not throwing any numbers around since i don't think its a numbers issue with this item
would that fix the issue of it being build primarily on assasin's instead of its intended group the juggernauts?
Big Lincoln3 votesjuggernauts haven't stopped building the item
it's just that cleaver has become a baseline item for all fighters (and some assassins) instead of being a niche build, and I think that's a problem considering the amount of utility it offers
it really was best when it was 500 health and 30 AD; it worked exactly how riot wanted it to, as an item exclusively for juggernauts
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1KnWdMG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-23T02:37:14.739+0000)
juggernauts haven't stopped building the item
it's just that cleaver has become a baseline item for all fighters (and some assassins) instead of being a niche build, and I think that's a problem considering the amount of utility it offers
it really was best when it was 500 health and 30 AD; it worked exactly how riot wanted it to, as an item exclusively for juggernauts
instead of adding armor shred to garens spin, this is what they should do imo.
increase cleavers armor shred by 5% to 35% maximum, decrease the ad value to 30 and increase the health to 500, to make it a better jugg/fighter item stat wise overall.
then they can do something different with garen.
it was always intended to be a fighter item first and a situational assassin item. now that assassins have their own itemization, they should solidify cleaver as a fighter item.
Big Lincoln1 votespersonally I feel it should be changed to % armor ignore; being able to amplify your ADC's damage is a bit much, it should have perhaps, more selfish application.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1KnWdMG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-23T02:50:32.469+0000)
personally I feel it should be changed to % armor ignore; being able to amplify your ADC's damage is a bit much, it should have perhaps, more selfish application.
i dont know about that, but i can definitely agree with the stat changes.
black cleavers health should have never been nerfed in favour of its ad. especially with how riot has shaved health off almost every defensive item over the course of the last season, while changing juggernauts to scale with health as one of their biggest stats. this could help out all of them.
at least when theyre picking up cleaver.
Big Lincoln1 votesi think it's too strong a stat to have % shred, is all. especially with champs that can apply it quickly and in AoE
if it was changed to % ignore it could probably be allowed to have stronger personal stats, as well.
Anonagon2 votesCleaver is a fine item. I don't know why some people think that it should be some kind of Darius and Garen exclusive item. Its not like its even being heavily used on champions outside its intended audience - most ADCs that used to use it don't anymore since the changes to other armor pen items, and I think assassins using it is acceptable.
Critmaster Garen1 votesCleaver is a fine item. I don't know why some people think that it should be some kind of Darius and Garen exclusive item. Its not like its even being heavily used on champions outside its intended audience - most ADCs that used to use it don't anymore since the changes to other armor pen items, and I think assassins using it is acceptable.
not exclusive, but the item was desinged to synergize with these champions in particular, and shouldnt be as effective on adc, or worse even be used to more effect by adc against the champions it is targeted at.
back when the item was changed to what it is in preseason 3, it was targeted at cdr scaling fighters and assassins. however, back then assassins didnt have their own itemization that was designed to synergize with them, and they were mostly borrowing items from adc, building items like bloodthirster and infinity edge and pray to rngsus for crits on their assassinations.
now that assassins have their own dedicated itemization, imo they can easily change cleavers stats around to really make it a full on fighter item.
i still dont understand why they even touched cleaver in preseason 6 and sacrificed some of its health for more ad just to cater to marksmen who might want to buy it, when it was never designed for them in the first place. they shouldnt even be taken into consideration when it comes to the item since it was never targeted at them.
Anonagon2 votesYes, it shouldn't be as effective on ADC, and it already is not as effective on ADC. Cleaver's stat line is simply more beneficial for bruisers than it is for carries. Health is more benefical for champions with higher base defenses, built-in defensive steroids, or some form of health scaling - things fighters and tanks have that ADCs don't. CDR is better for champions who do a larger portion of their damage with abilities - meaning not ADCs. The Rage passive on it is also halved for ranged champions.
By taking Cleaver, ADCs are choosing an option that provides significantly less raw DPS than another item in exchange for augmenting their spell damage and damage to tanks. That's not a bad thing. That's a legitimate build option that should be available to them.
While I certainly think that if Cleaver were particularly strong on ADCs and not strong enough on fighters, changes should be made, I don't think it needs any changes at the moment.
Critmaster Garen1 votesYes, it shouldn't be as effective on ADC, and it already is not as effective on ADC. Cleaver's stat line is simply more beneficial for bruisers than it is for carries. Health is more benefical for champions with higher base defenses, built-in defensive steroids, or some form of health scaling - things fighters and tanks have that ADCs don't. CDR is better for champions who do a larger portion of their damage with abilities - meaning not ADCs. The Rage passive on it is also halved for ranged champions.
By taking Cleaver, ADCs are choosing an option that provides significantly less raw DPS than another item in exchange for augmenting their spell damage and damage to tanks. That's not a bad thing. That's a legitimate build option that should be available to them.
While I certainly think that if Cleaver were particularly strong on ADCs and not strong enough on fighters, changes should be made, I don't think it needs any changes at the moment.
there are bunch of adc who picked up cleaver soley for the ad, cdr and armor shred components. the cost for the health and rage passive is a minimal factor. possibly even too small.
juggernauts overall are not doing well right now, and reducing cleavers ad, while increasing its health to at least partially make up for all the health nerfs of season 6 could give them a good nudge.
fighters have generally high base damage from their abilities, and would value 200 more health on the item more than those 20 ad.
Requiemsfire1 votes
