20161 votes

I think there should definitly be times where somw champs cant be good because the other champs.. Think riven vs a tank.. Riven becomes a less optimal pick because the tank offers so much more.

Now of course thats broad theres a lot riven can do out of lane but my point is i think every champiom should have counterplay while also being able to counterpick

Off Meta EvanDec 3, 20161 votes

Agreed.

devdev463Dec 4, 20161 votes

You are abusing that yasuos weaknesses by picking darius. How is that not counter play? What definition of counter play are we using exactly, because this is definitely open to interpretation.