@Meddler: You reverted Kog'Maw's rework. Please do the same and revert Taliyah to pre-6.14.

Astôlfo··14 votes·1,312 views

She doesn't need buffs or changes. She needs a complete revert.

When you and devs first created Taliyah, you made her an extremely specialist, high-skill, zone-pressure/control mage with a completely unique but amazing and perfectly fine new casting method on her W.

Some people loved her and immediately began to main and practice her and learned how to actually play her despite her difficulty and clunkiness to the inexperienced. Experience made it completely obvious that her W casting method wasn't clunky, it was just different.

In addition, the W lockout specifically PREVENTED her from being a quick burst mage because of the delays on both E and W as well as their animations as an alert. So to land a potentially massively damaging combo, the Taliyah player had to learn how to play her and get very good at her. The E HAD to go first, meaning that was an immediate warning W was probably coming. After that, W lockout means she couldn't do anything else AND had to predict where the enemy would be AND account for them trying to move out of the way. If the Taliyah player was good enough to do that, they were rewarded with a decent amount of burst, but nothing too much for the skill required.

However, those who barely played her because they were lazy or unmotivated complained and whined that her W casting was clunky and the lockout was clunky and stupid and such. Those who had a TON of experience on her, or even just enough to START getting the GIST of her, knew it was perfectly fine and SAID SO REPEATEDLY.


But Riot listened to the former group.

They changed W casting to vector casting. Taliyah's W timing is EXTREMELY important to her. Vector casting INHERENTLY FORCES a human delay, as it will not start until one drags AND lets go of the mouse. Old W casting started immediately on first click. New W FORCES the delay from the dragging and letting go of the mouse. Even those few fractions of a second are a massive delay for such a timing critical ability. In addition, it made it impossible to do a straight vertical knockup. Also, it made it impossible to be free to choose. Old W didn't "choose" a direction until the second click. You had until the very last fraction of a second until it would actually trigger (1s countdown) to pick or not pick. New W FORCES you to pick at the start.

They removed W lockout. This made Taliyah become ALSO a burst mage, reducing her specialist nature and making her generalist. This allowed her difficult E-W combo to be done as W-E, which is far easier and far harder to react to. As a result, her perfectly balanced E damage had to be nerfed into complete and utter trash.

At the same time around then, Q got bonus damage to minions for no good reason. This let her waveclear even faster and in turn, let her splitpush far faster with less punishment. This again reduced her specialist nature even more and made her ENTIRELY generalist at this point. So again, she had to be nerfed into trash in each individual aspect to make up for it.


So now we come to her PBE buffs. What even is this? Are you joking? The increase in damage reduction from subsequent hits PUNISHES GOOD TALIYAH PLAYERS FOR LANDING SHOTS. She gets a buff to early that's meaningless because she was a mage, and all mages are meant to scale into late. And this EFFECTIVELY PUNISHES HER FOR BUYING AP DUE TO THE DAMAGE REDUCTION.

Seriously? Why, Riot? Why can you not just admit you were wrong and revert her to pre-6.14 which would fix every single problem with her? Not every single champion needs to be super generalist and do everything but be shit at every individual thing. And it's not even like what you described in your own post with specialist being too binary. She was still balanced in damage output and zone pressure prior to 6.14, but had utility in her ultimate and W knock which would keep her relevant.

So why?

21 Comments

Hrd2H1t5 votes

PLEASE RIOT Before Taliyah's release I didn't really have a main, so after a couple games with her I decided to main her. Just as I was getting good the W changes and E nerfs came out and that really ruined the champion for me.

MunchCrunchLunch5 votes

agreed she was fine before those vector cast changes. which led into a whole more changes that broke her and in the end made her unplayable. they turned her into an orianna where you QWE as soon as you land one of your spells. she was unique in the sense you had to set it up and not combo spam. tho I'd like to see a little less damage in a full Q because i've taken some 1200 damage from that one spell with 4 items. or even if they don't i dont care she has counterplay and shes much less fraustrating than orianna or most other shit to play against meta ap champs at the moment

jurrrr4 votes

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Astôlfo4 votes

If you think that, you're either ignorant as hell or trash.

jurrrr2 votes

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Astôlfo4 votes

She was perfectly balanced in 6.14.

jurrrr3 votes

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Astôlfo4 votes

And for all your adapting, you're still at 47%. Just like Plat+ players on her are, on average. Hmmm... Yep, she's obviously fine.

And how was she even broken? Care to actually attempt to argue that? I have a ton of experience on Taliyah as well.

jurrrr2 votes

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Astôlfo3 votes

? I'm downvoting you with this account. And it's like games outside of Ranked magically disappeared.

If someone got hit by E-W-Q at level 3, they are trash and deserved to die. And E-W-Q didn't even kill them unless you hit them with like every Q pellet + Ignite.

Project Sleeky4 votes

PLEASE REVERT I really liked Taliyah before that shitty vector casting change and the subsequent nerfs. After that I gave her up and never played her again. The W and E nerfs completely destroyed her and made her a Q bot so I ended up giving her up and not playing her again. Please revert, she is not in a good state right now at all.

Eclipse13373 votes

I play tons of Taliyah and I wish people would stop complaining about her. I played her before and after the W changes and IMO before the changes it felt clunky to use. I have to admit it did take me a while to get used to the new one, but that's to be expected.

Taliyah doesn't need reverts. Right now she is in a balanced spot besides maybe a couple of small buffs. The nerfs she got were all well thought-out and I trust Riot with Taliyah.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

the only change Taliyah actually needs is to show the area her W targets. When they moved to vector casting they removed the indicator of how big the W was and it needs to come back. In my experience, the previous targetting paradigm was too slow for a game as fast paced as this. I understand that it lowered her skillcap, but it's a bit ignorant to say "THIS VECTOR CASTING CHANGE RUINED THE CHAMP" when it also put her in LCS.

As per your point about "scaling". Mages are not meant to scale to late game - I think you meant "Marksman". Mages are intended to scale best with levels (due to increasing base damages/reducing CDs, something very important for a mage player). This means when they hit level 18 they start to slowly fall off, as item purchases alone can't really make up for the base damages you were gaining per level. This certainly isn't true of ALL mages (Cassi, Ryze, Azir, for example) but a mage's job is primarily to remove squishy targets and provide CC and utility in the lategame, not to scale into a lategame huge damage threat. They certainly provide appreciable damage, but they'll never hope to match the DPS of a Marksman. Mages are intended to carry the early/mid, when their level advantage for being mid lane is most appreciable.

I won't argue that Taliyah probably got nerfed a bit too hard as a kneejerk reaction to her being seen in LCS, but your logic is incorrect. Mages don't need to "scale". Taliyah could use some changes, but I highly doubt that Riot will ever revert the Vector casting.

Baron of Bread2 votes

The problem with returning Taliyah to that state is she would have the same problem she had at the time: skilled players with her would be far to dominant. If skilled players can reliably use the EW effectively then Riot has to reduce the reward and she would get Azired. Only those who are really good at her would make her viable and she would otherwise be trash.

They wouldn't be returning her to a healthy game state from an unhealthy one like they did with Kog'Maw, they would be taking her from a relatively healthy one to an unhealthy one.

Astôlfo4 votes

First of all, she's not relatively healthy right now. She's trash.

Second of all, she'd still be decently strong even with just her Q and E as zone pressure, like the zoning pressure mage she was originally intended to be. And the E-W combo was extremely easy to avoid and/or counterplay.

WoonStruck2 votes

She's considered a really good solo queue pick, actually.

She'd be strong with just her Q. Its damage is still over-loaded as hell and needs to be redistributed to the rest of her kit.

WoonStruck2 votes

Some people loved her and immediately began to main her.

People do this before champs are even released. Day 1 "DON'T BAN ___ I'M A ___ MAIN"

Taliyah's not a special snowflake.

Astôlfo3 votes

That's not the point I was making, if you'd actually bother reading more than a few words. It means THOSE PEOPLE HAVE FAR MORE EXPERIENCE ON HER.

The Great Divide1 votes

I think Malzahar would be a much better contender, although I can understand the case for Taliyah.

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Revert Shen too while you're at it.

EinarUlfar1 votes

RIOT: People aren't positioning themselves in order to dodge parts of Taliyah's kit, but still complain about it hitting them for damage ... we better nerf/butcher her so they don't have to.

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