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Can we stop pretending Morde having no inherent CC/mobility is something worth keeping in his VGU?

Malicious Metal··33 votes·1,653 views

I've seen people go on how Morde "works" without any inherent CC and it's part of his identity when he's been reliant on Rylais for a long time, giving him low cd' slows on every one of his abilities.

The only instance in which he didn't rely on CC was when he was built as a full AP burst mage who only needed DFG + R to kill ANY champion. He had a very quick burst combo that didn't make him rely on CC seeing that they were frigging dead in a few seconds, without even having to get into melee range due to his abilities' semi-long ranges (700 range E, 800 range R)

Nowadays Mordekaiser's closer to what he's supposed to be; A Melee Brawler, a Juggernaut who needs to get into people's faces to tear them to shreds, mixing high durability with equally high damage. Now, for him to succeed he'd have to get tools to get into melee range or at least keep people there.

And how would one do that? With CC and/or mobility.

His No CC/mobility "Identity" is something that people have grown accustomed to mentioning whenever Morde's VGU becomes the topic of discussion and I sigh every time I see people argue how Morde works without these tools.

Every other Juggernaut either has the tools to keep people close (Darius E, W, Yorick's W, E )or synergies well with cleaver that provides a great form of sticking power. They're melee after all and need some ways in their kit to get their damage off and actually do their job.

So can this just die already? The days of Morde "working" without CC or mobility are dead and gone, he'll need at least one of them to finally become a champion you can balance since the only thing he has is damage, durability and...more damage?

I personally feel CC would fit him thematically more than mobility but giving him neither would be a really foolish move.

53 Comments

Eedat7 votes

What would you propose he loses to gain CC?

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

daamge one would guess. lets be real all it takes is 3 qs to kill someone after he finishes an item

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

What would you propose he loses to gain CC?

He'd be still balanced without losing anything. After all, we live in the era where tank dps burst mobile CC champions exist (cf. Ekko for instance)

Eedat6 votes

No.

Morde in his current state is balanced around not having CC. If they randomly just handed him CC for free he would get out of hand. When giving a champion something as strong as CC there needs to be compromise

Ralanr2 votes

Which would have to happen in an update.

I'd imagine he'd lose some damage or sustain for utility.

Malicious Metal2 votes

He'd definitely lose his shield's 100% uptime that's for sure

Ralanr1 votes

But isn't that his thing?

Granted it's probably not healthy.

Malicious Metal2 votes

Strong shielding is, yes, and I really want them to keep it in a form but a shield that has no down time is extremely frustrating to play against and is one of the reasons he's been so hard to balance.

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

How do you feel about a less damaging 3 hit Q for a slow>slow>stun

Malicious Metal2 votes

His current kit with hard cc would be absolutely broken.

I'm talking CC/utility for his VGU.

To hell with his current kit, I'm emotionally attached to this champion to the point of obsession but even I see that his current kit has been a problem ever since his release. He lacks fallback patterns, has a very binary kit and generally could be so much more

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dyyB9p58,comment-id=000300010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-29T22:51:58.843+0000)

I'm emotionally attached to this champion to the point of obsession

Wuuuut. Nooo. No way

But in all seriousness, yes he needs a stronger rework. But look at what a small change like a heal for Darius can do. He's a real juggernaut now. So something small for Morde like built in cc can do wonders. Realistically they keep his kit pretty similar but change up how it functions

Eedat1 votes

But Darius has a lot of sticking power in his kit with a pull and two pretty hefty slows. Morde is completely reliant on Rylais for his sticking power.

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

That's why I asked about making his Q do less damage but also slow>slow>stun

lilpokfluf2 votes

No way man, the fact that if he closes the gap against almost any champion he pummels them to death is enough to show he can not have cc and his current damage. There must be draw backs otherwise we would have an unstoppable bruiser that would get nerfed to death

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Have him leap towards his target with each Q press! The third Q can stun as well!

ThisJunglerFeeds1 votes

Mordekaiser, The New Akali I can definitely see that happening

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

AP Riven? No thanks

Jacknife2 votes

Well, I agree and disagree. You're right, Morde's reliance on item 3116 is almost sickening (even if it would be a good item on him otherwise), and considering his binary nature, some form of utility is needed. While I definitely wouldn't complain to the VGU getting upfront CC, I believe Riot can take it another route if they're clever enough.

We saw with the new Yorick and his new W, however telegraphed, is still a form of utility without CC or mobility. The way I see it, if Morde is gonna survive, he would need one of the strongest non-binary utility spells in the game. Maybe nothing defensive like a Yasuo wind-wall, but something that has a really big impact on a fight once used.

Malevolent Metal1 votes

Yea , when they shifted him more towards a fighter they did not take into consideration the fact that he has no built in way to keep his targets in his grasp.

Big Lincoln1 votes

why?

you could pretty handily solve the problem here by giving him high base MS and an in-kit speed boost or speed sap. I don't want a slow because we have enough of this 100% uptime slow cancer ruining the game; I don't want a stun because Riot is apparently opposed to giving melee carries CC unless it's situational, and then gutting their base stats to compensate. I don't even want him to be a health-stacker, honestly; I'd much prefer enforcing his identity as a carry.

I'm not saying a "big-moment, heavy stun" attack wouldn't be thematic, but I really like the idea of mord being reworked into being the #1 damage champ and I think even despite being immobile and low-range, giving him something that's actually good would mean they'd neuter him damage wise.

TheHurricaneGamr1 votes

He diffidently needs CC, seeing how he has no ranged damaging abilities, where Illaoi Darius Yorick do. I just hope that he's still the metal god that riot makes him out to be.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

back when mord was "the master of metal" i thought it would be cool if he had the ability to like hit people with metal shards somehow and then use that to pull them to him in a magnetic kinda way where they could still move away very slowly, but they would be pulled when standing still and be pulled really fast when moving his direction. BUT ALAS!!!! master of metal, he is no longer....

Spoofghoul1 votes

I always proposed a movespeed buff tied to his shield value

Max shield no buff high shield is low buff Low shield high buff

Something from 0-75 maybe

Might be a silly idea though, but its kind of like you either have durability(shield) or mobility(Movement buff)

Very simple idea for future Morde to gain some extra tools to get into a fight and once there he can at least stick to people.

Another idea i have had for Morde is a dash where he expels his shield dealing damage in an aoe, he then turns into a black mist which dashes incredibly fast to a new location, without shield he is vulnerable and takes more damage. At new location a swirl of metal collects around the revenant and forms his new armor.

Morde would regain a certain amount of shield depending on how much damage he dealt with the initial expelling of his shield. Gets up to 25% shield back or something Damage dealt by expelling depends on shield value

So he expels shield dealing damage(depending on current shield value) in aoe as he dashes to location and gains a new shield based on how much damage he dealth( or maybe only if he hits champions) 1-25% shield. The dash is really fast but anything hitting him will deal bonus damage maybe like 25% or something.

Anyway both of my proposed ideas have a common theme, trading durability for mobility. I think this would be the most balanced way for a juggernaut to gain mobility. And it iss perhaps easiest to do on Mordekaiser because of his trademark shield passive.

JuiceNJews1 votes

{quoted}

I always proposed a movespeed buff tied to his shield value

Max shield no buff high shield is low buff Low shield high buff

Something from 0-75 maybe

Might be a silly idea though, but its kind of like you either have durability(shield) or mobility(Movement buff)

Very simple idea for future Morde to gain some extra tools to get into a fight and once there he can at least stick to people.

Another idea i have had for Morde is a dash where he expels his shield dealing damage in an aoe, he then turns into a black mist which dashes incredibly fast to a new location, without shield he is vulnerable and takes more damage. At new location a swirl of metal collects around the revenant and forms his new armor.

Morde would regain a certain amount of shield depending on how much damage he dealt with the initial expelling of his shield. Gets up to 25% shield back or something Damage dealt by expelling depends on shield value

So he expels shield dealing damage(depending on current shield value) in aoe as he dashes to location and gains a new shield based on how much damage he dealth( or maybe only if he hits champions) 1-25% shield. The dash is really fast but anything hitting him will deal bonus damage maybe like 25% or something.

Anyway both of my proposed ideas have a common theme, trading durability for mobility. I think this would be the most balanced way for a juggernaut to gain mobility. And it iss perhaps easiest to do on Mordekaiser because of his trademark shield passive.

This actually makes sense thematically, as Morde gains more protection he gets heavier and slower, when it's low he becomes ligher and quicker, not a bad idea at all.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Passive -> No change

Q -> Third hit, Mordekaiser now slams his mace with such force that it creates a shock wave traveling outward in all directions a short distance, briefly knocking up and damaging enemies along the path. The primary target is briefly stunned and disoriented(something like .5 second stun, followed by a weak slow for an additional .25 seconds or so).

W -> Lose the lame duo interaction. Self cast normal damage and MR/Armor steroid returned. On enemy cast, just like current cast on a friendly, while taking damage from the shred, armor and Mr are shredded by a few points per pulse of damage, no damage unless Mordekaiser is in range of the target it is cast upon.

E -> No change.

R -> Deals no damage on its own, is now a toggle mark with very long range and low cooldown to allow him to select a soul to capture. He can now capture the souls of large minions/monsters in the same manner as the dragon. Can also capture souls of allies. Captured souls are a pale image of their former self and only retain a fraction of their original power, scales on rank.

Base armor, health and movement speed reverted to not crap.

Hue Hue Hue Hue.

Ralanr1 votes

Hmm...what if VGU Mordekaiser was given the ability to proc the grounded effect?

The only downside I can think of is that it would temporarily negate his weakness to kiting. But only against champions that need dashes to kite (and it's possible to kite without dashes) would get ruined by this.

Sort of like making unhallowed ground in a radius around him (visually making the black mists desecrate the area). Though this wouldn't work if he still had a damaging aoe shrapnel storm.

Ðelofasht1 votes

Like all the other juggernauts, the main issue is being able to get on opponents and stay on them. By design they all suffer from being slowed or stunned to keep them from getting into the fray, thus completely nullifying their strength completely. This however leads to a binary gameplay, where if the enemy team messes up the juggernaut is going to walk in and wreck faces, or if they do not the juggernaut is going to feel worthless as they never get to do any of their damage.

I suggest an item that would give very high resistance to slows and CC but immediately turns off if the player uses a dash, flash, or other gap closer. With stats designed for what juggernauts generally want, high health, med/low AD, and maybe some CDR or an Active that does something beneficial like interacting with towers in some way. . .

agbudar1 votes

MORDE DOES NOT NEED CC!!!! item 3116 BUILD 99% ON AL MORDE AND YOU ARE CONSIDERED TROLL IF YOU DO NOT BUILD IT.

the irony is strong with people

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

your over estimating the slow on that item.....

agbudar1 votes

40% is seriously OP on a low CD NON CC champion

TotalJerk1 votes

Dunno how you overestimate 40%

Cremepie1 votes

I agree from a thematic stance that cc would be nice on morde. But from a balance stance I'd rather give him like 15 more base movement speed and remove the bonus movement speed from W, in return let it act solo on morde if he is alone.

BastionKross1 votes

Fixing Morde is a tall order after how much CerT chopped his kit up. The live balance team did an admirable job salvaging him for solo lanes, but as evidenced by his almost non-existent pick rate, it has not been a good season for Morde.

Here's some good ways to patch him up (it goes without saying that the current W bonus XP passive is removed because Morde can't be healthy in a duo lane):

  • Passive - No longer generates shield on how much damage Morde's abilities do, but a set percentage amount of his maximum shield if he lands his abilities. This liberates Morde from the feast or famine playstyle his passive ties him to; where if he has lots of damage he gets lots of shields and if he's falling behind on damage he doesn't get much shielding at all. This makes it so that even if Morde is falling behind, he can still generate shield at an acceptable rate while also reigning in some of Morde's ability to snowball into an unkillable monster.

  • Q - Putting an auto attack enhancement that requires three melee-range procs to reach maximum damage on a champion with no CC and very little mobility is just asking for trouble. How is Morde supposed to reliably nail champions with his autos if he can't stick to them? Being easily kitable and escapable is the standard counterplay for juggernauts, but even other juggernauts have CC or a gapclosing mechanic somewhere so they're not totally helpless. Darius requires you to get five stacks on the same champion to proc his passive, but Darius has a slow, a hook, and an auto attack reset in addition to a Q that conditionally adds a stack as well. If Darius needs all that help just to get five stacks once in a while, what hope does Morde have even if he only needs three? Not a whole damn lot. He needs something to help, and that's what the new W is for.

  • W - Why is Morde helping his allies by giving them a heal and a conditional slight MS boost? Morde doesn't strike me as a team player. Instead of needing an allied unit nearby to cast W, it should require an enemy (or neutral for jungle Morde) unit to cast it on. That way Morde gets his AoE aura, an enemy is surrounded by an AoE aura and takes DOT, and (here's the best part) the two auras are magnetically attracted to each other. If Morde moves toward the enemy with the aura, he gets a MS boost. If the enemy unit tries to move away from Morde, they get a slow. This helps Morde get to, and stick to, targets without completely removing counterplay since Morde still has to run to close the gap and his opponent can still do things like dash or blink or get help from allies to get away in a teamfight.

  • E - I'm pretty cool with E. It's good waveclear, it's a ranged attack so Morde has something to generate shield with against a ranged opponent, and it's an excellent teamfighting tool. You could move the heal from W to here to distribute the power in his kit more so that maxing W wouldn't always be the best choice. If the heal was moved to E it would become the choice of a passive Morde lane, while W max would be a more aggressive choice.

  • R - Not too much a of a problem here either. The ult is solid, powerful, and only at maximum efficiency if you kill the target and get their ghost leaving room for counterplay. The dragon ghost is fun too, and can stay as long as it takes nothing from his kit's power budget.

  • AD scalings - If Morde is an AP juggernaut, why the hell does he scale with AD so well? If he's a hybrid juggernaut, why doesn't he do a lot of mixed damage? Either way, it dilutes the kit and makes Morde's niche in the game hazy and confused. Either his AD scalings should be removed and his AP scalings boosted to compensate, or Morde should get some mixed damage in his kit like other champions who scale with either stat like Kayle and Jax. Q should be doing physical damage since he's nailing you with his mace, and E could do a mix of both physical and magic damage since it scales with both. Giving Morde mixed damage allows him to be a damage threat to squishy and tanky champions both, while enjoying a pretty great selection of items to build. Personally, I feel that hybrid juggernaut is more acceptable to Morde, who is powerful both physically and magically.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

I don't think CC is the answer unless there was a rework of the item system that specifically removed most forms of item CC. Then Morde might need a hand.

Erractic Eick1 votes

Forgive me, Malicious Metal, because I'm ignorant about Mordekaiser, but I honestly am curious about this: why doesn't item 3152 give Mordekaiser the cling he needs? It's got a dash for mobility, CDR, health, ability power, it's fairly cheap, and the active is on a decent cooldown for an item. Aren't those things Morde usually likes?

Malicious Metal2 votes

Not very slot efficient with its 300 hp and 60 ap. And the active doesn't stack with gun blade, which provides even more damage as well as great sustain

Erractic Eick1 votes

True. I forgot Morde has AD ratios.

Malicious Metal1 votes

A ton of people don't know a lot about Mordekaiser^^

Did you know that you can cheese your third Q strike by using W's second cast as an animation cancel?

Erractic Eick1 votes

Actually, I did know that much. I spend most of my time reading Champion wikis in order to compensate to the fact that I'm a "t0†å1 πøøß."

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Honestly with how the other Juggernauts work, it would make sense that he should have a CC ability as well (Hell, Illaoi has a mechanic that makes you want to fight her to avoid getting "vesseled"). Part of the drawback of Juggernauts is that they are slow, which is a huge problem in a high mobility meta. So they either need some CC to keep the enemy from running or need some sort of short term speed boost (DEMACIAAA). Trying to force Mordekaiser to be the Juggernaut without CC kind of makes the worst aspect of a Juggernaut even worse. I believe it forces him to need to do more damage to compensate for the lack of CC, which is pretty much how we got post Juggernaut update Mordekaiser.

UnboundCreator1 votes

ITT "my champion has an actual weakness, please make him OP riot."

Malicious Metal2 votes

This is post VGU talk.

Current Morde does rely way too much on Rylais anyways. Not really fun having to play against a perma slowing juggernaut of a champion

Nagoh Shan1 votes

What are 4 things you consider critical and non-replaceable to morde's gameplay identity?

Things like Kayle E, Riven's resource-less kit, or Cait's range.

Malicious Metal2 votes

His ultimate/Soul enslavement Extreme melee damage/swinging that ensorcelled mace Frequent/heavy shielding Slow/lumbering/ yet tenacious

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Then that's basically the damage and durability you were harping about.....if you added mobility or CC to that list then he would get out of hand. Those are the 4 things he currently does so something has to give if you want to give him CC or mobility.

ForeverLaxx1 votes

You're asking MM questions he can't answer. All he comes up with are feelings and mad ravings. That's all he's ever done.

Volgorath1 votes

Having his 3rd Q hit stun the target for 1 second. Sound reasonable?

LordGeovanni1 votes

i dont enjoy being a bruiser and loseing 70% of my hp beacuse he press q its not like i can just run with my position being a front line initiator you have to be more fed than morde to just survive him if you are melee i dont want to be locked in place too and when i come back to lane have to fight him and myself but yorick got reworked for the exact same skill with less damage

PermabannedGaren1 votes

I personally like the idea of stealing enemy movement speed, since a lot of Mordekaiser's kit seems to be about draining his foes' health. His passive gives him durability at the expense of their life, he heals himself by sucking their soul out (and gets a slave when he's finished) etc. Would fit the character I think. Would also make him less reliant on Rylai's.

TeriMaaKehBehain1 votes

How about being able to cast his W on an enemy champion where it increases Morde's movement speed towards the target and slows the enemy if he runs away from Morde?

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