context on Evelynn Whiplash getting %AD scaling?

Aamano·Oct 27, 2017·17 votes·2,113 views

whats up with that? to me it seems like a really weird change

51 Comments

AnonagonOct 27, 201728 votes

As much as I hate the idea of trying to support AD/Hybrid Eve, and as much as I dislike this E change for being a surface-level appeal to old Eve players, the actually rationale behind this change likely has nothing to do with AD Eve.

The important thing here is that this is a total AD ratio, and its replacing the flat base damage.

Having a totalAD ratio in place of base damage is pretty common. You can see it in a spell like Gnar's Q, which has only 5 base damage at level 1, but has a 115% totalAD ratio. There's a couple of reasons Riot would do something like this:

It increases the effective base damage of the ability at rank 1, by making the base damage scale with level. If you take E at level 1, it will still do similar damage as on live. But that damage will increase with level, meaning its damage will scale without having to put levels in it. This is helpful for Eve because she tends to max Q first.
It decreases the value of maxing that ability first. If Eve were currently to max E first, at level 9 it would do 90/140 base damage. With the PBE changes, it would do only 73/122. This pushes her into maxing Q and reduces the potential snowballiness of an Eve that maxes E.
It increases the maximum base damage. At level 18, her E on PBE's base damage reaches 101/168, compared to the 90/140 it would do as just a rank 5 ability.
It makes Gunblade good. I hate this, and I don't think this is the main reason they are doing this, but it might be.

So overall, its a buff early and late, but not a buff to her midgame. It will solidify Q as the ability to max first, and it will open up some optional build choices, though not necessarily entirely different builds.

ApocalypsicOct 27, 20177 votes

W is still what you max first. The magic pen you get from it more than makes up for the damage lost on not maxing Q.

If they want to make q worth maxing it'll have to offer more than what it currently does.

AnonagonOct 27, 20172 votes

I had no idea anyone maxed W. Don't actually play the champion myself. Most common and highest winrate builds on champ.gg had Q and E max, respectively, so I kind of based my assumptions of her playstyle on that.

TormentulaOct 27, 20174 votes

The current max order is Q-E-W, statisically speaking.

W is way too unreliable and on way too high of a CD to max first. Even if I was behind on eve and its the only merit I got for the team I'd max it second. Q is your bread and butter spell for clearing jungle and throwing out consistent damage.

ApocalypsicOct 27, 20172 votes

W is only unreliable if you miss Q, which by default makes your q just as unreliable as your W.

Maxing W lowers its CD and increases the damage of your Q so it's the best of both worlds.

Q doesn't need to be maxed at all for good clear either.

Statistically a lot of people don't know how she works yet still it seems. Everyone complained so much about her without learning to play her first

Dr PoroOct 27, 20171 votes

Q is by far the most common one to max, but maxing W first does have way higher winrate. Perhaps it's just that most people missplay her and she'll end up being actually good right now if we knew how to play her properly. She'll get buffs right now because she's underperforming, but I think that she'll be nerfed again later once the pros show us the way.

ninjaroxasOct 28, 20171 votes

Odds are there are a lot more people maxing Q over W as well so that would effect it as well

Blackstone01Oct 28, 20171 votes

Could be the people maxing W first are focusing more on ganking constantly. W first gives much better ganks than Q.

MangelinaJolieOct 27, 20176 votes

Uh... are you sure?

Even at max rank the pen lost on a squishy with little MR doesn’t justify that.

ElikainOct 28, 20171 votes

I don't max her W first at all. Her Q is always first whereas W or E always depends on what my team needs. Do i need to add more mpen to help my magic dealing teammates and a longer CC duration or do i need to specialize in quicker takedowns from E damage?

If the fights are hectic and fast, my W can't even fully recharge for % mpen effect to kick in so i mostly pick damage to save my dying teammates by killing the aggressor faster.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 28, 20173 votes

For each Q cast you get

1 of this: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45

3 of these: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50

And 3 of these: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45

Let's tally up the damage increase per rank shall we?

(25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45) + (30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150) + (75 / 90 / 105 / 120 / 135)

= 130/180/230/280/330 maximum magic damage

Trust me when I say an extra 2.5% magic penetration per rank does not equate to 50 damage per rank. Not to mention how much better Q is at shredding monsters than the extra 50 damage per 14-10 seconds after a 2.5 second delay that W gives you.

And +10% magic pen is definitely nowhere near as impactful as a bonus 200 magic damage at level 9.

Blackstone01Oct 28, 20173 votes

Each point in W increases its range, CC duration, MR shred, and decreases cooldown. Q only gives increased base damage.

ApocalypsicOct 28, 20172 votes

This too^.

Somebody Love MeOct 28, 20171 votes

I prefer to put 2-3 points in W before maxing Q, then W max second. Live Whiplash is worthless enough to be maxed last

ElikainOct 28, 20171 votes

It will also allow you to utilize Gunblade in your build. Maybe not Eve's go-to item but that AD would've been wasted outside of her AAs (that she is in no way incentivised to use).

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

Yeah,cause bursty champions with Gunblade are so damn healthy to play against? Evelynn already has great sustain with her passive. The Gunblade and the AD scalling will just ger damage nerfed in trade off for sustain,which is cancerous on Akali. Myb I'm wrong and I'm just over exaggerating,but I don't think anything good can come out of this.

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

Evelynn already has great sustain with her passive.

Only at late game. And after the changes to her passive, otherwise no. It needs shittons of ap to heal you. And you cant really buy only ap.

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

You take talisman,have smite,pots and her passive to keep her health up. Early it's not that powerful but late game,you can assassinate someone ,proc passive for a few seconds and your HP will replenish in no time.

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

Talisman pots smite all are things that every jungler in the game has. And her passive is pretty bad compared to other sustain tool in jungle or rather innate to their kit lee has his lifesteal, kayn has his e etc. And while yeah her hp will replenish in no time it will get her to about usually half hp. Unless you play full ap when again, its very dangerous.

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

She's an AP assassin.What else would I build on her than at least 3 AP items?

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

Well in order to make the max use of her passive you have to buy shitloads of ap. But you cant because you dont have defensive steroids to help you with extended trades.

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

If you're buying AP,there won't be any extended trades if you aim for ADCs or mages.It works the best if they are already low. The passive has base value of 250-590(+250% AP scaling).,which is pretty insane.

I'm not saying going for more durable options isn't a good idea,but she primary an assassin,so offensive purchases should take focus compared to tankier builds.

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

If you're buying AP,there won't be any extended trades if you aim for ADCs.

Adc's unless eve is ahead, are difficult to kill even alone. Some can just run away, while others can straight up make her use ulti to run away.

And yeah her passive has awesome scaling but to make use of it you have to buy ap. Nothing else. And since most ap bruiser items just give hp as a defense, meaning no armour, that hp alone wont help her survive. Indeed her primary role is an assassin. Though an assassin with no way to reach the target is a very VERY sad assassin. You cant just charm them with all this counterplay around w. You cant walk up to them because you will be cced to death. You cant ulti to them since you will blow your strongest spell AND your escape. If you buy tankness you lose burst. She is still weird. They reworked her because she was an assassin-tank- dps thing. And she sorta is still one. Without the tank aspect tho.

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

They can't run away if they're are charmed. One big mistake I have seen players do is going straight for the ADC or using W as soon as they see them. People need to play more tactical,like if the bottom turret is not down and the enemy carry is pushing in the middle of the lane.Go first behind them,use W and let them run into you,if you manage that the kill is nearly guaranteed. To note,if the ADCs has escape Empowered E let's her follow her target to their location. Even tho the range is dreadful it functions like a dash.

She's is a really strong champion and doesn't function like most assassins,but that doesn't mean she sucks at it. Charming them and getting to them is easy if you think out of the box. Don't be in front of them and run straight ahead. Don't rush the charm after it's charged you still got 2.5 seconds to proc it,don't rush into it just cause it's charged. People are exaggerating the W counterplay. It's all how you use it.There are many ways to use to either trick your opponents and just kill. Hell,if it was easy Eve would get nerfed into the ground.

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

They can't run away if they're are charmed

You cant charm them if they are away or they avoid it because you know, you have to proc it with your q which is a skillshot. And its fairly easy to evade it from max range.

people need to play more tactical,like if the bottom turret is not down and the enemy carry is pushing in the middle of the lane.Go first behind them,use W and let them run into you,if you manage that the kill is nearly guaranteed.

Well you cant really go behind them that easily with that big ass detection range, especially if they are two people down there. And even if you manage to charm them unless you are fed or/and they are horrible behind they can survive your rotation because you have low burst compared to other jungler assassins.

She's is a really strong champion and doesn't function like most assassins,but that doesn't mean she sucks at it

No she sucks. Her q needs an awful big time to deal maximum dmg while having multiple counterplay, her w and e is stronger on tanky opponents, while her primary targets are squishy targets, and her ulti has ( for now ) a big cd despite how reliant she is on her r. Also she cant gap close to her targets without getting dmged 1st.

Charming them and getting to them is easy if you think out of the box.

Oh how do you do that? The only way to approach someone with your w is to either :a) tag champ a and then try to flank them and to try to proc it with your q just as the mark is ready and b) either tag b while you will engage a to confuse them.

Don't rush the charm after it's charged you still got 2.5 seconds to proc it

Actually thats a lot less than one thinks.

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

The Q range isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Have you ever tried to position yourself so the enemies run into your Q instead of you running after them to proc the hit it?

Low burst? Myb early,but mid-late game her burst is extremely high. The reason for having low burst early is a balance concern.If Even had high burst early,ganking would be to frustrating for the people facing her.They would need to deal with high burst from her and the laner,forcing them to play more passive.

Have you even played her? What did you build? Because I found her to really efficient. Her E is only better on tanky targets if she manages proc W.

Her ulty has a big CD,because it's an good escaping tool as well.If you find yourself in a clutch you can escape with it,but sacrifice a damaging burst for it.If you checked the PBE her R has gotten a good change which rewards using it to kill.

Again,you don't need to force procing the mark immediately if you see the backed too much or their ally appeared. Why would you engage on a and then on b? And that 1vs2? That's like the worst scenario for any champions.

It's enough time to disengage from the kill or reposition/catch them.

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

The Q range isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Have you ever tried to position yourself so the enemies run into your Q instead of you running after them to proc the hit it?

Yeah? But what makes you think that it works every god damn time? Because it doesnt. You know people have eyes, and they can react on my q even if predict their movement, they can just sidestep it.

Low burst? Myb early,but mid-late game her burst is extremely high.

Compared to other assassins late game it is.

If Even had high burst early,ganking would be to frustrating for the people facing her.They would need to deal with high burst from her and the laner,forcing them to play more passive.

What? How would ganking would be more frustrating when literally she wont have her camo early on. She literally has to walk up to you to gank you.

forcing them to play more passive

Oh like shaco/ez/twitch/lee/gragas? Btw ez and twitch are 10 times better than eve when it comes to ganking and killing. Especially twitch.

Have you even played her

Ofc i have and i would play lol just because of her, if she wasnt so damn bad as a pick.

Her E is only better on tanky targets if she manages proc W.

Its only natural since those spells are better against tanky opponents.

Her ulty has a big CD,because it's an good escaping tool as well.If you find yourself in a clutch you can escape with it,but sacrifice a damaging burst for it

Ekko's ulti can function pretty much the same, and has only 110 on rank 1, and dealing more dmg because it has better scaling ( except when eve is ulting under the threshold ) while also healing him.

Again,you don't need to force procing the mark

With only 2.5 sec its difficult to not rush it

PokladnicaZlaOct 28, 20171 votes

She sitting at a 51$ winrate in Diamond according to leagueofgraphs.

Pls,just don't tell me you're building protobelt on her?

NyarlathοtepOct 28, 2017

Not really. Or at least not that often.

FeeI my StingOct 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As much as I hate the idea of trying to support AD/Hybrid Eve, and as much as I dislike this E change for being a surface-level appeal to old Eve players, the actually rationale behind this change likely has nothing to do with AD Eve.

The important thing here is that this is a total AD ratio, and its replacing the flat base damage.

Having a totalAD ratio in place of base damage is pretty common. You can see it in a spell like Gnar's Q, which has only 5 base damage at level 1, but has a 115% totalAD ratio. There's a couple of reasons Riot would do something like this:

It increases the effective base damage of the ability at rank 1, by making the base damage scale with level. If you take E at level 1, it will still do similar damage as on live. But that damage will increase with level, meaning its damage will scale without having to put levels in it. This is helpful for Eve because she tends to max Q first.

It decreases the value of maxing that ability first. If Eve were currently to max E first, at level 9 it would do 90/140 base damage. With the PBE changes, it would do only 73/122. This pushes her into maxing Q and reduces the potential snowballiness of an Eve that maxes E.

It increases the maximum base damage. At level 18, her E on PBE's base damage reaches 101/168, compared to the 90/140 it would do as just a rank 5 ability.

It makes Gunblade good. I hate this, and I don't think this is the main reason they are doing this, but it might be.

So overall, its a buff early and late, but not a buff to her midgame. It will solidify Q as the ability to max first, and it will open up some optional build choices, though not necessarily entirely different builds.

Seems like a good idea from you
also seems okay as a thought
I don't know if Riot goes that fastback they said they don't want to see Evelynn build Hextechgunblade and balance her around it because she doesn't intend this way. I hope we don't see nerfs to compensate this buff

JustMonika13Oct 27, 20176 votes

People were crying about Eve not having AD scalings any more and looks like Riot finally gave the bitches what they wanted

EDIT: Becuase “muh hybrid champs” and “muh build diversity”

HaIlMonitorOct 27, 20171 votes

Rip.

Darth SidioussOct 27, 20171 votes

She doesn't have the attack speed steroid in E anymore that's what made On-Hit even viable and the base dmg made warrior enchantment decent early

BarcidOct 27, 20174 votes

It's an ability that acts as an auto-attack - it applies on-hit effects, and most every ability that does this comes with % AD scaling (generally it's a flat 100%).

Ez and Fizz are good examples to look at for this. It's actually more weird that they had flat base damage to begin with.

INoble KnightIOct 28, 20171 votes

But wasn't Ezreal originally a mage?

Shadow HazardOct 28, 20174 votes

She is a dogshit champ right now and they are trying literally everything else other than the primary request since the community accepted that there is no more AD scaling.

SukishooOct 27, 20173 votes

Cause people cried that she was missing AD so Rito gave in :/

ThunderSkelettOct 27, 20174 votes

that is defintily not the reason

CowseedOct 27, 20173 votes

Gunblade Eve for the win bitches!

[sg-kiko]

Hexs FortuneOct 28, 20172 votes

The real question is, can we somehow squeeze in that sweet item 3147 burst passive

Darth SidioussOct 27, 20171 votes

As someone who played old AD eve.. I dont even understand it.. lol

Done25Oct 27, 20171 votes

It basically lets her buy ad items in lane for last hitting. (Ex. Cutlass)

OleandervineOct 27, 20171 votes

I find it really odd. Her current kit design doesn't support AD items or even the Gunblade, because Protobelt is a better Hextech option due to the HP, CDR, and the dash. Having AD scalings now is just pointless because there's not really any place she can squeeze it into her kit prior to late game.

SpideraxeOct 27, 20171 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/4juB9T8l-quick-gameplay-thoughts-october-27?comment=00150001

Better JunglerOct 27, 20171 votes

The thought process is that she was previously able to benefit from hybrid builds, and now she doesn't. Riot is returning that portion of her kit to her in an effort to make her a bit more reflective of her old kit. Chances are they will lower the ap scaling a tad, then give it an ad scaling to balance her back to the point she is now.

ThunderSkelettOct 27, 20171 votes

More me it feels like it buffs her early game damage.