Courage of the Collosus is OP but ... if only the other resolve tree keystones were good,

agbudar·Nov 26, 2016·76 votes·2,933 views

personally i would say to get rid of the flat base alltogether. that's 190 shield less at lvl 18

but its also the first viable tank keystone i feel has good interaction from a gameplay perspective. big impact shield with the longest Cooldown out of all the keystones and lets not forget the shield lasts for 4 seconds and 1-2 seconds of that your target wont be doing damage anyway because you stunned/knocked em away.

I just wish riot would take a look at undying grasp and Bond of stone. they feel pathetic compared to any other keystone out there.

78 Comments

HazyCloud7Nov 26, 201628 votes

Bond of stone especially is such a waste of a keystone. They could definitely come up with something better than some "hidden stats" as they refer to things like that.

woodvsmurphNov 26, 201613 votes

That feeling when your keystone damage reduction is negated by a mid tier mastery from a different tree*[zombie-brand-clap]*

LordGeovanniNov 28, 20161 votes

techincally 4 of them form 2 different trees

DeathBot666Nov 26, 20163 votes

Its especially bad now that since almost everyone who benefits from Bond can just grab courage, and build item 3109 , which has better reduction stats, heals you, and also comes with some decent base stats. Only downside is that it only affects 1 person.

FrodoBagginsesNov 26, 201622 votes

Knights Vow is currently just straight up better Bond of Stone. Most tanky supports might as well take colossus and get knights vow. Now they essentially have both keystones except the one from knights vow is actually good.

Sire HippingtonNov 26, 20165 votes

Not saying bond of stone is good, but the argument "Knights Vow is..." is simply stupid. Bond of stone and that item don't exclude it's other or stand in any such relation. If we'd double the value for both things,Bond would suddenly be strong while Knights Vow is still straight up better. I could also say BT is a straight better Warlords, as it gives 20% lifesteal at all times rather than just at low health, all while giving a shield and more ad than fervor without needing to stack up like fervor.

Compareing an items power to a keystone is pointless!

Bond of stone is bad because it's bad, regardless of what Knights Vow does.

Hinagiku33Nov 27, 20162 votes

However, Bond of Stone and Courage of the Colossus are both mutually exclusive Keystones and thus have to be compared to each other since they compete for the same space.

As long as Knight's Vow exists, then Courage of the Colossus is even better since you don't really give up Bond of Stone as there is a good item that emulates the same effect.

DengedenNov 26, 20162 votes

Not having BoS is absolute hell when your ADC gets engaged on. I'd say it's still preferable on supports that already synergize with anti-engage.

And Grasp is free sustain. Sustain is toxic since it invalidates trades. It's intentionally kept subpar since even the slightest in-game advantage will make it snowball.

A little extra health is worth nothing at lv 18 bro. At least on tanks it isn't. If anything give it less base health as the game goes on. That way non-cinderhulk tanks aren't completely screwed over by your suggested change.

SinlaireNov 26, 20161 votes

Riven has broken a 60% win rate in Plat+ ranked game play running CoC.

You tell me if 180 is a lot on a champ that generally maxes at about 2 - 2.2k health.

DengedenNov 26, 20162 votes

SMH

She doesn't have that winrate because of a little extra health and lv 18. Do you have any idea how fast ADCs and mages melt that at lv 18?

woodvsmurphNov 26, 20161 votes

If you are playing a tank, bos is bad. take either of the other coc or grasp and force the enemy bot lane to focus you. You will win if your adc and you are not boosted. If you are playing a disengage squishy, take shield/healing keystone -- why play janna or lulu with bos? That's just stupid.

DengedenNov 26, 20161 votes

It's almost like Windspeaker's boosts your shield strength, allowing you to protect your ADC.

"Force the enemy bot lane to focus me"? Erm ok, lemme just get my hacks out real quick. Oh I know you can dive deeper than ever before with CoC but some playstyles and some tank supports don't benefit from that. Taric. I'm talking about Taric but I'm sure there are others.

woodvsmurphDec 6, 20161 votes

enemy adc goes up to last hit, but has taric stun staring him/her in the face: adc get's the cs and takes free poke from taric and his adc; or adc doesn't get the cs. #forcingENEMYadcTOfocusTHEtankSUPPORT Cuz that was hard? And YES. Always take windspeaker on a shield/heal support. I posted explaining why you don't take bos on TANK supports. I personally wouldn't take BOS on any support because you are either a damage support like brand or vel and should run dft or thunderlord, a tank support like taric, braum, leona and should run coc or grasp, or a shield/heal support like janna, lulu, sona, raka who should run windspeaker. Running coc, grasp, bos, thunderlord, or dft on a shield/heal support like sona or lulu doesn't maximize your ability to carry.

DengedenDec 6, 20161 votes

Focusing Taric will do nothing if he managed to line his stun up. He already has a shield and a heal.

WyrmbladeNov 26, 20162 votes

Undying grasp is underrated as hell, it's fucking fantastic for early trading.

CandoodleNov 26, 20163 votes

it's good on top lane tanks, jungle tanks or support tanks not so much, and even top lane it's the dmg it offers in trades that makes it good not sustain or tank value

MirkhailNov 26, 20162 votes

The sustain should not be underestimared, it is often the difference between a good or bad trade.

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 20162 votes

grasp is trash. its only situationally good on champions like maokai who can combine it with their innate sustain.

i wish riot would just add silences to the list of hard cc so i have one single keystone to actually synergize with.

Sire HippingtonNov 26, 20162 votes

Yea, CoC is somewhat OP right now(though mostly so for lane), but it's not as broken as most poeople make it out to be as it's only 4sec, procs on the forst cc you do wether you want it or not and has a big cd. Playing around a rather short shield that has a big cd is actually quite possible. With the PBE nerfs, it will probably be perfectly fine, still strong enough to punish people that throw all their **burst **into the initiateing tank(focus the tank shouldn't be a valid taktik if you don't pack heavy tankbusters or find him really out of position), but less abuseable in lane.

Now, even if balanced, it still will be used 100% on most melees with reliable hard CC, and tanks/fighters without hard cc will still not get used that much, and if they do they don't go resolve, because the resolve tree overall still sucks, bpnd of stone and grasp are both quite weak, and grasp imo fails the tree by beeing damage oriented rather than helping to survive, and bond is just quite a bit boring and hard to notice, and lower ranks still are bad overall. Now add in the bad spot of new fervor, and fighters like Shyvana or Garen have no really statisfying option at all.

agbudarNov 26, 20162 votes

for garen i just go thunderlords i get flat armor pen cough cough lethality and that works better at taking down squishies so i dont consider it to be too much of an issue.

shyvana just got massive objective controll buffs (something she is good at anyways) so i dont think she will be in too much of a bad spot that reminds me garen is going to get a massive buff also with those armor pen buffs to E on the pbe

RexSaurNov 26, 20161 votes

Tank mains are ridiculous, they already have the most broken mastery in the game and now they want the other 2 to be as broken too, lol.

HazyCloud7Nov 26, 20169 votes

CoC on live is completely broken (and even after the PBE nerfs it will still be a VERY strong keystone, maybe still too strong) but I think this post is moreso trying to focus on the fact that the Bond of stone/Grasp are underwhelming compared to other keystones in the game.

Grasp is like a better, slightly different version of greenfather's gift; its not fit to be a keystone.

jeanne mulaneyNov 26, 201620 votes

"Tank mains are ridiculous, they have one meta mastery and would like to have other options for champs that may not be able to utilize it as well".

It's like saying since the offensive tree already has Deathfire Touch they should make sure Fervor sucks. Or that because Windspeaker's Blessing exists Thunderlords shouldn't be as good. Different champions take advantage of these masteries and that needs to be reflected in the viability of the choices.

i am very highNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Tank mains are ridiculous, they have one meta mastery and would like to have other options for champs that may not be able to utilize it as well".

It's like saying since the offensive tree already has Deathfire Touch they should make sure Fervor sucks. Or that because Windspeaker's Blessing exists Thunderlords shouldn't be as good. Different champions take advantage of these masteries and that needs to be reflected in the viability of the choices.

OH YOU'RE TRYING TO DEFEND DIVERSITY IN THIS GAME? WELL HOW DARE YOU I'M A ZED MAIN AND I USE THUNDERLORDS SO THATS THE ONLY KEYSTONE MASTERY THAT SHOULD EXIST IN FACT WHY DOES RESOLVE EXIST AT ALL ITS STUPID AND NOT USEFUL ON ZED AT ALL. AND WHILE I'M AT IT I THINK TANK ITEMS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME AS WELL SINCE IT'S HARD TO ONE SHOT PEOPLE WHEN THEY BUILD TANK ITEMS IT'S TOXIC AND YOU'RE TOXIC AND GTFO I'M PRO ZED MAIN

CzephNov 26, 20162 votes

But tank is not invincible. It can be destroyed by those who know how to counteract. Example: I know how to kill a Rammus using an AD champion, in a 1v1 fight, without life steal items.

TequilaZombieNov 26, 20161 votes

I'm not sure if this is a smurf or not. Regardless, you shouldn't be doing such bold statements on a level 18 account.

Automated RivenNov 27, 20161 votes

a level 18 rammus with thornmail vs any level 18 adc without lifesteal wins. everytime. bar none. always. period. there is no "I can win this if I play right" that in and of itself is as close to 100% countered in the game.

LordGeovanniNov 28, 20161 votes

not if that adc has red buff. or and if has any mr and still has movement speed to kite. ramus aint getting no where. people forget that even though riot tells people that they have to peel for adcs adcs have tools to peel for themselves too

Automated RivenNov 29, 20161 votes

yeah if the adc has red buff .. and no damage because he stacked armor, and want to engage in a 120 second fight I guess its possible for the adc to win. but then your gonna lose the game anyways.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

pretty sure you were talking about a 1v1 fight with adc and ramus which almost never could happen and that blood thruster only beats thorn mails and adcs can just kite through ramus passive.. and crit through ramus when its down i was only meaning thornmails ramus veruss adc with red bufff

CrettNov 26, 20161 votes

Whatever the other masteries are, I hope they aren't cooldown based. Tanks need some more Innate Beefiness

woodvsmurphNov 26, 20162 votes

replace bos with a nasus/sion/veigar style keystone: bonus armor/mr for each minion/monster kill and each champ kill/assist. Less likely to be broken than giving bonus hp because you can't reach 100% immunity with armor/mr -- cap out at 99% or something and mortal reminder and lord dominick's would still remove much of this armor due to % penetration. Probably have to go with very low armor/mr per kill though like 0.5 or something. You make tradeoff of having crap early game in return for great late game.

Thus after killing 200 minions, you have 100 bonus armor/mr. So that's actually probably a bit too generous, but i'm sure Riot could find a good number.

CrettNov 26, 20162 votes

as much as I'd love Sion with this change, I'm scared non-tanks will grab this item and become unstoppable.

like tank ekko

Automated RivenNov 27, 20161 votes

any bruiser. I would take that every day on riven. But I take CoTC also

QuephaNov 26, 20161 votes

The other resolve keystones are good.

Bond of Stone is dramatically underrated because the way it works is very unimpactful, but even that 4% damage reduction is really strong for a keystone.

VerdadeNov 26, 20161 votes

Meanwhile Knight's vow at 12% ;)

QuephaNov 26, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Knight's vow at 12% ;)

Maximum irrelevance.

agbudarNov 26, 20161 votes

they both work together on a multiplicative manner

so with both your adc effectively gets 6% and 12% damage reduction which adds up to. 17% personally i wish they would be simply added up for a cleaner and clarity sake.

VerdadeNov 26, 20161 votes

Additive reducion would be broken, as it would get incredibly overpowered when stacked with other reductions (such as armor, flat damage reduction from abilities etc.)

agbudarNov 26, 20161 votes

no im just saying how bond of stone and Knights vow interact. they are an outside source of reduction so they would still scale multiplicative with the adc's own armor

i am very highNov 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they both work together on a multiplicative manner

so with both your adc effectively gets 6% and 12% damage reduction which adds up to. 17% personally i wish they would be simply added up for a cleaner and clarity sake.

this just in 6 + 12 = 17

agbudarNov 27, 20161 votes

ow for fuk sake thats how percentage multiplication works, I even made a point of saying so

LordGeovanniNov 28, 20161 votes

this is really the part that is irrelivant as people are talking about the tanks defenses not the adcs

CowseedNov 26, 20161 votes

You know it's OP when I can alost 1v2 a Katarina and Poppy with Urgot

agbudarNov 27, 20162 votes

they must have been bad.

that being said an urgot played right can also be a monster so tbh this really doesnt ilustrate much

Automated RivenNov 27, 20161 votes

you realize the last shield we had in the masteries was 50 flat all game. and it only happened when you died. I would say half the base and only allow the percent max to stack like twice. And I abuse the hell out of that mastery before anyone accuses me of being salty. It isnt far to every other champion in the game that doesnt have hard cc to have to see it on other champions. When i can take a tank mastery on liss mid and feel like its really strong there is something legit broken.

ZT XperimentorNov 27, 20161 votes

Of all the nerfs I've heard for this mastery, this is the only one that makes sense; makes it useful for tanks and no-one else, as it should be in the defensive tree.

agbudarNov 27, 20162 votes

yea its going be 7%>5% most likely but w/e still not bad 25% max shield is still good

just really pissed at the 45-30 sec based on lvl part.

ZT XperimentorNov 28, 20161 votes

I agree there; the cooldown for a shield isn't remotely comparable to how fast damage scales up from the other masteries.

LordGeovanniNov 28, 20161 votes

when something comes along that coutners TLD. got to have that op thing nerfed. i havent seen the key stone do anything noticeable since it was released ive been playing all week