@Riot I'm not usually one to say such things but I feel Ardent needs to be removed

Malicious Metal··63 votes·2,341 views

It just promotes a very cancerous play pattern and doesn't feel fair to play as or against.

As support I'm basically forced to rush it if I want to win.

As ADC you NEED to play something who can abuse the on hit part of Ardent so Trist, Twitch and Kog reign supreme

Playing against it you feel cheated because you can't outplay ridiculous amounts of AS coupled with LIFE DRAIN on hit.

Honestly, this is old feral flare levels of anti-fun and shouldn't be in the game.

So I ask you, Riot, do you feel Ardent has a place in this game in its current form or should I be given the DFG treatment?

62 Comments

Drugoth11 votes

I love how the Ardent Censer went for a looooong time without anyone complaining, and suddenly because ADCs are too strong it's the supports fault xD

War shrike 975 votes

exactly this. The items shows how strong ADC are because they get busted from just +25% as

Skorch1 votes

IMO the onhit is more of a problem. No clue why they added. Didnt actually realize they added it till all the talk about it start. Im a support main btw.

Enraged Piglet1 votes

it was 35% attack speed before nerf, then a lot of onhit damage and then about as much lifesteal as BT if you consider the fact that the lifesteal procs on runaan bolts. Then you gotta add that Lulu and janna and the like already buff adc's and then you realize that janna with ardent is litterally like giving a BT and wit's end to an adc at the 15 min mark.

Malicious Metal15 votes

It got buffed several patches before becoming this overbearing.

King of Demons1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dvY7sf3l,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-09-08T15:50:20.697+0000)

It got buffed several patches before becoming this overbearing.

Not even true. It got originally buffed once, then every other item got nerfed 3 patches in a row.

KoKoboto1 votes

Because for a long time it wasn't good. Look at the patch history of the item. Look at when they introduced the life drain mechanic. That's when the item became ridiculous.

Breaku1 votes

Lol, the life drain was added in Nov 2016.

Nobody really built it until the Redemption nerf in June.

KoKoboto1 votes

Yep, since patch 6.22 in November 2016 the item has been busted.

Enraged Piglet1 votes

people forget that ardent was already strong when aegis and remption were op. Just people didn't realize how strong it was sense the effects are a bit hard to notice if your not actively looking for it. Then Riot nerfed redemption and aegis so now ardent is the sole item. In fact even then it still took people a long ass time to notice how strong ardent was. I remember even watching challenger streams and people didn't realize how strong it was.

and I remember when my team would want to FF and then I'd be like but I just got my ardent then they would ? me and then we would win.

Teridax6810 votes

I think the problem with Ardent Censer is the same fundamental problem as with Mikael's Crucible, Knight's Vow, Sightstone and older support items, in that it reduces the support to functioning as a bonus inventory for their allies, especially the marksman. It doesn't really feel great for the support personally, because they get no benefit from it, and out of all the support items it's one of the least interactive ones as well, as it just adds bonuses to heals and shields, yet it is still worth purchasing, even mandatory at this point, simply because it gives a bunch of stats marksmen synergize particularly well with. On a caster, being incentivized to autoattack could be a novel point of gameplay introduced by this effect, but on autoattackers, particularly marksmen, this item does not alter their gameplay in any respect, and simply makes them even stronger at what they do already. Effectively, as long as Ardent Censer exists and is strong enough to be bought, it will remain mandatory and not very healthy to the game, as it forces the support to purchase an early- to mid-game power spike to their marksman.

Because of this, I think it might help to rework or remove the item, but on top of that, support items need to definitively stop imitating items from other classes. As controversial as items like Locket and Redemption are, at least they give supports an active that can truly benefit their entire team, including themselves, and that works by actually having an impact of its own, instead of just giving bonus stats or some effect other classes can get through their own itemization (e.g. Mikael's Crucible and Mercurial Scimitar/QSS, or Sightstone versus trinkets). Right now, we're also at a severe loss for items that truly focus on enhancing the utility already present on support kits, beyond simply buffing their heals and shields, so if support itemization needs more passive effects, they should focus on making the unique utility of each support more valuable, instead of making the class all blend into a set of hollow shells for the same selection of actives and bonus stats.

What could also help in the game's current environment is support items that benefit members of other classes equally well, or better yet, which work distinctly better on non-marksmen. Right now, enchanters as a subclass are already very much built around marksmen, whether it be due to their focus on back line peel and protection, or just the marksman-specific bonus stats they give on some of their abilities. This kind of design, along with a steady influx of support itemization changes that have made them even more synergistic with marksmen, is a major reason why bot lane has remained so stagnant for so long, as any non-marksman trying to break in as an alternative carry role operates from a stark disadvantage. Giving supports access to items that specifically benefit assassins, mages, fighters, tanks, or other supports, without benefiting the marksman too much, could at least throw more opportunities out there for non-standard bot lane comps to succeed, even if it takes them much more time to become meta.

Blåbæret7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dvY7sf3l,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-08T14:48:08.515+0000)

It just promotes a very cancerous play pattern and doesn't feel fair to play as or against.

As support I'm basically forced to rush it if I want to win.

As ADC you NEED to play something who can abuse the on hit part of Ardent so Trist, Twitch and Kog reign supreme

Playing against it you feel cheated because you can't outplay ridiculous amounts of AS coupled with LIFE DRAIN on hit.

Honestly, this is old feral flare levels of anti-fun and shouldn't be in the game.

So I ask you, Riot, do you feel Ardent has a place in this game in its current form or should I be given the DFG treatment?

Stop crying. The problem isn't Ardent (no one even built it a month ago, then suddenly someone at LCS builds it and now it's OP lmao).

No, the problem in general is support items being made with only ADCs in mind. There's no support item to give juggernauts tenacity, there's no support item to give assassins an extra window of opportunity etc. All these items are aimed at making ADCs stronger while not benefitting anyone else.

By crying about Ardent you're really missing the bigger picture here. ADCs are too strong, and the support role has been MADE to make them even stronger. What needs to be done is a fundamental redesign of the entire support class and items. Supports should be able to provide TEAM support - not be butt buddies with ADCs. Ardent isn't some isolated issue here.

And yeah, ADCs need to be nerfed until they're no longer mandatory.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Why should a support buy an item to help a class they're often nowhere near? They spend most of lane phase botlane, and then when team phase starts, they're still often right next to the ADC. They sure as fuck won't be right next to the assassin.

Blåbæret6 votes

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM: WHY ARE SUPPORTS ADC BUTT BUDDIES?

Lmao, look at the bigger picture here dude. You're so sucked up in the marksmen meta you can't even imagine for one second a marksman not being in the game.

Martyrofsand3 votes

{quoted}

Stop crying. The problem isn't Ardent (no one even built it a month ago, then suddenly someone at LCS builds it and now it's OP lmao).

No, the problem in general is support items being made with only ADCs in mind. There's no support item to give juggernauts tenacity, there's no support item to give assassins an extra window of opportunity etc. All these items are aimed at making ADCs stronger while not benefitting anyone else.

By crying about Ardent you're really missing the bigger picture here. ADCs are too strong, and the support role has been MADE to make them even stronger. What needs to be done is a fundamental redesign of the entire support class and items. Supports should be able to provide TEAM support - not be butt buddies with ADCs. Ardent isn't some isolated issue here.

And yeah, ADCs need to be nerfed until they're no longer mandatory.

1--Supports can free Juggernauts with item 3222 , they can also speed juggernauts into the fight with item 3069

2--Supports give assassins windows via their CC chains and set ups. Kha can safely jump into the back line to blow up the adc because Rakan landed his R+W on everyone who might peel him for example. And again item 3222 gets Kha out of CC to let him do what he needs to do.

3--Redemption is a team wide heal and damage ability, and frankly I've used it plenty to keep a frontline alive, or timed it with the assassin diving the back line so they get healed and kept alive long enough to get the kill and get out.

4--The only support items that pretty much read "use on ADC" are item 3504 item 3050 and you could possibly argue item 3109 although I've had games I threw it on the mid laner with great effect, especially if it's a cassio.

None of the items really say or do anything that screams "only the ADC benefits from this" and can be used for the team.

DemainaNyx1 votes

And, to be fair, anyone who autos benefits from Ardent. I've thrown an Ardent shield on a midlaner so they can heal up by autoing the minion wave and obviously people like Jax, Yi, Trynd, etc all benefit from it as well.

Martyrofsand1 votes

Fair enough, just been so long since I saw any of them I kinda forgot about then :p

Salson4 votes

Well not DFG treatment, just rework it.

I'd like something more selfish: -Healing alies gives you Ardent Stacks. -On 100 Ardent Stacks you get an active. -Active can heal you for 100-400 hp or damage an enemy for 75-300 hp (magic damage).

War shrike 975 votes

so a bit similar to athenes. honestly though supports have enough active.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

God beware supports have to do more than spam E or W off cooldown.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

And manage 4 different actives at once...

Enraged Piglet1 votes

I've had games with 5 actives before in the past...

Dominick Destine4 votes

Not the DFG treatment, more like the Zeke's Herald/Stark's Fervor treatment.

"Rework" (Code for gut irreparably).

Fairyfleur4 votes

If you don't want it in the game, rework it, I Iove my mana regen AP on Sona.

item 3174 item 3504 item 3107 item 3222

[cass-cry]

Dengeden4 votes

This was so tilting to read. Supports weren't "forced to rush it" for the longest time. Once it's tuned down, it will be back to its "what does this item do again?" state.

And as I can only reiterate, DFG was removed because it allowed burst mages to kill you with something besides their full combo. I.e. it lead to an unintended playstyle. Not so with Censer and supports.

SweedishGunner3 votes

Funny because it's been around for a while but only started becoming an issue once the meta became more ADC centric.

It does need changes if ADC's are to remain as is however.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Funny because it's been around for a while but only started becoming an issue once the meta became more ADC centric.

Actually it got several back-to-back buffs... but you are partially correct.

undesirable team2 votes

they gotta rework it into something more interesting, like maybe an active that gives adc atkspd/dmg shield with a high cooldown

Winterwings34 votes

Why? Enchaters already have the issue of feeling like "Playing the Items, and not the Champion" ...

I'd honestly settle for a passive with a bit more "Skill-expression" (Rito's FOTM word of recent)

War shrike 976 votes

totally agree. sometimes i get redemption, locket, and mikaels... like there are more than enough support actives and there is definitely no shortage of them. i would just remove the bleed damage from the ardent passive. Especially since it doesnt fit with the idea of healing... the idea of healing your team mates increasing their AS makes sense since it gives them some vigour and rejuvenate them but healing your team mates causing them to deal bleed damage doesnt make sense honestly.

Winterwings4 votes

Technically speaking, the "bleed" damage is just on hit magic damage (Bleed implies its DoT which it isnt...)

But other than that, i agree... I would be totally fine with the damage part of it gone

Kaeblen3 votes

Enchaters already have the issue of feeling like "Playing the Items, and not the Champion" ...

Totally true

When i play Janna I have 5 active items.

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=JlHADlST DRAVEN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dvY7sf3l,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-08T14:52:51.224+0000)

they gotta rework it into something more interesting, like maybe an active that gives adc atkspd/dmg shield with a high cooldown

Yes more shields item 3105

Penns2 votes

people even complain about ardent when stuff like https://youtu.be/X_PrTeleo_A?t=8m34s happens even tho its just supports being opieop so.. idk lul

hhaavviikk2 votes

I feel like it's mostly the health drain that's the problem, it allows ADC's to skip lifesteal items

AirKingNeo2 votes

Playing against it you feel cheated because you can't outplay ridiculous amounts of AS coupled with LIFE DRAIN on hit.

I'm not sure how that warrants needing to remove the item. It sounds like you can just nerf it. Explain your argument.

Clementine1 votes

A simple "fix" imo is just removing the attack speed buff and putting +5-10 or so life-drain. This way the item benefits all ADCs equally and doesn't make KogMaw more busted and do almost nothing for Jhin. The life-drain isn't the problem, it's the attack speed with the life-drain.

DemainaNyx1 votes

Bonus Attack Speed on Jhin means more AD. It's far from useless on Jhin, but obviously not a great item for him.

It will always be better on people who have higher attack speed simply because it's on hit. If with your change if someone hits 2 times to my 4 times, that means you only get 10-20 bonus vs my 20-40. I think that would make it even stronger on Kog/Twitch and worse on Jhin.

If you changed it to do lifesteal or a percent damage heal, that would balance it across ADCs, because Jhin would get big heals per auto, while Kog gets little heals per auto.

BoilTheOil1 votes

At least feral flare required farming

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Back then they complained junglers were too stong once they finished an item, now its they gank to much.... Laners are never happy.

Ahris1 votes

I had a game where enemy surrendered because their support didnt build Ardent Censor(they had Lucian mid and some other adc)

wyvern0119761 votes

Adcs are not overpowered right now. They are the weakest they have ever been. Its a tank meta! Items like Arden actually make them relevant again. Looks like a bunch of Mid, Tops, and jungles complaining they actually have to respect the DPS of an ADC. Check the stats.....APCs deal the most damage to champions in the vast majority of games not the ADC. The Adc is designed into the game to make sure that games don't last 90 minutes and that the risk/reward of objective control/team fights late game have meaning. They have to deal consistent damage and they have to be a threat or there is not need for them in a team composition. Rather or not Ardent is issue is one thing, but ADCs are not OP at the moment. They are finally relevant throughout the game again. That's not OP that's expected of all positions.

MorgManBasher1 votes

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wyvern0119761 votes

Lot of salty kids that want to argue with actual statistics. They are op only if "YOU" are garbage. They do a good job dealing out consistent DPS but they are the weakest they have ever been since the last major group nerf. Ardent censor and a few other items are the only thing keeping them relevant at all. As an example until ardent censor came into fashion Ziggs was played more often bot than any other champ at a competitive level for almost 9 months. So if you are getting wrecked by ADCs might be time to change your play style.

Jew Stomper1 votes

You "FEEL" it should be removed, I THINK it should stay.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Lifesteal is something marksmen have been abusing for years, zeke's has been reworked repeatedly because it gave them more; just remove it from censer and it'll be forgotten again.

MorgManBasher1 votes

As a support main, please fix this item so I can play an aggressive support and not have a snore fest bot lane.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

sees a quality thread hovers over upvote button realizes that it's a thread by MM hesistates upvotes anyways

On a serious note Ardent should be at least reverted back to pre-season 6 version, when it wasn't overloaded with stats because bad players were complaining that it wasn't "strong enough", when in reality it just filled a specific niche.

There isn't a problem with making that THE enchanters' tool, but it becomes one when it's overloaded with stats to the point it becomes THE mandatory buy.

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