Kalista is not "overpowered", she is "broken"

Talamare·Mar 11, 2015·169 votes·16,889 views

A few number changes will never fix her. It's what she does, how she plays, that is inherently toxic against half of the champions in this game.

182 Comments

MrSlowDieMar 11, 201551 votes

She is overloaded as shit and broken as hell. she isn't even unique aside from her soul bound thing

Rend : better version of Varus Twitch

Passive : better version of Vayne Lucian

what the fuck designer thinking when making kalista?

"let's make champion that can out--damage smite, infinite mobility while having more range than lucian, same mechanic as twitch, skill that similar but better than thresh lantern, bonus vision, 2 sec stun that can't reduced by tenacity, and a tank melter skill. Yeah totally balance-able and not overloaded !!"

Imperial JapanMar 11, 20159 votes

Here's where you are wrong. How can you say that Kalista is a knockoff of twitch or varus, vayne or Lucian. What if those were actually the better versions of one another? Besides they still have better/worse aspects than Kalista. Twitch has amazing range and poison dmges over time. Not sure about varies but his ult is a hUge ass snare to everyone on the entire team. Vayne has a stun and can invis which causes some pretty cool jukes and Lucian has 2 spammable abilities and all of them being huge range. Besides thresh lantern is better in ways of allowing the whole team to use it and it IS a ULT. Also item 3035

BetaDude40Mar 11, 201525 votes

Twitch and Kalista both have the exact same range unless Twitch ults. Twitch's poison has been nerfed so many times. 36 true damage over time with max stacks is not very effective for anything but accidentally securing a kill should they get low. Even at level 18, it only does 216 true damage over time, even with max stacks. Varus's snare requires him to actually aim it (albeit it has a rather lenient hitbox). It only snares people that are close to someone else previously snared (you can see when and if you're getting snared from an ally by the purple chain markings under your feet). I don't know about Vayne and Lucian, never played them. Thresh's lantern has been nerfed before so that it only applies a shield to him and the closest ally to the throwing point of the lantern. The shield refreshes if someone grabs the lantern. Also, Thresh's lantern is his W, not his ult (his ult is the 99% slow box).

While I'm angry at how she seems to rip off abilities from other ADCs, I'm more frustrated at her interaction to anyone that cannot catch her in the slightest. For immobile melees, and many times even the mobile melee champs can barely catch up to her. Not to mention that the jump part of her kit makes no thematic sense (among other things in her kit, such as her moving wards). Why is a ghost of vengeance and hatred hopping around like a rabbit mounted on a slinky neck deep in cocaine?

As I always say, she is Mobility Creep: The Champion Edition.

bluegolisanoMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Twitch and Kalista both have the exact same range unless Twitch ults. Twitch's poison has been nerfed so many times. 36 true damage over time with max stacks is not very effective for anything but accidentally securing a kill should they get low. Even at level 18, it only does 216 true damage over time, even with max stacks. Varus's snare requires him to actually aim it (albeit it has a rather lenient hitbox). It only snares people that are close to someone else previously snared (you can see when and if you're getting snared from an ally by the purple chain markings under your feet). I don't know about Vayne and Lucian, never played them. Thresh's lantern has been nerfed before so that it only applies a shield to him and the closest ally to the throwing point of the lantern. The shield refreshes if someone grabs the lantern. Also, Thresh's lantern is his W, not his ult (his ult is the 99% slow box).

you forget the fact that his Ult massively increaces AR, his Q makes him invis and gives an AS boost as well. also, give both Kalista and Twitch a Runnan's Hurricane. two compleatly diffrent end effects. Twitch; Loads of Death Kalista; Loads of Spears of Death

BetaDude40Mar 11, 20156 votes

I did say "Twitch and Kalista have the exact same range unless Twitch ults".

Twitch's Q is very situational (as is the case with most champions that have stealth). He uses it strictly to either engage or escape (and, if he wants, he can use it to sneak around the map without worrying about stealth wards, but its short duration and fairly long cooldown make this not as effective). When preparing to engage with his Q, he has to be out of the enemy's vision range. Otherwise, they'll know he's going invisible to engage on them, and they'll be expectant. As such, they can either back off and wait for Twitch to come out stealth and then engage on him and his support, or they can suddenly engage on the support and now Twitch has nowhere to go. The escape factor is even worse due to the delay. He can wait up to ** 6 seconds** before he actually goes into stealth if someone is constantly attacking him. To put this into effect, if Nasus starts seeing twitch go into stealth, all he has to do is wither and Twitch won't be going anywhere for the entire duration of the channel, assuming Twitch is being hit in the face by Nasus the whole time.

I don't know what you mean with your last point. Yeah, Twitch fires off several shots at a time and infect multiple people with his passive, but that's about it. Not only does Kalista get to dash every attack (and with Runaan's, this means she attack a WHOLE lot faster) but she basically has a literally infinitely better version of Twitch's E.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 20154 votes

Give up explaining. He thinks we are comparing whole champion kits Twitch vs Kalista, when we are just comparing one ability. He doesn't get that, even though multiple people point it out and he keeps throwing out: but this ability that and that ability this that has nothing to do with this topic or conversation. And he even brought up Ahri up above for who know what reason.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 201513 votes

I believe he wasn't referring to Twitch or Varus's whole kit, but one ability. Twitch has an ability that will detonate for damage based on how many stacks of poison are on the target as a nuke. Varus can detonate his blight for a nuke as well. This is similar to Kalista to one exception: Varus can put up to 3 stacks of blight on a target and Twitch can up to 6 stacks of plague. Kalista has no limit on her spears, although they only stay for 4 seconds and with 2.5 attack speed that is 10 spears that do more dmg with each one that is lodged. As you can see, this is a better version of Twitch's and Varus's design, especially when Hurricane is used.

As for Lucian and Vayne, they were regarded as the two mobile ADCs known for their dashes. Their mobility has caused them to be considered to be overpowered and hard to balance. Kalista pretty much obliterates their mobility.

Not to mention she has a skill that gives vision and takes 20% max health. Plus a Malphite ult. Just thought I would add that part in. :)

Edit: 20% max health as magic damage. Why couldn't they leave her as pure AD? Now tanks build armor, only to get that 20% nuke every 6 seconds? Come on now, you can at least not give her mixed damage. Changed that to 6 seconds, forgot they buffed it. :S

AnidanMar 11, 20154 votes

The spears have a really short duration, but don't they refresh when you hit? I've seen people with way more than 10 spears lodged in their abdominal cavity.

Chespin2013Mar 11, 20154 votes

but twitch passive barely does anything now ever since they reworked him

Rubber JesusMar 11, 20153 votes

It's not his passive I'm talking about. It's his E, the nuke ability. He can only have 6 stacks of plague, therefore when he uses his E ability, he can do a max amount of damage. With Kalista, she can throw endless spears, and then Rend with a massive nuke. See below on the cap. Also, I'd to point out Twitch does not get a reset on this when it kills an enemy target, and he also does not mana refunds for killing enemy targets.

ACTIVE: Twitch damages all nearby enemies afflicted by Deadly Venom.png Deadly Venom, dealing physical damage equal to a base amount plus bonus damage for each stack of Deadly Venom.png Deadly Venom on an enemy. BASE PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 BONUS DAMAGE PER STACK: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 (+ 20% AP) (+ 25% bonus AD) MAX PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 110 / 155 / 200 / 245 / 290 (+ 120% AP) (+ 150% bonus AD)

Kalista: Max E Damage (cause she maxes Rend first): Base dmg 6 stack 220 + (210% AD)

With 6 spears and Rend, Kalista does 220 (+ 210% AD) while at 6 plague stacks Twitch does 290 (+150% bonus AD). Kalista does more damage with 6 spears on her nuke than Twitch does on his limited 6 stacks, but Kalista has no limited, and her CD can be instantly reset if she has a Hurricane and minion nearby to kill, with mana refunded. See the difference? Twitch gets invisibility, but Kalista has vision and a 20% max health nuke (woah, two nukes in one kit?!?!) that deals magic damage. That's a little much.

2pudge1cupMar 11, 201514 votes

what the fuck designer thinking when making kalista?

CertainlyT doesn't think and just adds more and more and more. It's his calling card.

Chaotic ReksMar 11, 20158 votes

CertainlyT

AshenFoxMar 11, 20154 votes

{quoted} what the fuck designer thinking when making kalista?

CertainlyT Lead champion designer of such champions as: Darius, Zed, Thresh, Release Zyra, & Yasuo

Welcome to CertainlyT champs.

ABlueQuakerMar 11, 201529 votes

I actually like Kalista's playstyle although I think her E gives too much objective control and I don't like the interaction between rend stacks and hurricane.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 201546 votes

Twitch and Varus have a limit to their nuke. Maybe Kalista should too?

junglerboy16Mar 11, 20158 votes

This^ both of those guys can still deal crazy damage to objectives just like Kalista, but the issue with Kalista is that she instead gets it in the form of one over the top objective burst, where they get theirs as DPS boosters.

FiskMar 11, 20156 votes

Yeah I'm not really sure why they didn't put a cap on Kalista's rend (at least a soft cap come on). Also I wish they would change the distance in which she jumps because it makes her really good at kiting :/. But her playstyle is really cool.

JevelFaithfulMar 11, 20159 votes

I think they said they "wanted to try to see what happened to give strong objective control to an adc". I would like to say I'm kidding.

(The source is lost tought. I'm sorry about that. I hope someone can find it.)

EDIT : from the Q&A, they explicitely say they are keeping an eye on it (tm) and they say they want to see if people would change strategy knowing there is basicaly a squishy nunu on steroid on the enemy team.

We are watching this closely. It's a risky mechanic to say the least. Specifically, we are concerned that it will discourage enemy contestation objectives, rather than changing how enemies contest them. Ideally we observe Kalista's opponents making more of an effort to do Dragon/Baron before her or choosing to team fight rather than go for the steal.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 20157 votes

"Let's see what happens to objective control when an ADC can do more damage than smite." - Riot

Just watched a Korean LCS game. Kalista did 2K damage to Baron. Shout casters said, I can't believe Riot hasn't put a cap on that, at least against monsters. 2K damage to Baron is ridiculous.

Ariel the CruelMar 11, 201510 votes

Don't worry, Smite does ~1000. As long as you have 3 people on your team with smite and perfect timing/teamwork, you can still steal it.

Malix FarwinMar 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I'm not really sure why they didn't put a cap on Kalista's rend (at least a soft cap come on). Also I wish they would change the distance in which she jumps because it makes her really good at kiting :/. But her playstyle is really cool.

i dont like that she can do more damage in one instance then smite.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 201511 votes

Let's not forget tanks cannot just build armor against Kalista, because whatever genius at Riot decided to make her second nuke, the 20% max health for AA with her soulbound on a 6 second CD, deal magic damage. Oh, her Rend nuke killed you and you decided to build armor? Well, too bad. She has that % max health nuke in magic damage so good luck getting another 3K to build against that. Seriously, at least make that deal physical damage so tanks don't have to build two different kinds of resistances when a Kalista gets fed. Rend nuke can be painful enough, but that 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% of target's maximum health max health hurts a lot on a 6 second CD, too.

Kuroi86Mar 11, 20151 votes

Until you realize any tank with half a brain should have at least 100 MR and many team fights last a lot less than six seconds... Besides, if a tank is doing their job, they are more than happy to keep Kalista' attention, it means she isn't watching for the assassin about to slit her throat.

Rubber JesusMar 11, 20156 votes

100 MR is still 10% max life, which is a lot of damage. Since tanks are front line, it wouldn't be hard to get that damage poke in the beginning of a fight, and the end. It's just one AA from Kalista, that's not a lot of attention. Plus, with Runaan's, she may be intentionally hitting the tank to get some spears into another player nearby. If she is with Thresh, just have Thresh throw a hook so the squishies dodge, and if he lands it, you get to take one out, and if he misses, you get 10% dmg on someone afterwards with a quick AA. Not to mention, if you both attack the ADC or APC then they probably aren't going to have that much MR, and will be taking a lot of magic damage from her.

My main point being: It's just a rather large nuke to have, in addition to another large nuke Rend, with both of them doing two different types of damage.

VÎRJHÎNMar 11, 20151 votes

yer thats a good idea but if you play kalista you know that you rarely stack that many, max about 10 but still thats more than twitch and also she is too good at drag or baron so that limit would be a massive nerf

Rubber JesusMar 11, 20152 votes

That's my point. About 10-12 is what normally the most people would get. The people who may get more than this would be pros. Pros would abuse this unlimited spears in Dragon and Baron with way too much control over them. When pros start dominating and showing all the tricks this season, and others catch on, it may lead to unnecessary damage nerfs. Her kit is overloaded but there are simple ways to fix this. Fix it to where you limit the stacks to what most 'normal' players achieve, so they aren't nerfed (except when they get hyper-fed but that is fair IMO to have a cap on that to prevent outrageous snowballing but still do massive damage). She already has mobility, she can keep that. She has a % max health nuke as well, and I'd argue making that physical damage so it fits in with the rest of her kits and allows counterplay through armor.

I mean, I don't think that is a massive overhaul. 10-12 spears is still a lot, and more than most hit. She still gets % life damage, and the numbers do not change, but type of damage does so people can build defense against a fed Kalista. Honestly, I think that would help curb pro abuse and preview any Veigar like 'compensation' down the road.

Edit: Even a cap of stacks on monsters would be welcome.

TheHobbitsMar 11, 201520 votes

Limiters.

Put a stack limit on her Rend and a limiter on how many times she can hop with high attack speed. Being able to hop faster than poppy with ghost on is not right.

JunkοMar 11, 20155 votes

As somebody who mains Poppy, her W speedbost is complete shit and is not worth comparing to any mobile champion.

TheHobbitsMar 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GKUlb6me,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-03-11T14:48:51.594+0000)

As somebody who mains Poppy, her W speedbost is complete shit and is not worth comparing to any mobile champion.

I said with ghost, not W. How is it I was unable to catch up when ghost was active?

JunkοMar 11, 20153 votes

Because i assumed that, by using Ghost on Poppy you also used W, cause otherwise it's not different from let's say "Shaco with Ghost", hell Shaco with Ghost will outrun Poppy because of his higher MS

Knight SoIaire Mar 11, 201518 votes

this is a problem that every champion certainlyt makes face

they get owerloaded kits that allow them to perform well in barely any situation you cvan think off

look at kalista 1)kiting adc with top tier kiting ... god tier kiting i should say 2)tankbuster with stacked rend and %dmg 3)top tier utility for an adc

is there an adc that fills all those points at once ? varus lacks kiting sivir doesnt bust tanks so good vayne lack utility

and the list goes on none of our adc's can cover all those things with their kits, not to mention that kalista gets top tier tools for all of them

in the end numbers cant realy ballance those guys becuase their kits amplify them so the sweetspot beetwen op and up which we call a ballanced state is impossible to hit, on top of the fact that his champions also have counterpicks, so they can vary from being trash tier to being god tier depending on matchup

Rallen320Mar 11, 201510 votes

I think you might be the first person i've seen actually make the distinction between broken and OP. Everyone who posts here thinks they're the same thing. Release xin was OP, original eve (with stun) was broken.

just a little pet peeve of mine.....

TalamareMar 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I think you might be the first person i've seen actually make the distinction between broken and OP. Everyone who posts here thinks they're the same thing. Release xin was OP, original eve (with stun) was broken.

just a little pet peeve of mine.....

I agree with those words as well

It's even pretty clear by the meaning of the 2 terms

Overpowered clearly stating that the power is currently over acceptable limits Broken meaning either the programming is broken or that the design is

In this case it is the design

RaptameiMar 11, 20157 votes

{quoted}

A few number changes will never fix her. It's what she does, how she plays, that is inherently toxic against half of the champions in this game.

That's like saying Pugna is toxic because mana flare shits on Skywrath.

It's called counter picking aka strategy. You don't have the right to demand to pick the same champions every match.

boymeetsleaugeMar 11, 201520 votes

{quoted}

That's like saying Pugna is toxic because mana flare shits on Skywrath.

It's called counter picking aka strategy. You don't have the right to demand to pick the same champions every match.

Who is Pugna? Is that DoTA 2? There ain't room for tha both of us!

Sozan5Mar 11, 201510 votes

{quoted}

That's like saying Pugna is toxic because mana flare shits on Skywrath.

It's called counter picking aka strategy. You don't have the right to demand to pick the same champions every match.

There is a big difference between regular counter picking and just straight out countering over a third of game champions - especially when Kalista herself doesn't have many counters - and neither is countering her as hard as she counters those champions.

Battlecast SonaMar 11, 20152 votes

"kalista doesn't have many counters"

Hi my name is Tristana and I'm the longest range ADC in the game with two point and click damage abilities (one of which that is a knockback). Kalista can't step to this shit.

Nin10do0014Mar 11, 20158 votes

Hi, we are the majority of Melee champions who do not have multiple forms of Hard CC or multiple forms of gapclosers.

Aatrox Darius Chogath DrMundo Gangplank Garen Irelia Khazix Malphite Nasus Nocturne Nunu Olaf Pantheon Poppy Renekton Rengar Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner Talon Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Volibear XinZhao Yorick Zac

Kuroi86Mar 11, 20151 votes

You do realize many of them aren't going to run into Kali until mid/late game, at which point, Kali will be dead long before she can do much of anything.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 11, 20154 votes

aatrox has jump slow, Darius has a range pulled, cho has knock up, mundo has a slow every 3 seconds, gangplank slows ans has insane movespeed, garen gets movespeed buff, irelia has a jump, Kha'zix has a jump, Malphite has slow and Jump, Nasus has 99% slow over time, noc has a jump, nunu has slow and movespeed, Olaf can neglect CC, and slows, pantheon has jump stun, poppy has jump (Possible Stun), renekton has stun and 2 possible jumps, Regnar has slow, Root, and jump. Shyvana has movespeed and jump. Sing has Slow, Root, Grab, Sion has, Stun, Slow, Stun, skarner has stun, slow, movespeed, pull, talon has slow, slow, jump, movespeed, trundle has movespeed , terrarin slow, tryndamere has slow, jump, udyr has stun, slow, voli has grab, slow, movespeed, xin has slow, jump, knockup, yorick has slow, Zac has knockup, slow, jump.

Dont be talking when you dont know a champs abilities

RrettMar 12, 20156 votes

I'm not sure why they allow CertainlyT to make champions.

Every. Single. Time. They wreck the game and everyone hates playing against his champions.

BerserkInfernoMar 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

A few number changes will never fix her. It's what she does, how she plays, that is inherently toxic against half of the champions in this game.

only half?

warpenguin555Mar 12, 20154 votes

i saw an idea about how kalista should do less damage when jumping back, a little extra when going forward, and the same when going side to side. Would you guys like that

also link the thread if you can

Tentacle LoveMar 11, 20153 votes

Broken in the sense that she's not an Attack Damage Carry. She's an Attack Speed Carry.

Instead of building to her best three stats (which would be attack damage, crit, and attack speed) She has one, and only one, best stat.

No matter how well you balance her abilities, you're always going to have a problem with her because she gets damage, movement, kite potential, defensive dodging, and exponentially increasing objective control from a single stat.

Mind you, this does mean that as soon as a champion comes along that can nerf the crap out of that stat, Kalista is dead. Nasus's point and click wither is 100% Kalista counter. If he gets promoted into viability, you can expect him to become a sudden 60%+ pick-ban against her. (in much the same way you see the interaction between Lissandra and Zed) If you don't believe that, I called Kalista with Runaan's as ridiculously OP when people said it was a useless item for all characters no matter what and that she would never be viable. Take from that what you will.

In hindsight it's easy to see that an ASC benefits incredibly from an item that literally has 100% of its stat budget devoted to Attack Speed.

You want to nerf Kalista? Convince Riot to rebalance Runaan's Hurricane to incorporate other stats into it. Lifesteal would be a nerf to Kalista, but a buff to other ADC's. Attack Damage would be a nerf to Kalista and other ADC's would consider the item. Movement Speed would flat out hard counter Kalista. It would be a direct nerf to her with no benefit to anyone and the item would instantly become vendor trash. She would become absolute worst ADC in the game, because attack damage is a horrible stat for her. It's about 80% of normal effectiveness on Kalista.

And that's before you figure out that as soon as you enter a bush, go over a wall, stealth, or go around a corner, you suddenly take 0 damage from Kalista. (If she loses sight of you, her spears fall to the ground harmlessly)

Brenticus12Mar 12, 20153 votes

What annoys me is that she has decent range for such a great kiter with so much mobility (Ashe used to be the best kiter if played right but she has no mobility to make up for the slows) while Lucian who used to be the most mobile ADC has such shit range.

TheHappyDUCKYMar 11, 20152 votes

make her passive have 2 or 3 second static cooldown.

MandaariMar 11, 20153 votes

And be reduced by slows.

femméMar 11, 20152 votes

yea and that can also be said about yasuo, another certainlyT champion

TalamareMar 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

yea and that can also be said about yasuo, another certainlyT champion

In general CertainlyT makes terrible poorly balanced garbage

femméMar 12, 20153 votes

i was just saying it about yasuo because no matter how weak or how squishy he is, his ult is still retarded. other certainlyT champs don't have it as bad but yas getting a 5 man ult along with armor pent it's completely toxic.