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Nocturne Q suggestion: Making him the "inescapeable nightmare".

ModCaptainMårvelous··35 votes·2,908 views

Nocturne, at the moment, is in kinda a meh spot. His ult reversion has helped him but he still lacks the escape a lot of other assassins have. One of the most commonly suggested changes is to make Nocturne's Q allow him to pass over walls. Which, IMO, might break him a bit and make him incredibly easy to move around the map as. (Think bard tunnel but made of nightmares). With that in mind, I came up with an interesting idea that might make Nocturne a little more strong when chasing or escaping while playing into his theme of the nightmare incarnate.

Current Q:

1200 Range, 60/65/70/75/80 Mana, 10 second CD. Active: Nocturne sends out a shadow blade in a line that leaves a Dusk Trail on its path, dealing physical damage to enemies it passes through and causing enemy champions hit to also leave a Dusk Trail behind their movements for 5 seconds.While on the Dusk Trail, Nocturne ignores unit collision and gains bonus movement speed and attack damage.

New Q:

Dusk Trail/Unending Nightmare 1000/1100/1200/1300/1400 Range, 60/65/70/75/80 Mana, 15/13.5/11/9.5/7 second CD. Active: Nocturne sends out a shadow blade in a line that leaves a Dusk Trail on its path, dealing physical damage to enemies it passes through and causing enemy champions hit to also leave a Dusk Trail behind their movements for 5 seconds.While on the Dusk Trail, Nocturne ignores unit collision and gains bonus movement speed and attack damage. After using Dusk Trail, Nocturne may use Q again to instantly teleport to anywhere on his dusk trail. He has 1/2/3/4/5 seconds after casting to use this before going on CD.

(Note: This would make his CD somewhere around 16/15.5/14/13.5/12 seconds)

So what would this mean? Well, here's a (poorly made) visual guide.

#1.) Nocturne tags Jinx with his Q, making her leave a trail. http://i.imgur.com/iywnss8.png

#2.) Jinx, in panic, flashes over a wall and continues to leave a trail. http://i.imgur.com/w6Z7Qk6.png

#3.) Nocturne uses Unending Nightmare to teleport to the dusk trail Jinx leaves behind, allowing him to continue the chase. http://i.imgur.com/QCOLSxQ.png

Here's some additional things:

  • This ability will be quite telegraphed, as Noc can appear anywhere on the ink trail.
  • Cooldown, Damage and buff adjustments will likely be needed.
  • Nocturne will NOT have vision beyond seeing the trail. It will be entirely possible to bait him to porting into 5 people on your team.
  • Cast time I'm unsure of. Travel time I'd imagine is instant.

At the end of the day, this change would...

  • Reinforce Nocturne's identity as a "Nightmare that is always creeping behind you", making you afraid of your own shadow.
  • Giving nocturne pre-6 chase and escape potential, albeit highly telegraphed and nowhere near as good as other assassins.
  • Let nocturne do some cool things with his jungle path.
  • Make teams stick together with the ink trail, which is exactly the thematic response people should have to noc ("Stay close, Noc wants us to go off alone")

56 Comments

Haunt16 votes

Sounds interesting. It would give Nocturne more strategy rather than just "R onto carry, q and e the carry, try to shield something and auto attack"

Seems like a more assassin style which he was originally intended to be until they realized he just ults into the enemy team and gets destroyed by everyone.

Rockman13 votes

Since I'll be serious Nocturne doesn't need another gapcloser

Haunt7 votes

{quoted}

Since I'll be serious Nocturne doesn't need another gapcloser

His one gap closer is his ultimate which put's him into their ENTIRE team.

Norr1N3 votes

With a spellshield and hard-CC whilst obscuring everyones vision in which time full-ad Noc can 100-0 a squish. Not good enough, need ezpz pre-6 ganks? xp You do realise that assassins aren't meant to dive headlong into teams and expect to get a free kill and make it out untouched too, right? Those that do, give up alot for damage or resets (Kat, Kha), whilst rest get utility like Noc/Rengar/etc.

Haunt10 votes

{quoted}

With a spellshield and hard-CC whilst obscuring everyones vision in which time full-ad Noc can 100-0 a squish. Not good enough, need ezpz pre-6 ganks? xp You do realise that assassins aren't meant to dive headlong into teams and expect to get a free kill and make it out untouched too, right? Those that do, give up alot for damage or resets (Kat, Kha), whilst rest get utility like Noc/Rengar/etc.

The spellshield blocks ONE of the many abilities going to be thrown at you for peel, and only gives you more attack speed (Which you should already have plenty of)

I never said he was initiating. Every assassin plays the same way, you have to wait for some CC to be used, and go in at an opportune moment. Once Nocturne goes in, he goes IN. He DOESN'T come out. That's why he has to build like a massive bitch and go bruiser/tank, instead of his intended assassin role when he was designed.

Let's go through some assassins with CC that makes it hard to run from them.

Ekko has a slow and a 2.25 second stun Ahri has a 2 second charm Rengar Roots you in place from stealth Diana has her e to slow you while she spams jumps on you Talon has a decent cone slow as well as a 99% slow for .25 seconds if you wanna count it Fizz ult makes adc almost immobile LB has a 2 second root

Do we need more? Oh btw, ALL of those champions have one (or multiple) gap closers to get the job done, and ALL of them have means of escaping aside form Diana, who is able to tank it out half the time with her bruiser build + Zhonyas, so don't tell me an assassin with inescapable CC isn't able to have means of catching up to them. His target also has to stay in the range of it, or you can say goodbye to your "easy hard cc."

Akali is SO HOT6 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkodTydUR0E

Baron of Bread8 votes

I think it would be pretty cool, but he should only be able to reactivate if it hit an enemy champion. He is a recurring nightmare, not a pansy.

50000000000000001 votes

This was my concern as well. He can use this as an escape too easily.

Icestar11862 votes

Interesting idea. I'm not entirely sure it's something Riot would do, but it would be cool to see this mechanic somewhere.

Rockman2 votes

Zed .5

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Similar but not quite.

Zed leaves a clone that mimics abilities as well as granting vision. Noc has to tag someone for them to leave a persistent trail, along with not having vision and being able to port to anywhere on his trail.

Similar, perhaps, but worlds part in actual application.

Cynicatt2 votes

I like it! Seems good, easily balanceable.

aaronautumn2 votes

then it would fill the same role as his ult.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

His ult is a targeted, almost map-wide dash telegraphed by the entire map going black. This would give him some mobility outside of "going a lil' faster on the inkblot" as well as make for more interesting and dynamic plays by Noc.

BeatRushVII2 votes

The teleport would be a little strong, i think just drawing from spectre and letting him pass through terrain for the first half of the duration would be better

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

The teleport would be a little strong, i think just drawing from spectre and letting him pass through terrain for the first half of the duration would be better

this, let him do it for few seconds so he doesn't go unmanageable

alfavhunter2 votes

Simple adjustments to make this viable

His spell shield no longer gives AS

he trades conditional damage bonus for mobility

This damage bonus didn't help him jungle, so it's fine to lose it

Also changed if he uses the Q reactivate the shadow trail vanishes, and with that he loses his MS and AD bonus

It has trade offs to use it for mobility

Damage

But he gets more chase

Also, he can only reactivate Q if he hits an enemy champion with it

Norr1N1 votes

More mobility for champions who already have plenty. Reminds me of what Rito did with Ahri, so I wouldn't put it past them >>. Mordekaiser

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Except Nocturne, as an assassin, is supposed to be the type of character to dive into a fight, killing and/or disrupting a team, then getting out as quickly as possible. And compared to any other assassin, his "mobility" is laughable. A single, ultimate gap-closer and a speed boost on his Q. That's -nothing-.

Ahri got mobility tacked onto poke. This would be giving Nocturne mobility for the sake of chasing. Asides, a limited blink versus "Free homeguards for hitting a button". Hardly the same.

Rockman4 votes

{quoted}

**And compared to any other assassin, his "mobility" is laughable. A single, ultimate gap-closer and a speed boost on his Q. That's -nothing-. **

For a good reason

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/f/f8/Unspeakable_Horror.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123130

Norr1N2 votes

Beat me to it.

Edit: Targeted point-n-click CC, vision obstruction, spellshield, movement speed boost thrown ontop of the damage you'd deal after ulting your way right on top of them.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Rengar Root/Slow Talon Slow Shaco Jack in the boxes (Which have almost the same amount of set-up)

Having CC on assassins is nothing new. Asides, even WITH these changes he would still have to remain in tether range. If he's close enough to tether and then port to an ink puddle, that's wasting what could be your escape.

Rockman3 votes

{quoted}

Rengar Root/Slow Talon Slow Shaco Jack in the boxes (Which have almost the same amount of set-up)

Having CC on assassins is nothing new. Asides, even WITH these changes he would still have to remain in tether range. If he's close enough to tether and then port to an ink puddle, that's wasting what could be your escape.

You should understand you can't compare point and click hard CC to skillshots

The Mighty Flea3 votes

{quoted}

You should understand you can't compare point and click hard CC to skillshots

You should still understand that you have to stand inside the tether range for 2 seconds... Anyone can flash, ult, speed up, even run out of his tether range. Plus, with the fear changes, they run away from you instead of everywhere.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Taking a look at his winrate/average games played I don't think he is in a bad spot. He has one of the least experienced playerbases and still has a 51% winrate. No reason to buff anything tbh.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

This may be true, but look at the top 10 items Noc currently uses.

1.) item 3153 2.) item 3143 3.) item 3142 4.) item 3102 5.) item 3707 6.) item 1324 7.) item 1011 8.) item 3742 9.) item 3071 10.) item 1329

Doesn't it seem kinda odd that an assassin is usually building bruiser items? Hell, one of his most built items is a giant's belt. When have you ever seen Zed, Talon, Shaco or another assassin pick up a giant's belt who wasn't building a rylais? It's less about "Buffing Noc for the sake of buffing Noc" and more so giving him chase/escape potential so that he can afford to build more damage items and actually be more of an assassin.

I'd imagine he'd need some number changes too. Lower base damages, higher ratios.

The Mighty Flea1 votes

{quoted}

This may be true, but look at the top 10 items Noc currently uses.

1.) item 3153 2.) item 3143 3.) item 3142 4.) item 3102 5.) item 3707 6.) item 1324 7.) item 1011 8.) item 3742 9.) item 3071 10.) item 1329

Doesn't it seem kinda odd that an assassin is usually building bruiser items? Hell, one of his most built items is a giant's belt. When have you ever seen Zed, Talon, Shaco or another assassin pick up a giant's belt who wasn't building a rylais? It's less about "Buffing Noc for the sake of buffing Noc" and more so giving him chase/escape potential so that he can afford to build more damage items and actually be more of an assassin.

I'd imagine he'd need some number changes too. Lower base damages, higher ratios.

Nocturne has to build these items. Full damage noc is super fun! But ulting into their team with anything lower than 2.5k health and some resistance is an instant death sentence. Hell, most of the time you can even stay alive long enough to get your fear off. Noc HAS to buy tanky items (even if he is an assassin,) because he would be useless with his ult. Noc needs a buff. He got a small buff and is in a pretty good spot, but this little buff would really give him that "nightmare" "im unstoppable and coming for you" theme which he could use so well.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

But that's just my point. Why does Noc have to build these items? A: One gapcloser (I don't consider "running at someone" a gapcloser) and no escape. Zed, Talon, etc can afford to build damage and little-to-no defense because they have escape and disruption tools. Noc, however, is forced into a bruiser/fighter playstyle because his kit doesn't afford him escape.

All I want is for Nocturne to fight his theme better. Being a fat, beefy fighting nightmare inkblot doesn't make sense thematically.

The Mighty Flea1 votes

{quoted}

But that's just my point. Why does Noc have to build these items? A: One gapcloser (I don't consider "running at someone" a gapcloser) and no escape. Zed, Talon, etc can afford to build damage and little-to-no defense because they have escape and disruption tools. Noc, however, is forced into a bruiser/fighter playstyle because his kit doesn't afford him escape.

All I want is for Nocturne to fight his theme better. Being a fat, beefy fighting nightmare inkblot doesn't make sense thematically.

agree with you entirely.

BeatRushVII1 votes

{quoted}

This may be true, but look at the top 10 items Noc currently uses.

1.) item 3153 2.) item 3143 3.) item 3142 4.) item 3102 5.) item 3707 6.) item 1324 7.) item 1011 8.) item 3742 9.) item 3071 10.) item 1329

Doesn't it seem kinda odd that an assassin is usually building bruiser items? Hell, one of his most built items is a giant's belt. When have you ever seen Zed, Talon, Shaco or another assassin pick up a giant's belt who wasn't building a rylais? It's less about "Buffing Noc for the sake of buffing Noc" and more so giving him chase/escape potential so that he can afford to build more damage items and actually be more of an assassin.

I'd imagine he'd need some number changes too. Lower base damages, higher ratios.

Nocture has never really been an assasin. If you build him full damage and ult into anything more than two people, you get burst to shit. He has ALWAYS been better with one or two damage items, and then tanky stuff.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

And you don't think that's counter-intuitive to his theme?

DoFr1 votes

this looks a bit like an improved version of leesin's Q, minus the stupid damage on lee's, thought i like this one better due to the mere fact that noc doesn't have any mobility access. aside from his ult, and if anyone flashed at the exact hit point you would've wasted your ult AAAAND ganking the ilk to leblancs and Zeds are rather useless.

all on all, sounds like a GREAT idea to get noc on Track, but i sure hope Riot does this, and actually do it.

it's because of his lack of Mobility Access, i have to build Juggernaut items to survive.

i can never have that Assassin Feel as noc.

MalzaharAnyLane1 votes

Too many other things need to be addressed before Nocturne gets any changes right now, namely a few reworks need to be reverted and some macro-level game mechanics need changing.

Nocturne should get changes after pre-season next year.

Desiderium1 votes

I LOVE it.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Didn't you say didn't want a mobility spell like Bard has?

Let's say you give him this buff,what would you nerf to compensate?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Like I said, I'm poor at numbers.

For one thing, his Q would likely need a CD increase. On top of that I imagine the CD wouldn't start until Unending nightmare's timer ends. So at a 15 second CD, it's CD would actually go up per level (Because Nightmare would last 1/2/3/4/5 seconds) to 16/17/18/19/20. With some CDR this will be far less but it's still kinda meaty.

On top of that, I'd imagine he'd need some of the MS removed from his trail, as he now has a better chasing tool than "Going fast on the ink blot". This would also have the side-effect of making his fear a little weaker because it's harder to stay close.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

why don't you make his Q so he can go through walls?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I wanted to try something outside of simply adding the obvious. That and I think that would make his ganking/jungle prowess WAAAAAAAAAAAY too strong.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Q throgh wall, Unending Nightmare behind it, congrats you just moved through that wall... your idea adds going through walls as well and even more, it would take to much powerbudge from him, and i don't think such a blink would fit to his 'feel'...

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Except a blink is far, FAR different from simply walking over a wall. More so, it doesn't let you simply walk through a wall, make the enemy flash...and then walk backwards. If anything, this is far less powerful than just walking through the wall freely.

Also, how does a "appearing from the darkness" not fit the theme of a living entity of nightmare and darkness? As for power budget...eh, it's possible. I'd imagine if you take away the MS boost on the trail and maybe tweak the CD/Ratio/etc, it'd be solid.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i didn't say 'theme', i said 'feel' It doesn't fit to well with his current gameplay, He's about sticking to the the target and shred it down with AAs, not Zed like supprise butsex. He enters the fight right in the face off a choosen target, after that he relys on ms and the spellshield to stick on it till the fear procs, that allows counterplay. With and aditionaly blink, you either take away to much sticking power(the ms) for his dps heavy kit, or to much damage, makeing him pretty snowball reliant, or no compensation nerfs and he's out right broken. The appearing from darkness already is in his ult, all he needs to do is actually being scary after appearing, rather than beeing less scary but appearing a second time.

I think Noc is prefectly fine in his mechanics anf core gameplay, all he needs is either more survivabillity lategame, so he can afford more agressive builts, or better lategame base damage, so he has more impact while going tanky.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Except a blink is far, FAR different from simply walking over a wall. More so, it doesn't let you simply walk through a wall, make the enemy flash...and then walk backwards. If anything, this is far less powerful than just walking through the wall freely.

Also, how does a "appearing from the darkness" not fit the theme of a living entity of nightmare and darkness? As for power budget...eh, it's possible. I'd imagine if you take away the MS boost on the trail and maybe tweak the CD/Ratio/etc, it'd be solid.

make the buff last 1 seconds so you can't make the enemy flash and walk backwards???????????????????????????????????????

SavingPirateRyan1 votes

My big concern would be that this and his spellshield would be overkill.

Silents4291 votes

I don't think we need to do much more for him other then give him a new W

Honestly a spell shield and some attack speed isn't glamorous and doesn't make sense thematically for him, so we replace that, we have an entirely new ability to bring him into a unique place.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I think a spell-shield works fine but give him a reward that fits him and/or his assassin playstyle, such as:

  • Spellblock gives Invis.
  • Spellblock allows him to instantly strike/deal damage to whoever the spell was from.
  • Spellblock lowers his other cooldowns.

etc.

BurningRice1 votes

I like the idea but yeah it does kinda seem op. I myself am a noc main and I feel like he is in a good spot right now

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

He's fine now, but he's fine as a bruiser rather than an assassin, which I feel really doesn't fit his core theme. You can check a post somewhere here where I pointed out his top 10 items. 6/10 of those were tank/bruiser items

CoolKnightST1 votes

Their are simpler solution to tweak him. Like what is mentioned in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=qKs78yIGEh8

Passionlip1 votes

... ... Well, that's actually interesting, here's an upvote and a cookie item 2009

Ultîma1 votes

I like that idea quite a bit! Nocturne needs a bit of love in his kit thematically as well as mechanically.

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