@Riot @CertainlyT - A heartfelt plea from the community

Talamare·Mar 13, 2015·123 votes·6,734 views

{quoted}

I honestly wish CertainlyT weren't allowed to make any more champions without at least one other Rioter doing it with him. He has made the same mistake what is it, four times in a row now?

He has cool design ideas but has amply demonstrated an extremely weak grasp on healthy champion design. I'm really getting tired of seeing his designs, and I can tell by the forums that the community as a whole is starting to resent it, too.

Please listen

187 Comments

HellioningMar 13, 201558 votes

CertainlyT just needs a balance guy stalking him whenever he makes a new champ, hitting him over the head with a paper fan whenever he goes 'and then I'll give them percent hp damage on their autoattacks!'

AwoofMar 13, 201546 votes

Darius "Oh, and he totally needs a passive that-" slap Jax "No, bad T! That were enough passives!" Darius :'(

KeevalroyMar 13, 201516 votes

I volunteered a while back to work minimum wage to follow him around and bonk him on the head with a wiffle ball bat when he thinks of a new champion concept. Apparently Riot wasn't interested.

WullfMar 13, 201511 votes

Not a paper fan.

You mean The Zen stick: http://www.innovating.com/wp-content/uploads/kyosaku_stick_top2.png

lojicianMar 13, 20159 votes

You say that as if the balance team doesn't need someone following them around with a paper fan.

libraryseraph Mar 13, 20154 votes

Or one of those squirt bottles you use to keeps cats off of counters and stuff

TheI3igDaddyMar 13, 201551 votes

I'm just tired of overloaded kits. If a kit isn't overloaded, balancing it with numbers isn't always that hard. But when every fucking ability has a secondary effect, or a champ has 3 passives instead of one, it's frustrating to deal with.

The5lackerMar 13, 201512 votes

Number of passives isn't the issue, number of options is. Rengar has three passives, and while he was a problem a while ago, he's pretty reasonable now because he can't do everything. He can assassinate, but he doesn't have as strong of an escape and has very poor AoE damage. But he's totally got three passives.

Ferocity, like all unique resources on costless champions, is basically a passive.
Bushleap.
Trophy system.

TruthtellerMar 13, 201521 votes

CertainlyT's champions are the bomb - absolutely a blast to play as.

Darius Yasuo Zyra Need I say more?

GloriousKaiserMar 13, 201545 votes

And people abolutely hate playing against their power-creeped kits. Now, the three you mentioned aren't so bad cause they got nerfed.

But his other champions Kalista Thresh Zed Oh man, the community absolutely despises these ones.

They are not fun to play against. Not unless you totally destroy their playstyles with full on counters.

AriafluxMar 13, 201513 votes

Zed wasn't despised till recently, so it's just meta problems, not design problems.

Thresh was despised? I don't recall ever seeing anything about him. I remember being surprised at this after seeing his play rate.

Kalista is despised yes, but it's more bad luck than anything else. She debuted at the peak of ranged hate, ADC hate, mobility hate, knock-up hate, "overloaded" kit hate, any CertainlyT champion hate. She also had the bad luck of being not horrible in LCS (not anymore though, P/B rate being 31.4% NA, 14.3% EU, 3.8% KR, 0% CN, with most of her P/B being before her nerf).

GloriousKaiserMar 13, 201532 votes

In the support community, supports hate Thresh for being that jack of all trades master of everything pick that can peel Janna pick Blitzcrank and bring his own unique power into the game while still maintaining all that power. Who cares if his specialized utility is slightly weaker? Because combined, it usually does the job anyway.

AriafluxMar 13, 201512 votes

That makes me happy, I was looking for people to hate Thresh with me :D

I was wondering why people hate on Lee Sin because he is "crowding out the other junglers", yet make no complaints about 40% play rate Thresh.

Baron of BreadMar 13, 201516 votes

A lot of the complaint at Lee Sin is not so much his pick rate (but there is hate for that) is that he also strongly counters a lot of junglers, making them non-viable simply because he is used so much.

As strong as Thresh is, he doesn't hard counter most of the supports (I am not thinking of any he does, maybe Blitz?). Sure, I dislike that Thresh is so common and that he does so much, but at least I can pick whoever and still have a decent chance against him.

RrettMar 13, 20156 votes

I don't mind thresh and zed that much, haven't played enough against kalista to really hate her. Yas and zyra though, those two can burn in hell fire for an eternity worst fucking champs made in existence.

Only Play DariusMar 13, 20158 votes

What's wrong with zyra?

Celeste BenalMar 13, 20153 votes

Whats wrong with Yasuo?

RrettMar 13, 20154 votes

He had a 45% winrate and the highest ban rate for some time.

People hated playing against him, and the stats back that up.

HawkerMar 13, 20155 votes

And to be honest, Darius is still not fun to play against if you're stuck in the same lane as him, he's basically guaranteed to win the lane because Certainlyt had to have his precious champion be unbeatable at some point of the game.

Sure, he falls off lategame due to low mobility and the like, but in the laning phase you basically have to just give up CSing and dueling, because if you don't have a ranged ability, or a jungler camping 24/7, Darius will just grab you, W you, then spin around and probably get an auto or 2 off before ulting and watching you die every time you even THINK of getting near him.

Just because he falls off lategame doesn't give any champion an excuse to be so toxic in the laning phase, Certainlyt cannot make a single thing that is fun to play against, Yasuo had to be nerfed so hard that he has the health levels of a piece of paper just to be balanced, and Zyra, well, I don't see her enough to know what happened to her.

SmokingPuffinMar 13, 201521 votes

CertainlyT is the best designer they have.

I'd sooner ask for him to design every champion than for him to leave. I really hope he's actively working on Poppy right now.

DeusVultMar 13, 201517 votes

Steve "Guinsoo" Feak will always be the best champion designer.

every champion that he has designed has been balanced and not pushed mobility or power creep forward, while all occupying a niche and being good at it

CertainlyT makes fun to play champs, but they are poorly designed, as they stretch mobility and power creep to the max and have no niche, they just excel at every role they can possibly play as and have passives and actives that bandaid everything they do so they are never in a bad spot.

SmokingPuffinMar 13, 20156 votes

I don't know about this stretching mobility thesis. He made Kalista and Yasuo, but he also made Darius and Zyra.

As far as power creep goes, Thresh is pretty powerful stuff. The rest of his champions are in and out of the meta as live balance sees fit. Lately we are seeing a lot of Zed because mana regen nerfs, for example.

The best indication that CertainlyT makes excellent kits is that most of his champions are quite popular, even when they have awful win rates. People like playing his stuff, even when it's not OP.

Only Play DariusMar 13, 201510 votes

No one disputes that his champions are fun as hell to play as. As far as interesting mechanics and abilities that compliment eachother and flow, CertainlyT is spot-on.

Problem is that his champs are obnoxious to play against.

TalamareMar 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I don't know about this stretching mobility thesis. He made Kalista and Yasuo, but he also made Darius and Zyra.

He didn't make solo make Zyra, he just worked on it Coronach and Morello

Yuki AkumaMar 13, 201520 votes

I actually like Zed, he's not exactly "fair" to play against due to how safe his kit is. He is however, the definition of an assassin. He gets in, kills a priority target, and gets out. The issue with him lies in the fact that he uses no mana, and that his "get out" is TOO safe. Thresh is a jack of all trades master of none, but being a jack of all trades as a support tends to be better than the specialized supports. However, I find he is in a good spot right now overall, you can definitely tell a good Thresh from a bad Thresh. Here... However, is where the compliments end. Kalista... Kalista the abomination of a character. They thought "What does Ashe have that needs to not be on another character ever again?" IMMOBILITY! And so, Kalista can now hop at all times and avoid nearly all melee characters with JUST attack speed. Which would be fine if she had a real drawback. Then there is the infinitely stacking execution mechanic she possesses that can out-smite even a Nunu who is level 18. That needs to be capped at 10 on epic monsters, or something of that sort. There are so many things wrong with Kalista that it would take MUCH more text to go over it, so I'll end it here. She's broken and needs an entire remake and/or multiple nerfs to make her in line with other AD carries.

GallowgrimMar 13, 20154 votes

I'd argue Kal's shit farming and slow start is a pretty big pain.

I get the passive hopping is a pain for melee - and honestly, I could see that whacked and not shed a tear - and Kal's probably my 4th-favorite ADC to play. I love Kal.

But I love her for her support-bond and for Rend, so anything done to the passive doesn't bother me in the slightest.

And I could see a reasonable number of max stacks (10 might be too low, but a cap in general isn't unreasonable) on creeps and the like not being out of line. They can't run away and have to sit there and take the spears, after all.

SO long as I can keep killswitching opponents, however? I'm happy.

BeerOfRoot4843Mar 13, 20159 votes

CertainlyT should either make all the champions or none. Or design champs with a little guidance from others.

If you look at his champs on their own, people go "Oh cool, that's badass!" but when you see it in League, people go "the fuk did I do to deserve this?".

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 13, 20159 votes

Also I'd like to point out that T had nothing to do with Zed's safety shadow

That was a change made long after release

ShínyMar 13, 20154 votes

Live balance works quite closely with the champ design team. The "safety shadow" was the work of Live balance designer Stattik and 2 of zed's creators samizul and certainlyT.

I was very much inspired by Samizul and CertainlyT, the 2 primary designers of Zed's kit. After having chats with them about why they believed Zed needed a shadow from his Death Mark, we were able to collaborate and put the current iteration of Zed's R you guys see on PBE. They very much deserve a ton of credit on this as well.-Stattik

Thresh Outta FuxMar 13, 20158 votes

What's with the hate for Thresh? Honestly, out of all CertainlyToxic's champs, Thresh was probably the closest to balanced on release.

His Q has a huge warning indicator, his E ramps up at a decently slow pace.

His W seems like where his problem lies. I'd suggest changing W to allow enemies to grab it too, and allow Thresh to re-activate W to pull it back early.

TalamareMar 13, 201547 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rentable Player,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpHlrBHt,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-13T05:06:19.743+0000)

What's with the hate for Thresh? Honestly, out of all CertainlyToxic's champs, Thresh was probably the closest to balanced on release.

His Q has a huge warning indicator, his E ramps up at a decently slow pace.

His W seems like where his problem lies. I'd suggest changing W to allow enemies to grab it too, and allow Thresh to re-activate W to pull it back early.

Thresh is probably the one that has received the most amount of nerfs and he is still chosen like 40% of the time

Chibi TemplarMar 13, 201542 votes

I'm pretty sure Thresh could do zero damage and he'd still be considered great because of all the utility he brings to the table. A hook, a push, a "get out of fail" free card for his carry, and a 5 wall slow that literally brings you down to a crawl for two seconds. Hes THAT good, and will always be good.

Zenthon PrimeMar 13, 201521 votes

Thresh is in a weird spot because despite being probably the most overloaded champion that has ever been released he doesn't feel that cheap, at least as someone who plays ADC more than supp. The support role has dealt with power creep a lot better than most roles IMO, and while Thresh is overloaded as all hell he doesn't flat-out break the game like Kalista does and he isn't complete cancer to lane against like Yasuo or Zed.

The problem with CertainlyT's champs is that they are exponentially getting less fun to be against, and his last one is so bad that it can potentially ruin the game for any one of its allies too.

rtbf209142555Mar 13, 20151 votes

That's because thresh has a shit ton of counter play and is weak alone compared to someone like Darius

LeeDarkMar 13, 20153 votes

WTF are you smoking? Thresh has ONE counterplay: don't get hooked. Darius lacks a gap closer and late game scaling. His only problem ever was the fact that his ult resets meant that once you hit six, you could never let him kill you, or he'd do it over and over again until laning phase was over. Bring a champion who outranges his pull and Darius is INSTANTLY useless.

Knight SoIaire Mar 13, 201515 votes

closest to balanced on release.

took a crapload of nerfs and still a realy good/ viable support

but thats not his problem certainlyT makes champions who have to be viable in 90% of situations they can find

at riots design panel at pax he even said so he literaly said that he wanted thresh to be able to play at every role and be effective there

so they reek of toxicity and are realy hard to ballance

Chromatic EagleMar 13, 201510 votes

Technically champs should be like that but holy crap that's bad.

Knight SoIaire Mar 13, 20152 votes

their kits should have a direction

look at panth playable both in jungle and in top but wherewer she goes he is a fighter/ assasin so any nerf he gets impacts his capability to be a tank/ assasin

on the other hand guys certainlyt makes yasuo is a fighter/ assasin/adc thresh carry/support/tank

their kits can be loaded as fk in my opinion, but they need that direction/niche

nerf threshes dmg and he still is a realy well working tank/support since he manns up loads of role which require totaly dioferent stuff

and well some tools are just too toxic like kalistas jump, i dont see them ballancing that ... either kalista will be a trash or a god

Ariel the CruelMar 13, 20156 votes

DawnGate did it better.

R.I.P. F-EA.

DirewolfiezMar 13, 20155 votes

I love how old champs that can be played in more than one role get nerfs or reworks so they're only viable in mainly one role, but CertainlyT is able to make his champs viable in multiple roles with relatively few drawbacks.

Remind me why he still has a job again?

mack9112Mar 14, 20156 votes

I hate when people use words like ' from the community ' I mean I'm a part of this community and I fully disagree with this threads message.

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 13, 20155 votes

I'd also also like to point out that silently downvoting instead of arguing the point is a bit tacky

Or are we still doing that thing where we pretend Jinx is balanced

Ariel the CruelMar 13, 20153 votes

But she's a "defenseless immobile" ADC who is "dependent on her team for protection".

. . . Heh. I still get a kick out of this.

Jarrito232Mar 13, 20155 votes

I think CertainlyT makes great champs. You guys are just KALISTA IS OP whiners. Wait a while and this will wear off. CertainllyT makes champions with new strategies to counter. They aren't "OP." They're just new.

TalamareMar 13, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I think CertainlyT makes great champs. You guys are just KALISTA IS OP whiners. Wait a while and this will wear off. CertainllyT makes champions with new strategies to counter. They aren't "OP." They're just new.

The community first began denouncing CertainlyT when Darius (his first official champion) was released

Jarrito232Mar 13, 20156 votes

The community always finds something new to complain about.

MãgeMar 13, 20154 votes

I'm not sure where I stand on his champions or his design philosophies, but singling out CertainlyT with a comment like this in a passive aggressive form of "I don't want him making champions anymore" is really inconsiderate and downright rude. If he's made mistakes and you believe such, it's much more constructive to point out what is wrong with the design rather than insult the designer directly because of a few slip ups. I don't know about CertainlyT, but I'm sure if someone said something like this to me or one of my good friends, I'd be pretty upset.

And before you get it into your head that the "community as a whole" is starting to resent his designs, I'd like to add that no, not everyone believes that. Most people who are neutral about it just don't take the time to read something like this, let alone downvote it for being so insensitive.

WolfChasesMar 14, 20154 votes

Do you really really think that CertainlyT is designing champions on his own? Dude, there are at least 3 persons working on a certain champ design. CertainlyT is probably a head of that team.

LithalityMar 13, 20152 votes

i build a righteous glory on my darius and shit on kalistas with the W for the attack speed AND movement slow, the Q for the 5% movement speed, the E when they try to AA away, then the dunk for the finish

The catalyst is nice in lane, too

Honestly, all you people do is whine

TalamareMar 13, 20157 votes

{quoted}

i build a righteous glory on my darius and shit on kalistas with the W for the attack speed AND movement slow, the Q for the 5% movement speed, the E when they try to AA away, then the dunk for the finish

The catalyst is nice in lane, too

Honestly, all you people do is whine

While I agree Righteous Glory is a great item that should be used more.

Making the argument that you need to use a CertainlyT champion to counter a CertainlyT champion... Is ... Well...

What's the word...

...