hey riot tanks like expensive bling just as much as adc

agbudar·Apr 7, 2017·97 votes·3,099 views

stop making items worse and cheaper all hail our lord and savior Randuins from the constant onslaught of crits lets keep this item great.

dont make us vote for trump #makealltanksgreatagain

56 Comments

VerxintApr 7, 201715 votes

We're losing 10% crit damage reduction for an 80/80 armor/mr item and something with an active that doubles our HP in a teamfight. I can live with this.

agbudarApr 7, 201739 votes

ow so we get to live 2 seconds extra?

how much you wna bet that item will get NERFED TO THE GROUND? just as hard as COTC

VerxintApr 7, 201722 votes

I mean if literally doubling your defenses only gives you 2 seconds longer to live, then 10% crit reduction is giving you about 0.25 seconds longer to live.

Since the item cuts your damage by 60%, I'd imagine if they felt it was too strong they'd increase that instead of decreasing the tanking aspect.

"NERFED TO THE GROUND" is also a pretty hyperbolic statement about CotC. It's still really good on the champions intended to use it.

agbudarApr 7, 201717 votes

cmon now 40 armor/mr and doubled with more then 3 champions around.

and on top of that a must buy active for tanks.

thats too good to be true.

VerxintApr 7, 20176 votes

Except they're there, so you can deny all you want. The items aren't labeled experimental, meaning they will likely go to live in a similar state.

The nerfs to Randuins and Sunfire are to compensate for this. Yes, it would be too good to be true to have current Sunfire and Randuins AND these new items. That's why they're nerfing the less interesting, passive parts of Sunfire and Randuins and adding more interactive items that make tanking engaging instead of a stat check.

Your willful ignorance is astounding.

agbudarApr 7, 20175 votes

im saying all that with the implication of riots track record.

OyddAWqJ5rApr 8, 20172 votes

Not to mention the synergy between CotC and this item.

SH AzykanApr 8, 20171 votes

cut it on activation, which means malphite ults blows his combo then pops it for the biggest fu in league because he did his shit and now try killing 300 armor 180 mr 5k hp malph....shudders

TuffnarApr 8, 20172 votes

Complains about 10% crit reduction getting removed because it will gut tanks, complains about how new tank item doubling your hp and giving 80/80 will only make you last a little bit longer. Choose one, you can't have both.

(im referring to how the 10% crit chance isn't going to even compare to how much time you get in team fights off of the active.)

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 20172 votes

You forgot that the more defence you have the lower it reduces dmg

RalanrApr 7, 20177 votes

No. It reduces it by 60% regardless.

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 20171 votes

Nope the more armour you have the less % dmg reduction you get.

RalanrApr 7, 20174 votes

Effects: +40 Armor +40 Magic Resist Unique Passive - Stone Skin: If 3+ enemy champions are nearby, grants +40 Armor and Magic Resist Unique Active - Metallicize: Increases maximum and current Health by 40% and increases champion size, but reduces damage dealt by 60% for 4 seconds (90 second cooldown). If Stone Skin is active, the Health increase becomes 100% instead.

Where does it say what you're saying?

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 20171 votes

sigh I'm not talking about the item I'm talking about armour on general.

RalanrApr 7, 20172 votes

I assumed you meant that buying armor reduces your own damage.

Warlord DienekesApr 7, 20173 votes

He's referring to percentage damage blocked because of Armor/MR.

Like if an attack would deal 100 damage, against an opponent with 100 armor, it would instead deal only 50 damage. But if that same opponent has 200 armor it would deal 33.333. So looking at the damage dealt it makes the value of having more armor seem smaller.

But, honestly I think that's kind of an odd way of looking at it, since it's comparing the effect on the enemy instead of the effect of the one using the armor. If you instead look at how long a character survives based on armor, then it instead becomes a pretty flat graph. A character with 0 armor will survive as long as it takes to go through their health bar. While a character with 100 armor survives equivalent to 2 health bars. 200 armor is 3 health bars. 300 is 4 health bars. And so on.

And it has to work that way, otherwise you get weird scenarios where the armor could theoretically reach a point where no damage is getting through at all.

5000000000000000Apr 7, 201713 votes

Armor and MR does not provide diminishing returns. If you have 2000HP and 30 base MR, you can tank a total of 2600 magic damage. Every additional point of MR adds 20 effective HP to your effective health pool. That is not diminishing. It's ineffective to stack resists without getting HP, because HP and resists amplify each other, but it's not diminishing returns.

It's technically true that you get less %reduction, but you get the same amount of additional tankiness (just like how stacking AD isn't diminishing returns because it doesn't increase DPS as much the first item spike, but it gives same amount of extra damage on your AAs and spells). Giving the same amount of %reduction is actually increasing returns, and also broken af.

NyarlathοtepApr 7, 20171 votes

Armor and MR does not provide diminishing returns

Yes they do. Also how the hell you get the same amount of additional tankiness when the %reduction is less? Look I might be stupid. But as far as I'm concerned you cant really get more tanky after a point.

5000000000000000Apr 7, 20176 votes

Going from 2k ehp to 2.5k ehp and going from 2.5k ehp to 3k ehp is gaining the same amount of tankiness. It doesn't look as good when you look at the percent increase (first is 25% increase, second is 20% increase), but they're gaining the same amount of tankiness.

Armor and MR work basically the same way. Each point of armor/MR grants the same amount of EHP regardless of how much resist you have, assuming the same amount of HP. Percent reduction is gonna decrease because going from tanking 5 AA to 6 AA is 20% increase in tankiness, but going from tanking 10 AA to 11 AA is only 10% increase. You're still tanking one more AA.

AnidanApr 8, 20174 votes

1 armor = 1% EHP (against physical damage) 1 MR = 1% EHP (against magic damage)

This never changes at any point. The only thing that limits your tankiness is the limited item slots. You can calculate the maximum possible EHP against physical/magical damage using spreadsheets and then build those items based on the enemy team comp but that's unwise given other factors to consider. The only things that will ever change up your EHP value from there are true damage and defense penetration, but barring those you always gain a static 1% EHP of your listed HP value per point of armor and MR against their respective damage type.

Actual diminishing returns are when your points are just inherently less valuable per point than they are previously. Say that 10 points of dodge in a game gives y dodge chance up until z value. After z value is crossed the points now give a reduced value of x per 10 points. This means after the threshold of z has been crossed, the value of dodge has been diminished and mathematically reduced by calculation. Armor and MR in League never cross such a threshold, and as such they never face diminishing returns.

Now, there is a point where you would decide to build more HP over armor/MR, but that's not due to diminishing returns that's due to the now-increased value of HP in this case. If you have 200 armor and MR but only 2500 HP then getting 600+ HP is going to be more valuable to you than, say, 50 armor or 50 MR because it gives you defense against not only physical or magical damage but also the opposite type and defense pen, and not only that but it also gives a larger health buffer against true damage. But the value of armor/MR never diminishes, HP just becomes more valuable, like crit does when you have more AD/AS.

Backup4nowApr 8, 20172 votes

100 hp 0% dr = 100 ehp = 0 armor 100 hp 10%dr= 111 ehp = 11 armor 100 hp 20%dr= 125 ehp = 25 armor 100 hp 30%dr= 142 ehp = 42 armor 100 hp 40%dr= 166 ehp = 66 armor 100 hp 50%dr= 200 ehp = 100 armor 100 hp 60%dr= 250 ehp = 150 armor 100 hp 70%dr= 333 ehp = 233 armor 100 hp 80%dr= 500 ehp = 400 armor 100 hp 90%dr= 1000 ehp = 900 armor 100 hp 95%dr= 2000 ehp = 1900 armor 100 hp 99%dr= 10000 ehp = 9900 armor 100 hp 99.9%dr= 100000 ehp = 99900 armor 100 hp 100%dr= INFINITY ehp = INFINITY armor Check these numbers in-game if you like, you'll find they sync up quite well. (EX: get 100 armor, and you'll have 50% dr). Now do you understand?

Sad TyrantApr 8, 20171 votes

the formula is: 100 / 100 + (Base Resistance + Bonus resistance) so yes it does provide diminishing returns

JustARivenMainApr 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

No. It reduces it by 60% regardless.

Ayy true damage can't be reduced... Chogath anyone?

AirKingNeoApr 7, 20172 votes

I believe self damage reductions reduce true damage.

5000000000000000Apr 7, 20171 votes

It also doubles HP, so even then Cho shouldn't be affected too much, with his HP scaling.

Daddy AntsApr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I believe self damage reductions reduce true damage.

True damage

True damage is one of the four types of damage in League of Legends, the others being magic damage, physical damage and pure damage (which is only used by the fountain turrets).** True damage ignores armor and magic resistance, as well as other forms of damage reduction such as Unbreakable, Unbreakable Will and Vengeful Maelstrom.**

Damage reductions don't work on true damage, shields and absorb effects do.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/True_damage

Spell Shields such as Nocturne's, Sivir's, Morgana's and Banshee's Veil will stop any effects triggered by the true damage (Twitch's E for example).

Passives such as Pantheon's and Abilities like Jax's Counter Strike will work against on-hit true damage.

AirKingNeoApr 8, 20172 votes

The league wiki is not run by Riot nor is 100% accurate. It is missing information and as I said, considering it is a PBE item, it might reduce it.

YoungFarmerApr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We're losing 10% crit damage reduction for an 80/80 armor/mr item and something with an active that doubles our HP in a teamfight. I can live with this.

Did you also forget to mention it nukes your damage output by 60%

LankPantsApr 8, 20171 votes

Rand's is more of a jungle tank item. Lane tanks rarely even consider it since they already buy Sunfire.

Jungle tanks can't lose 60% of their damage. Jungle tanks are actually AOE damage reliant.

These changes don't even effect the same sorts of champions.

Tychusfindlay919Apr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Rand's is more of a jungle tank item. Lane tanks rarely even consider it since they already buy Sunfire.

Jungle tanks can't lose 60% of their damage. Jungle tanks are actually AOE damage reliant.

These changes don't even effect the same sorts of champions.

"Rands is more of a jungle tank item. Lane tanks rarely even consider it..."

You're joking right? And it's also core on many juggernauts, not just tanks.

Irelia BotApr 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

We're losing 10% crit damage reduction for an 80/80 armor/mr item and something with an active that doubles our HP in a teamfight. I can live with this.

Acting like only tanks buy omen... Fighters are getting screwed over by this more than people will admit.

Tychusfindlay919Apr 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bAm2ssE7,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2017-04-08T04:07:01.858+0000)

Acting like only tanks buy omen... Fighters are getting screwed over by this more than people will admit.

Amen. Juggernauts are going to feel that randuins gutting like a five star to the back.

woodvsmurphApr 9, 20171 votes

If you buy that item. And IF you do - activating it also REDUCES your damage dealt by 60% during this time. So basically the enemy can ignore you and kill your team while you are not a damage threat, then delete you. Or... champs like fiora, olaf, vayne just pop you faster via true damage - your extra 30 armor at cost of 225hp or more you lose via item changes means you just die faster. The only benefit of item changes? Harder for adc's who build any hp items ( item 3071 ) to make max use of ldr's bonus damage potential.

KoKobotoApr 7, 201712 votes

The reasons why tanks have cheap items is because tanks gold income often decrease past the lane phase as they don't have the best wave clear when people group up (unless your one of the "top tier tanks" who generally have good waveclear, one of the reason they're dabes). Tanks CAN'T have good waveclear most of the time because if they did that extra damage would also go against fighting other champions and tanks with damage is busted. Rito probably doesn't want to make abilities that only deal with minions cause that sounds pretty boring.

I do think there should be some high gold options for tanks though. Tanks that do well in teamfights and get a lot of assists do rake up enough gold. By late game tanks should be able to trade out some items for better ones if possible. Maybe create some tank versions of manamune but for health, healthheahe or something. Playing tanks late game sucks, YOU have to make the play and if you screw up you die. Hopefully the die part is lessened with the new items.

agbudarApr 8, 20174 votes

i dont mind damage outscaling defense, tank/dps is always a game you need to play right.

but with the one item that actually gave us a semblance of actuall tankyness..... idk. sure that new golem item looks smexy but im 100% that it will get nerfed because fiora mains will build it and 1v5 entire teams or some shit.

(cant reduce true damage you see)

ChønklordApr 8, 20172 votes

They already 1v5 whole teams.

crippler38Apr 8, 20171 votes

they could probably make this passive special where it reduces true damage.

Besides that fiora with GA and golem, 3 lives.

I'd more imagine they make ga and golem have unique passives though.

Gregor GysiApr 8, 20171 votes

Keep in mind that cheaper items are a buff - unless you are full build. And most games end before full build.

Darth StepVaderApr 7, 201711 votes

Personally, i wouldn't mind if there was a line of expensive tank items as well, exceeding the 3000 gold mark, which would be able to provide a weaker mid game powerspike but a much more substantial late game presence. Their flat resistances and hp stats shouldn't necessarily be higher than the ones we currently have but, they should bring to the table powerful passives.

Glory ln DeathApr 7, 20177 votes

Give us a couple of really expensive tank items with Unique Passives of the same name that make them extremely useful against one specific type of damage - one could be a strong crit reduction, one has Adaptive Helm's passive, etc (shared name so you can't just grab them all, you have to specialize).

6SfoolApr 7, 20177 votes

#push for 20000g tank builds But seriously, making ALL of the defensive options cheap is just ridiculous.

agbudarApr 8, 20172 votes

for a second i thought you meant a 20 k item

Champion SkinApr 8, 20171 votes

Well that sure would make gold relevant even in absurd 60+ min late game

LadyRenlyApr 7, 20177 votes

the constant diluting of items but making it more accessible by reducing cost is pretty bullshit, all it does is make you even more useless late game.

PhDs NutsApr 7, 20173 votes

I can't wait to build the new item on Malphite

Ult E-W-AA-Q-AA Proc active which lasts until cooldowns come back.

It's gonna be so broken.

AmazoXApr 8, 20171 votes

Jhin's Voice: You think?

item 3036 Laughs Maniacally

VoraciousXApr 8, 20172 votes

GP is going to be laughing in everyone's faces once this Randuins nerf goes through, and they probly won't nerf him even though they acknowledged he shouldn't be the way he is in the thread.

woodvsmurphApr 9, 20171 votes

They did the whole cheaper items with weaker stats thing with ap/mage items earlier - now approximately 0% of mages build liandri's aside from supports - not even rumble who used to build it as a near-essential item depending on team comp. Clearly the guys at riot making these changes are all adc mains or being held hostage by jhin and forced to make everyone other than adc's trash after 4+ items or else jhin will never let them see their families again.

agbudarApr 10, 20172 votes

yea im getting tired of that trend tbh