full lethality rune page and 6 lethality from precision (85 lethality) 
Q with 
will reduce 200 armor down to a whopping 13 armor whoopdiedoo
edit: someone pointed out its 75 lethality my bad i guess you cant trust LOL wiki anymore. original point still stands you now have 23 armor instead of 13 armor
Irelia Bot22 votes"but damage out scales defense" -marksmen who get angry over getting oneshot.
fuffychan11 votesNo, we are angry about getting engaged on, CCed, and oneshot from off our screen or stealthed with zero counterplay thanks to all the bullsh-- mobility in this game.
Irelia Bot4 votesI rest my case
fuffychan7 votesGo and play 
in a game vs 
and any ADC who cares. Tell me how much fun you have.
Kilanost2 votesjust played as jhin with a fed zed. We won, i went 17/6 if i recall correctly. I was his #1 target. Why didn't I die? I will make a diagram to illustrate.
X is me Y is the rest of my team Q is the enemy team except zed Z is zed.
Illustration: X YQ Z
Sp33d Zer09 votesWell yea, if Zed was trying to be a ranged ADC, I can understand why he couldn't touch you.
Kilanost1 votesthe point was that you keep distance between him and yourself by sticking your team between you and laying down good vision so he can't come from the side and do zed things to you.
SpecterVonBaren3 votesThat's because you were playing Jhin. Jhin is the only marksman that can get away with being that far away from the fight because of his ult, W and the fact that he doesn't need to stay near the enemy front line for long to get off one powerful auto.
Try playing someone like Tristana, it's a living hell because you can't do what you're there for, dealing damage, because being in range to do damage means you're in range to get dashed on and burst so you're only hope of winning is that one of the other champs on your team is capable of being the damage threat in your place since none of them have a giant bullseye on their back like the ADC does.
Troll for Trump2 votesWell, you're picking a champ that's supposed to be shit vs divers, so...
agbudar1 votesyea wukong's W got you covered bro
fuffychan2 votesAnd he has a shield too. Because f--- counterplay amirite?
Sp33d Zer03 votesWait... wukong has a shield? Since when?
fuffychan2 votes
Troll for Trump5 votesThat's not wukong, that's an item
Mizaya23 votes[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z3F6n9ti,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-12T03:47:40.794+0000)
"but damage out scales defense" -marksmen who get angry over getting oneshot.
"damage out scales defense" isn't the problem here
https://clips.twitch.tv/DelightfulSmoothSalamanderMoreCowbell
agbudar11 votesyea that "play" is in a nutshell the issue at hand
Sp33d Zer04 votesCan you explain what you guys mean? Because I saw an adc with no defense get melted, and a support with no armor get bursted.
NineTailedMystic12 votesI saw an ADC running MR blues (+12 MR) get one shot by a 6 ball (not 7) Syndra R and MAYBE two ticks of Ignite but more like 1 tick. A Syndra who wasn't even full offense since she's sitting on a Negatron with only 145-160 AP depending on Runes.
A Taric with no Armor? He's fucking Taric. He gets Armor just for having points in W and has a good chunk of Health from Ruby Sightstone and Targon's. The issue is that an Armor tank got almost instaburst by two ADs with minor contribution from a Syndra Q and Ashe R, although its probably more because of the level discrepancy.
Sp33d Zer09 votesEz was also 3 levels under Syndra, who had rank 2 ult. Taric was two levels under Lee Sin who had rank 2 ult.
I'm not saying Those two burst champions don't have a lot of damage, but come on, that is a HUGE difference in raw stats.
Wimbledofy19 votesyeah but dying to someone who misses every single ability is a bit ridiculous.
Sp33d Zer05 votesshe still dropped 6 spheres. Base damage alone, that's 810 damage.
As an ad main, I still agree, it's bullshit, but this was not a case of offense vs defense, it was burst mage vs paper.
NineTailedMystic8 votesYet, no other Burst Mage 100-0s with R and R alone, hm....
Sp33d Zer03 votesIt wasn't just r though. Yes the damage was all from r, but it was still prepped from other spells.
Hell, I've gotten 100-0'd by viktor ults, annie ults, almost an aurelion sol ult (he hit me with 1 tick of his passive), katarina ults, nunu ults, velkoz ults....
There are a lot of burst mages that CAN one shot you with just their ults.
Not xPeke8 votesNo way Viktor Ult can 100-0 unless you literally stand still for basically the whole duration of is ultimate.
And no way Annie's ult on impact 100-0 someone unless the person was afk for ages and is 6 levels behind.
Even assuming that Viktor and Annie can 100-0 you with just R it means you LET them do it. You stood in/near their ultimates and took alot of damage after the cast. Syndra is instant cast and unavoidable unless you zhonya/tahm eats you, etc.
So comparing using Viktor and Annie as examples is wrong.
Suddenly the list of "alot" of the burst mages that can one shot have been heavily reduced.
Troll for Trump3 votesYeah, no. Taric with sightstone and targon's has more armor than a lot of other supports with only targon's and ss, but, in the end, he still has little to no armor, because he hasn't built any.
One support has 0 armor and two hp items. Taric has 30 armor and two hp items. Is that really going to make a difference? Not really.
Note that taric's bonus armor scales with armor(making him more snowball and gold dependent, for some reason). Taric at ~34 gains.... 6 armor at max rank W. 40 Armor is nothing.
NineTailedMystic5 votesAt level 9, Taric has 47.9 Armor probably rounded to 48. Bastion gives 10-20% total Armor as Bonus Armor. So, 52 Armor with rank 1 Bastion, 56 with Rank 5 but I doubt he maxed W first. I'd imagine some sort of Armor runes, at least +9 from yellows so that at least puts him to the 60s. Add on Bastion's shield and he got melted pretty quickly, but like I said it's probably just because of the level difference.
Synnx76 votes[{quoted}](name=WE Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z3F6n9ti,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-03-12T04:14:14.901+0000)
"damage out scales defense" isn't the problem here
https://clips.twitch.tv/DelightfulSmoothSalamanderMoreCowbell
I dont even know why they " whoawoaowahh" . Dmg creep League of 1 shot. Point and click ult , so much skill. If you can point and click and insta kill someone Riot thinks you're LC$ god
five oh tree 15 votesIf you survive lane phase as wukong with a full lethality page, your lane opponent was probably a potato.
Mizaya11 votesI mean he built 4 armor pen items, I'm pretty sure you could have over 200 armor with just 2 armor items + base lol.
Very Hard Engage59 votesa full build rammus/malphite gets shredded by lw/cleaver/ ANY OTHER ITEMS.
its not just lethality, its the fact that you're negating someone elses buys and giving yourself an artificial gold lead over your opponent.
Mizaya5 votesa full build rammus/malphite gets shredded by lw/cleaver/ ANY OTHER ITEMS.
its not just lethality, its the fact that you're negating someone elses buys and giving yourself an artificial gold lead over your opponent.
And the items in a full armor build aren't even 100% armor. Even if someone itemized full armor, you probably wouldn't be able to negate over 40% of their build's gold value because of all the other stats, actives, and passives.
Kilanost41 votessay 300 armor to start (200 bonus plus 100 base):
first thing that gets applied is the other tank's black cleaver: You're down to 210 at 6 stacks.
Then you apply LW which takes off 49.5..we'll round to 50 for ez maths: You're down to 160 armor.
Then factor in 85 lethality at level 18: You're down to 75 armor.
So from 300 armor you get an effective 75 armor.....or a reduction of 225 armor. That's just shy of two thorn mails and a ninja tabi's worth of armor.
Or the armor from 4.5 deadman's plates.
Or using the gold value of armor at 20 gold per 1 armor, thats 4500 gold worth of armor washed away by pen items. Thats already ridiculous.
There are two things people forget about these stats as well: First, the % armor and bonus armor stats become increasingly more efficient as you stack armor.
**Second, Each point of armor removed increases effective damage by MORE than the last point of armor you've removed. This make armor pen stats and magic pen stats the only stats in the game that actually have INCREASING marginal returns when the stats they are made to counter in fact have diminishing marginal returns.
**
This is second point probably the most ridiculous aspect of how armor pen stats work. You can't have a stat that has increasing marginal returns counter one that has diminishing marginal returns without there being a huge mismatch in the power of those stats at different extremes. The extreme of high armor vs no armor pen isn't necessarily an issue because early game before people buy their pen items because tanks wont have 300 armor or anything close to it that early. But when you get to the point where you can attack a 300 armor tank as if he has 75 armor late game, you have an issue. Oh any by the way, generally speaking anyone with 300 armor has likely bought nothing but armor and therefore either has low health (for a tank) or low MR. In a world where armor pen doesn't exist, 300 armor on a 3000hp tank gives that tank 12000 effective hp vs physical damage. With the effective armor at 75 this is reduced to ~5200 effective health vs physical damage. Again, remember this is on a tank who is absorbing damage from multiple people at once. It is unbelievably easy to mow down that kind of effective health, even assuming an all AD team. Throw in a good damage mix, its even easier because that 300 armor, 3k hp tank likely has shit MR. So one full rotation from a mage will likely knock off about 1500 effective hp by itself.
Simply put, There is a point where it no longer even becomes useful to buy armor. With all the lethality that was put in the game, we've basically hit that point. Before all these new items, the max flat armor pen was what...35ish? we'll use 35. That means in that same scenario, that tank has 125 armor after all armor pen stats are applied. That would give that same 3k hp tank an effective health of 6750. Thats about 1500 more effective health which is quite a bit more time he can stay alive if you consider everything is going to be on cooldown for the other team after the first 5kish effective health (again, this is vs only AD and incorporating AP into this just makes it worse for the tank).
Ok, your argument then becomes, "But they can just stack health and those armor pen items wont really matter." Thats not true either. Here is a list of champions that prove that (may have missed a few):
Amumu Brand Dr. Mundo Elise Evelynn Fizz Garen Gragas Jarvan IV Jinx Kog'Maw Lee Sin Malzahar Maokai* Mordekaiser Nasus Nidalee Poppy Sejuani Shyvana Trundle Varus Vayne Vi Warwick Xin Zhao Zac Zed
And here are items that also prove it: 
.
What do all these things have in common? Damage that scales with enemy health. So players can build items and play champions that do %health damage, effectively countering stacking health. And those same champions can also build a bunch of pen item that effectively counters armor.
End result is that tanks are left with zero counterplay to incoming damage other than saying screw tanking and playing an assassin/mage/diver.
This is why i highly suspect the tank rework will end up giving tanks lots of % damage reduction, shields, and/or healing. Because as things are right now, itemization and champion abilities have destroyed the idea of what it means to be a tank.
Backup4now3 votesEach point of armor removed increases effective damage by MORE than the last point of armor you've removed.
I find it strange that you say this, which is incorrect due to being misleading, but then back it up with evidence and proper math of the exact opposite that disproves the idea that armor has diminishing returns (which is correct; armor doesn't have diminishing returns). Why'd you even do that?
Anidan3 votesMy guess is it slipped his mind and he didn't reconsider it. I've noticed that happens a lot and the misinformation gets out as a result. Armor and Magic Resist have no diminishing returns. Unless it's changed since I was last into heavy theorycrafting for League, 1 point of either resist is 1% EHP, at all times. The % reduction is diminished, because 100 Armor is 50% damage reduction while 200 Armor is 66%, but the EHP remains the same throughout, meaning there is no diminishing return from resistances. This isn't like WoW where, say, Dodge was the same value per point up to pre-established limit and from that point thereafter every point of Dodge was worth inherently less than previous points.
Kilanost5 votesI forgot about that part of the math. But still, the rest of the post holds.
Though because effecitve health is a function of resistance and health, you could argue that there is an opportunity cost to the armor (not buying health) that may be implicit in how it works. aka the more armor pen there is, the more valuable health becomes by contrast.
Cosmic Warper2 votesfizz doesn't have % hp damage anymore btw.
And imagine that build with the old last whisper lmao. It wouldn't be 13 armor, it would be 0
statelesskiller7 votesyou MIGHT have a point there.
but this item says "all tank items get nerfed"
Anidan5 votesWell, I mean.. that's the point of armor too, isn't it? You're negating the enemy's raw damage purchases and giving yourself an artificial gold lead in that respect, too. This kind of thing goes both ways, don't forget that. You don't get to cry foul on that specific issue while you go around and do literally the same thing. There are many ways to say that the armor pen issue in this game is out of control, but that is not one of them.
Anyway, this is kind of a self-imposed problem. Damage values in League are absolutely bonkers due to scaling, which means that defensive values in this game can get absolutely bonkers to combat said scaling, which means damage has to be bonkers to break through it. Then you get into armor/magic resist penetration to help break the cycle in favor of damage dealers - and this part has to be carefully maintained. There's a reason why DotA2 has most of its armor pen come from a hero to hero basis rather than sprinkling it over a lot of items - because this means heroes don't have to get so tanky that a hero who doesn't favor buying armor pen can still have a fighting chance of breaking through them.
Skias7 votesBlack Cleaver needs to not be shredding team wide. That is the biggest issue. You basically are at a disadvantage every game if you stack armor because BC is so generalist. The stats it gives are so universally effective, tons of champs use it. So it gets stacked on you and your armor is worthless because the entire team got that pen for free.
Thilmer3 votesBlack Cleaver needs to not be shredding team wide. That is the biggest issue. You basically are at a disadvantage every game if you stack armor because BC is so generalist. The stats it gives are so universally effective, tons of champs use it. So it gets stacked on you and your armor is worthless because the entire team got that pen for free.
Why an ítem that gives HP and AD, also gives armour pen and CDR... Nonsense.
TheIronRevenant6 votesPlaying Rammus with like 250 armor and almost 4k hp, killed in 3 seconds by 2 ad
Woodakoodashooda5 votesI laughed because I almost thought we had a match together. That is my build! But you forgot the other item that makes all the Soraka mains rage these days.
agbudar4 votesyou probably could but i dont think it would be necessary in this case
the only tanks that i see go above 200+ armor are 
and they are a rare sight these days
Sp33d Zer04 votesUnfortunately, if you had a full lethality rune page on wukong, you are going to melt like butter.
GigglesO25 votesWho cares when your ulti kills them first?
Surveil2 votesIt still means something against AD carries...
GrandpaTheGreat3 votesHardly when they have
Lovelle II2 votesYeah building armor almost seems useless unless it has damage, or some other effect, attached to it. Better off playing a damage dealer, so you can actually carry a game.
