Why not give her proper cooldowns?
At the moment her cooldowns are 8 / 4 / 6 / 45 or even 4.8 / 2.4 / 3.6 / 27 with CDR
That's hardly "reset based gameplay" that is spam your insanely low cooldown abilities regardless of what is happening
How about giving her proper cooldowns to make her resets more impactful for when they happen instead of her current faceroll?
I Kill Commies27 votesOr Riot realizes that reset on kill/assist mechanics can never be balanced in league.
thebloody712 votesOn kill reset is balanced since there is a risk getting the reset or no can make a huge difference. the only on kill reset in the game currently is Darius.
Knight SoIaire 3 votesthe only on kill reset in the game currently is Darius.
kha zix trista akali
3 off the top of my head man
1st HanarSpectre6 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T06:24:39.995+0000)
kha zix trista akali
3 off the top of my head man
He means on kill only, not on kill & assists, Darius gets nothing on assists.
Knight SoIaire 1 voteskalista's rend is there too being a perfect example like darius
someone noted irelia and she is also darius class
owerall riot avoids resets i think, they always tend to blow up the ballance at some point
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votesirelia is actually good, and her dash isn't on a massive cd. Darius doesn't even get a true reset because has 12? seconds to ult again before it goes on cooldown. It'll reset as long as he gets kills with it, but it'll inevitably be on cooldown. He's also melee and lacks a gapcloser.
LankPants2 votesFiora's E only fully resets on kill, otherwise it halves the CD Irelia's Q is technically an on-kill reset, it's just a bit less restrictive of what defines a kill.
Spinning Axes1 votesDraven's passive only works on kills, just thought I might add.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Spinning Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-03T05:16:14.923+0000)
Draven's passive only works on kills, just thought I might add.
draven doesn't lean as heavily on his passive to not be useless.
Abyssphere1 votes[{quoted}](name=Spinning Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-03T05:16:14.923+0000)
Draven's passive only works on kills, just thought I might add.
And that leads to a lot of frustration when Soraka's bananas keep last hitting.
captainkaiger1 votesBut when you do insane amounts of damage, and you go right for that ADC, do you really think/play like you aren't getting that reset? It's a hypocrisy, because the only reason people who play assassin's are QQ'ing about Talon, is that he doesn't get a freeset. He does a ton of damage, a blink, a damage amplifier, and an ult that can be used as an engage OR an escape. But god forbid he goes and 1v3's, gets two kills, and can't get out.
Also, only on kill rest is Darius? Might need to double check on that.
MrBuffington1 votesEspecially on a resourceless champion
Visigoth1 votes[{quoted}](name=C9 MonkeyD Luffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-02T05:30:09.023+0000)
Or Riot realizes that reset on kill/assist mechanics can never be balanced in league.
I would say Kha'Zix's E reset is relatively balanced considering you have to Evolve it and give up early damage
Poptart Evelynn15 votesWhen you have a kit based around resets and speed it's best to balance the kit's power along lower damage output on low cooldowns instead of high damage on high cooldowns. (In order for her to pull her full damage in these abilities it requires her to play extremely risky)
Q is an okay poke skill but to obtain it's full damage you have to play risk. No problem with this cooldown. W is a close range utility move that is mainly for position and quick re positioning within close range. No problem with this cooldown. E has a higher cooldown than the other skills for its mobility use and when used for offensive means puts you in a risky situation. Decent cooldown for what it does here. R however is a high cooldown early game and low cooldown later on for it's easy to avoid and stop. no problem here either.
Adding higher cooldowns would mean increasing the damage and on a reset champion with high damage you have even bigger issues. Lower cooldowns is easier to balance with resets for they are balanced to not deal as much damage unless risk is involved.
Kat needs some changes but cooldowns isn't the issue.
Knight SoIaire 2 votes(In order for her to pull her for full damage in these abilities it requires her to play extremely risky)
i would argue on the "risky" part, she can get banshe and zhonya
Adding higher cooldowns would mean increasing the damage and on a reset champion with high damage you have even bigger issues
i think you misunderstood op here
she gets longer cooldowns because she has resets, there is nothing about increasing her damage
the ops point is that her kit is based on resets but still quite good without them, longer cooldowns would enforce her as reset based champion and gave her a new effective counterplay in denying her resets, thus starwing her capability to wreck your team
right now even if you deny her the resets, she is still free to use her basic spells which arent gated by any long cooldowns, so she is still free to continue looking for opportunities to get that reset
i dont realy know if i agree with op, his point is certainly valid - a reset based champion should rely on resets and he should be at his weakest when he is denied resets but on the other hand there is the way kata gains resets, right now its 3 seconds, if enemies deny her for a little while they could basicaly remove her, on the other hand when the reset was at any assist/kill she was able to just go in ult and zhonya, then wait for her team to provide the resets by finishing off anyone she wounded hard enough
so while this change is healthy and fits her intended gameplay pattern, it would require a wery well thought process of ballancing the way kata can earn the resets and enemies can deny her resets
so rework would be easier in the end
Poptart Evelynn10 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-02T06:23:47.117+0000)
i would argue on the "risky" part, she can get banshe and zhonya
i think you misunderstood op here
she gets longer cooldowns because she has resets, there is nothing about increasing her damage
Both of your comments are opinionated. There is no arguing it's risky for a kat to jump into 5 people and try to pop one regardless of items.
Second, I think you need to understand the standpoint on Kat currently. Kat is not strong and Riot is trying to figure out a way to redesign her kit to allow more "options" or "enjoyable interaction". She just isn't fun to face at all atm is the issue. So if riot nerfed her cooldowns they would increase her damage so that she could lane still. You do realize how uselss Kat would be if you just up'd her cooldowns and did nothing else.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesYou do realize how uselss Kat would be if you just up'd her cooldowns and did nothing else.
with her currently nerfed passive yeah with her pre nerf passive i would see her hardly even feel it since she still would rely on those resets, it would just enforce the hop in and zhonya play pattern, and make her rely more on her team
but yeah its a fact that this can kill her and im aware of that yet the question is "should a champion who lives only by reseting his cooldowns have low cooldown skills" and my answer is nope, the entire gameplay of katarina is about reseting the cooldowns so her natural weakness should be relying on the reset instead of normal cooldowns
we speak more about the concept of kata's gameplay than the impact on her current gameplay
Moonshade1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e1AsA6Hh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T22:24:29.254+0000)
with her currently nerfed passive yeah with her pre nerf passive i would see her hardly even feel it since she still would rely on those resets, it would just enforce the hop in and zhonya play pattern, and make her rely more on her team
but yeah its a fact that this can kill her and im aware of that yet the question is "should a champion who lives only by reseting his cooldowns have low cooldown skills" and my answer is nope, the entire gameplay of katarina is about reseting the cooldowns so her natural weakness should be relying on the reset instead of normal cooldowns
we speak more about the concept of kata's gameplay than the impact on her current gameplay
Heres something about Kat, in teamfights unless you have all your spells off CD you wont be able to do much without that reset. Kat goes in takes out a target then needs the Shunpo rest to either get out or to her next target, without it the low CD on sinister steel isn't really worth much since you wont get to another target, unless you pop flash. As for her Q, its not good to use mid team fight unless its to get the reset off of a fleeing target or just before diving in, since it has a longer animation that will probably get you killed. Her low CD spells are more for the whole farming aspect and to provide laning ability. The nerf they did to her reset window changed her playstyle somewhat too since now she pretty much needs to get the kill to become the scary blender we all know, but before she could initiate on a squishy, Zhonyas when the enemy focused her letting her team kill off a squishy so she can get a reset to shunpo out or to the next squishy to kill. Now its kill or I don't get my reset and will probably be focused and die...
Are1 votesDon't forget that her skills also have really low bases.
Durzaka1 votesI agree for the most part. Her problem isnt the damage, but rather the incredible speed she can put out her damage.
Whenever i get assassinate by a kat as someone who isnt a tank, i got look at my damage recap and see it is ALWAYS under 2 seconds. WHich is just insane.
Jefftiffy7 votesExcept listing 27s cd on her ult doesn't mean anything. She can only obtain a 30s minimum. On top of that most mana regen is tied to CDR meaning she would be wasting gold efficiency on it and it isn't worth buying on her.
They just gutted her reset window hard it lost exactly 85% of its uptime. 20s 3s.
It is a pretty big nerf if you counter play her like you should and makes it harder for her to carry.
DanofDemacia5 votesShe's riots favorite dude. Thats why shes in like every cinematic.Shes always gonna be op and they're never gonna do anything about it .
1st HanarSpectre5 votesYou listed her CD at 40% cdr, yet conveniently forgot that she can't realistically get to 40% cdr unless she build inefficient and or weak (bad) items for her.
Also, the only Kat in your match history was on the enemy team, went 9-12-2 and lost the game, such OP.
Auryiel4 votesCDR on Kat?
LMFAO
And the reason why is because Kat's abilities are not impactful AT ALL
The only reason she's half decent is because she can constantly spam her hella weak spells
Abyssphere3 votesI could see minor bumps to the CD on Shunpo and Sinister Steel (Shunpo 12/11/10/9/8, Sinister Steel 5 secs?) or something, but her small cooldowns on her basic abilities are largely based on how mediocre those abilities are damage-wise. Her basic QEW combo has 125% AP scaling, it's probably not something that should be on an excessively high cooldown. And Death Lotus needs a short cooldown because it's 90% of her team fight.
Katarina's passive is a powerful snowballing mechanic, but it's less powerful on her than it could be on other champions because her kit is designed to have low-impact abilities on short(ish) cooldowns, which limits the impact of her passive. If you give her higher cooldowns and make the abilities stronger to compensate then all you've done is make her much more snowbally. If she doesn't get resets she's useless, if she does then you'll wish they never changed her.
tl;dr: Voracity is arguably a poorly designed passive and her current kit is built to limit the impact it has on her. If her kit was actually built around "Kat should be aiming for resets all the time" then she would be the game's single biggest feast-or-famine champion and generally a design trainwreck that people like you would probably complain about much more than you do today.
Hinagiku332 votesAh, I remember pre-rework Kat. Good times.
Voracity used to also give 25 gold on kill/assist.
Bouncing Blade started at only one bounce and worked up as you leveled it, but also no mark to proc (it just lost damage each bounce) and had AD/AP scaling and each bounce counted as single target for Spellvamp so she could rush Gunblade like Akali.
Killer Instincts (her original W) let her hit the entire enemy team for full damage with Bouncing Blade (and gave them grievous wounds?), or give her 30% damage reduction on Shunpo for a couple seconds, and even gave up to ~22 bonus damage to each basic attack and ability cast.
Shunpo used to be a nuke with like 320 base damage and 0.8 AP scaling.
Death Lotus had even higher base damage AND scaling.
She was also considered completely terrible. Borderline troll pick. She had no farming/wave-clear whatsoever, no CC or utility, and what utterly dependent on getting an item advantage and snowballing to be useful. Practically no one played her at any level and I actually got praise for doing well with her...and lots of hate for picking her those games where I didn't get early kills and was completely useless.
So yeah...forcing a champ to rely on kills in order to get gold and be useful is actually a pretty terrible design in this game. I'm hesitant to let Riot touch her the way they've done things lately, but until they do get around to her, well, take solace that new Kat is actually quite a bit healthier than old Kat.
Vicarious1172 votes"Let's nerf Master Yi cause all the massive resets we gave him made him even more stupidly easy to play then we had intended."
"Good idea, just chunk those resets a ton and tell the community that full resets aren't a very balanced concept!"
"Alright! But then.... what about Katarina?...."
"What about her?"
"Well she's kind of based around getting resets all the time..."
"True.... but we don't care, Katarina is our favorite child so the rule is to never severely nerf her!"
Jasiwel2 votesKat is fine though. She'll always be one of those champs people argue about, but she's not a big issue given how easy it is to kill/CC her for the win. IMO, either she wins because her team was organized to begin with or because the other team was falling apart.
You could buy WotA on her if you want the CDR, but it's not necessary at all. If anything, investing in CDR is a gimp for her because there are simply better, more gold efficient items, while also the fact that her passive makes CDR investments a waste.
Kat capitalizes on sloppy play. If you aren't planning to outright kill her at any given moment or anticipating she'll do the same to you, then she'll reset-to-win every time. All it takes is one well-placed CC after she Shunpo's (doesn't even have to be a stun/knockup) and she's done. That's why she's great in YoloQ, given how organization and coordination are not great with random people.
If they need to change anything with her, it'd just be value adjustments on her lategame scaling.
SmokingPuffin2 votesKatarina currently isn't a competitive champion. She's better the weaker the opposition is -- she makes her living off the stupid players.
Balancing her more strongly around resets just strengthens the "OP in bronze, useless in competitive" dynamic her kit has.
Dedrius1 votesIf they Up'd her Cooldowns there would be no point in playing her tbh. I main kat and her laning phase isn't that great to begin with so increasing her Cooldowns would just make it even worse to lane with. Since she falls off late game, there would not be much point in playing her rather than a Champ like Ori who is just as strong in teamfights and scales harder.
SpongebobIsLife5 votesnot sure what kind of Kat main would say Kat falls off late game...
RasCaelestis1 votesOne trying to defend a champion that really should not be defended, and is grasping at straws to try to convince others of their own delusions. I'm not saying she's broken, but you need to be really bad with this game in general to not at least go positive with her. If you do know what you're doing, then there's not much that can stop you. Yes, Kat can be CC'd, but the same can be said of any other champion in the game. Saying 'just CC her and you can kill her' doesn't excuse a badly designed kit/playstyle.
Don't get me wrong, I actually really like the ability to get resets, but coupled with her naturally low cooldowns and resourceless kit, it's a bad combination. I know that she's melee and so should have a weak laning phase, but with the recent mana-regen nerfs most of her opponents will go OOM before they can burst her down. Assuming there is a fight at level 6 where both survive, Kat -like most assassins- can build straight damage while her opponents will need to focus on mana if they want to have a chance of sustaining against her.
She and other resourceless/energy champions have risen in popularity mostly because the things that countered them were nerfed so hard. I know that in the past mana-regen was almost meaningless and a nerf was necessary, but rather than making all champions equal it indirectly made certain ones too strong. Most champions designed for mid-lane have the same levels of damage across their kits, but now most mana-based mages can't access that damage until much later than resourceless/energy-based champions.
SpongebobIsLife2 votesYou shouldn't be dying to kat during the laning phase though. She has very little damage, where as most mages just completely out damage her, and are a bit unforgiving for any mistakes she makes.
xZephyrr1 votesKatarina wasn't DIRECTLY nerfed but more so the champs that were used to play against her. Zed and Fizz are good Melee champs that play well into her. Mind you BOTH champs have been nerfed. Kat's ban rate and win rate have gone up well even after the nerf to the ult so don't bother complaining about it since you appear to be in the wrong in Riot's eyes.
Hinagiku331 votesI mean if you're losing to a Kat that's building tanky and getting CDR to spam her basic abilities...well that's really sad because Kat's base damage and scaling on her basic abilities is pretty bad.
"Why not give her proper cooldowns?"
Because as things are now, if Kat fails to get a kill/assist in a single rotation she should be dead before they come off cooldown already unless she's up against a brain-dead team with no CC.
It sounds like your problem is with Kat's resets, at which point her cooldowns are irrelevant. I believe the question you actually mean to ask is this:
"Why does Kat have resets? Can we please remove them?"
The fact is, she already has 0 presence in competitive play and seems to be really under-played even in high level solo queue. She wrecks total face in Bronze/Silver/Gold(?) because there's usually a bad player she can stalk to capitalize off and teams are likely not coordinated enough to stop her ult if she's smart about when she jumps in.
What is your alternative?
Take away her resets and her identity along with it? It's really the only thing that makes Kat unique/worth playing. Give her stupidly high cooldowns to punish her for not getting a kill? Then you force Kat to kill-steal from her team all day to be relevant and/or would be forced to give her large damage buffs so her abilities are worth it.
Kat's QWE individually do not do much damage and are balanced currently around her getting to use them a lot. If you plan to change this in any way then that means giving Kat more damage, or adding CC or some sort of utility onto her kit. What's the point of picking a champion that's all damage/no utility if there's a serious gate on how often she's allowed to do damage (i.e. do anything at all)?
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votesThe nerfs only hit her win rate by .5%. She's not balanced until they make it so she doesn't get all 3 basic spells up because she got a kill.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesWhy not give her proper cooldowns?
At the moment her cooldowns are 8 / 4 / 6 / 45 or even 4.8 / 2.4 / 3.6 / 27 with CDR
That's hardly "reset based gameplay" that is spam your insanely low cooldown abilities regardless of what is happening
How about giving her proper cooldowns to make her resets more impactful for when they happen instead of her current faceroll?
First, the reset only happens if she kills/assists killing a champion. That's a pretty steep prerequisite for her only way to reset CD.
Second, her damage output is mediocre to compensate for the low cooldowns and resets. Seriously, she has to have a massive lead for her damage to be anything more than annoying.
Zeralyos1 votesWhat if Katarina is actually balanced around low cooldowns so her resets don't matter as much?
Quepha1 votesincreasing her cooldowns and making her abilities more impactful actually makes her much more imbalanced and feast/famine. think about it a little and you'll realize that a healthier katarina who still has resets will have relatively weak abilities with below average cooldowns. i honestly think riot should try to move her more into an AD champion with a lot of her damage in her autos and smaller bursts on her abilities.
IGotScuttleCrabs1 votesRiot: resourceless champs are balanced around they're kits power and cooldowns...
At the moment her cooldowns are 8 / 4 / 6 / 45 or even 4.8 / 2.4 / 3.6 / 27 with CDR +resets
Lol
