Now that the next class update is tanks...

Melledoneus··79 votes·6,515 views

This is a very good time to fix some mistakes and make some good judgment calls on potential changes that have not been outright announced.

Sejuani EDIT: Personally I find Sej's W feeling unimpactful. But Sej mains have a right to say what she could get from this update, since they pointed out to me I'm focusing on the wrong things. I want to know what you Sej mains think she could use, assuming she will get changes.

Sion Do not mess him up like you did Vel. He's fine, he could just use some minor number tweaks depending on what the rest of the cast has.

Shen Even though I am heavily biased, we can all agree Shen needs another change, despite being a Warden. He isn't fulfilling his fantasy in a healthy way and his tools are so overpowered in the right hands that they are forced to have atrociously low impact except in a perfect world. And for fuck's sake his E is still buggy and is stupidly narrow for the huge cost of just casting the damn thing. Not to mention the timing of his abilities do not match each other. Could use some outright tweaks, but outright number buffs might be dangerous.

item 3025 Rework or remove this item. Hardly any tanks build it and Ezreal has become the most annoying piece of shit using it.

item 3022 Re-emphasize this item's defensive nature and repurpose it as an item for tanks/bruisers who rely on autos and get kited. I'm sick of people like Yasuo building this and becoming an uninteractive mess of tanky, lifestealing destruction.

item 3143 Further explore items like Randuin's and make ways to negate crit in more items without making it too stat-checky.

item 3075 This item is only good against and on a few champions early and heavily falls off. Thornmail needs to become impactful.

item 3068 is too impactful as a first purchase on most tanks. It's crowding out most itemization, may need to be looked at.

item 1054 Buff this item or rework it. It sucks, it doesn't feel impactful, and is better on some tanks than others, yet is built by none of them. Doran's shield sucks and is a bigger waste of gold than building Rabadon's Deathcap on Darius.

item 3056 A long shot, could do something with this item somehow. Turrets are kind of obsolete right now.

We also need more CDR options, more magic resist options, and possibly more defense against %HP damage. The only way for tanks to be impactful right now is their burst damage. After the update (if Riot does it right) we'll see more wet noodle fights, less tank deletion (going both ways), a better laning phase for tanks, and in general more survivability in this FPS meta where you run in, die instantly, and wait to respawn while being rude to your teammates.

Oh, and a tank item that inflicts grievous wounds would be nice. Maybe something with an active.

229 Comments

Sahn Uzal61 votes

Sion Do not mess him up like you did Vel. He's fine, he could just use some minor number tweaks depending on what the rest of the cast has.

I am repeating this to make sure Riot gets the memo on this one. Do not fuck Sion up.

Keevalroy22 votes

Incoming Statikk post:

Vel'Koz Sion is a great champion, but he honestly lacks Distinctness. He has some hints here and there of uniqueness (Q targeting knockup, true damage slow from Deconstruct Roar of the Slayer, etc.) but none of them are pushed to a point where it truly differentiates him.

Don't worry, even within the 6 (number of updated tanks,) the amount of change each champion will see is pretty drastically different.

Fawksea3 votes

hopefully they'll just make his passive immune to CC so it's not completely useless after laning phase

Lestat S461 votes

Get Rightous Glory and use the active after Death

Fawksea3 votes

ye you would be dying a lot by buying that on him so good point! :)

AhmCha4 votes

Does he even need anything changed? He's completely fine, and I would say a fantastically balanced champion. I'm with you, please don't fix what isn't broken.

BluePolarizer14 votes

Sion is now a duo lane ADC. Mordekaiser

SlashStriker19 votes

Sejuani needs her identity looked at or she'll never be healthy in a tank meta.

This explains absolutely nothing. Doesn't mention whats exactly wrong with her or how is she suppose to be.

I personally don't see any problems with her. He ganks are decent, She scales well with tank items and the damage part is also decent

Who the hell came up with "Healthy" phrase? Can't you guys be more specific on what you are trying to say? I mean Sion is a zombie. How can he be "healthy"?

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

Sejuani is basically an amumu /malphite duplicate. It's a lot like the graves lucian scenario a few seasons ago where there is no real reason to pick one champion over the other besides who is stronger.

LankPants7 votes

Sejuani is basically an amumu /malphite duplicate.

Sejuani is as much like Malphite as any tank, but she's not a duplicate at all.

On the Amumu front I'd say Sejuani's by far the better of the two. Amumu's super linear, you Q in, you ult, you E and you activate W, there's not really any thought in it or alternate ways to execute, there's merely the player playing Amumu's execution. Sejuani can use her Q to enter from different angles, her ult is a more interesting ability because of this and she can Q flash leading to her having more options than just 'hit a bandage'.

SpongebobIsLife3 votes

what i meant by that is that the only thing they are good for or known for, is their ult.

LankPants6 votes

If you actually think that you don't know very much about Sejuani/Amumu/Malphite or tanks in general really. Given how rarely you play tanks I'm really not surprised.

Malphite actually brings a lot of control outside of his ult, he has a spamable slow/speed boost which allows him to stick to his targets and apply his spamable AS slow which shuts out ADC damage almost entirely. It's not traditional control in the same way as someone like Naut or Alistar but it's still a very strong method of team wide damage mitigation.

Sejuani and Amumu are similar because of what they bring outside of their ult. Their abilities do fairly similar things, W for damage, Q for movement and lockdown. Their Es are somewhat different and it's what generally makes Sejuani a better champion, she just does an extra thing that Amumu can't without items.

If you think Sejuani's W and Q aren't powerful abilities you're out of you're mind, E isn't the worst thing ever either. I actually think W is close to Sejuani's ult in terms of power level, I've seen it tick for 1000 damage before. That's a hell of a lot for a basic ability.

Melledoneus3 votes

So much power is front-loaded into her ultimate. Her Q is a good ability, but her W has the potential to get out of hand again if tanks actually start getting tankier come the update.

LankPants9 votes

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but Sej's W is probably the ability most core to her identity. If you wanted to "look at her identity" you're almost certainly going to wind up with a kit that centralises more around her W, not less.

Melledoneus2 votes

How do you not see her becoming what she was during the Cinderhulk meta if tanks get tankier? It's literally going to happen unless they change her for the better.

And they are, whether you like it or not, since she counts as a Vanguard.

LankPants7 votes

How do you not see her becoming what she was during the Cinderhulk meta if tanks get tankier? It's literally going to happen unless they change her for the better.

What you need to understand about Cinderhulk Sej is that it was an extreme circumstance. Sejuani was a pretty strong champion before Cinder, she was beginning to see increased play and was even a fringe jungler in competitive. She was a very good champ before Cinderhulk. It was very obvious that Cinderhulk was going to be a huge benifit to her.

Could this happen again now? Almost definitely no. Sejuani is currently very bad champion. Even with changes to her itemisation she'd struggle to get out of line. Even if you purposefully overbuffed her items to make her out of line you'd pull up other champs like Amumu, Gragas and Rammus with her.

5.5 Sejuani could only exist because of the circumstances at the time, these no longer exist so there's really no indirect change you could make to pull her back up to this level.

And they are, whether you like it or not, since she counts as a Vanguard.

She's a Vanguard, sure but are we really going to make all Vanguards the same, should that be the goal? Riot in their reworks haven't said "what makes this champion and Assassin/Mage/ADC" they've said "what makes them different from others in their role". For Sejuani the simple answer to that question is her W.

Melledoneus2 votes

{quoted}

What you need to understand about Cinderhulk Sej is that it was an extreme circumstance. Sejuani was a pretty strong champion before Cinder, she was beginning to see increased play and was even a fringe jungler in competitive. She was a very good champ before Cinderhulk. It was very obvious that Cinderhulk was going to be a huge benifit to her.

Could this happen again now? Almost definitely no. Sejuani is currently very bad champion. Even with changes to her itemisation she'd struggle to get out of line. Even if you purposefully overbuffed her items to make her out of line you'd pull up other champs like Amumu, Gragas and Rammus with her.

You remind me of Riot's balance team before they ok'd release Ekko. "He has counters, he's balanced enough. Release!"

She's a Vanguard, sure but are we really going to make all Vanguards the same, should that be the goal? Riot in their reworks haven't said "what makes this champion and Assassin/Mage/ADC" they've said "what makes them different from others in their role". For Sejuani the simple answer to that question is her W.

Sejuani's W is literally a %HP auto and then Amumu's W for a few seconds. Her unique thing is her frost mechanic, tied to her passive and E. W is a filler ability at best.

LankPants7 votes

You remind me of Riot's balance team before they ok'd release Ekko. "He has counters, he's balanced enough. Release!"

You remind me of a typical bronze who'd prefer to yell and scream about how OP an underpowed champ is rather than just learning how to play VS them. There's nothing inherently wrong about a champ with a weak early game having strong late game scaling, Sej's W scaling is what allows her to become a late game threat and that is important to her identity.

Sejuani's a late game scaling champ. Of course a Bronzie would hate her, Bronze games are the longest by rank.

Sejuani's W is literally a %HP auto and then Amumu's W for a few seconds. Her unique thing is her frost mechanic, tied to her passive and E. W is a filler ability at best.

Amumu's W is literally Sej's without the hit.

MAGA MAN X 20202 votes

Literally the only difference between the 2 is mummy gets a little mpen and sej gets an extra slow. Their 'W's are more or less the same, their ults are more or less the same, their initiation pattern is more or less the same. There is very very little one can do that the other can't.

LankPants4 votes

their ults are more or less the same, their initiation pattern is more or less the same. There is very very little one can do that the other can't.

You were correct up until this point.

Sej actually has a lot of engage patterns that Amumu doesn't. This is due to her Q being ground targeted while Amumu's requires an enemy target, as well as her ult's range.

Take the situation where there's a tank standing about 400 units in front of his team and blocking your engage. Sejuani has the option to go around them, Q beside them and throwing her ult past. This is a combo that Amumu can't do.

This is why I say out of the two Sejuani is the better design.

Malicious Metal10 votes

Oh golly! New items that can be abused by everyone BUT their intended users!

Tychusfindlay9196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnpjrcAi,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-02-01T01:15:32.775+0000)

Oh golly! New items that can be abused by everyone BUT their intended users!

Honestly, they should rework some tank stats, and make tank items half flat values and half % based on base stats or something. It would make tank items optimal on tanks and juggernauts (intended users) and sub-optimal on those outside who want to use them.

Melledoneus7 votes

Cool it, Metal.

This is the update that will change the game the most. It's a huge hit or miss, so enjoy it while it lasts, you glorious metal bastard.

LankPants6 votes

Sejuani needs her identity looked at or she'll never be healthy in a tank meta.

With the exception of when she was overtuned when was Sejuani not healthy in any meta? Sometimes champs come out of changes a little strong numerically, shit happens.

Melledoneus2 votes

Her kit feels unrewarding without her ult unless you deal huge chunks of damage.

As a Vanguard, this is an issue. She's a less reliable Amumu.

LankPants2 votes

As a Vanguard, this is an issue. She's a less reliable Amumu.

No, she's more reliable than Amumu. She doesn't have to hit a skillshot to engage and her ult has better range. There's no world where she's less reliable than Amumu.

Her kit feels unrewarding without her ult unless you deal huge chunks of damage.

Why is this a problem? Should every tank be a milktoast Shield+CC+Durability Steroid? Sejuani's different to other tanks in that her main goals aren't just CC and durability, she trades some of her durability for damage. This is a good thing, having every single tank do the same thing would be shit, having a couple of tanks who don't fall perfectly into line with your perception of what a traditional tank is is a good thing.

tzvi5 votes

didn't they promise a while ago that divers (aatrox) would be the next class update?

EndlessSorcerer9 votes

They said they were debating between divers and vanguards.

Slythion3 votes

aatrox got shafted again :^)

seriously though...what has it been? 2 or more years of "we'll handle him later" ?

RoloDeSwigs4 votes

Yorick

Slythion5 votes

#PolarBearsAreCool

Melledoneus5 votes

#It'sSpelled'Poll'YouDisrespectfulReprobate

Renascent5 votes

I expect this to be what I see every game after the tank class update: http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/1191423/World-of-Tanks-logo.png

Melledoneus14 votes

Good. Maybe games will last longer.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Depends if Tanks will still demolish squishies for some inane reason.

Melledoneus3 votes

FFS which tank are you talking about? If it's Zac, Poppy, Malphite or Rammus stop yourself before I do.

If it's any other tank going nothing but tank you're exaggerating to an unholy degree.

50000000000000004 votes

Back in cinderhulk meta, tanks were strong not because they were a CC threat, but rather a damage threat. I don't think that's good for the game. It's debatably whether that's happening now, but it is certainly unhealthy for the game.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

You get it. Tanks should be disruption threats, not damage threats.

Variks the Loyal5 votes

{quoted}

You get it. Tanks should be disruption threats, not damage threats.

I feel like Vanguards should be damage threats AND disruption threats, while Wardens should just be disruption threats.

I'm not saying Vanguards should do as much damage as a proper Fighter, but they should have enough baked into their kit that scales with defenses that they cannot be ignored in a teamfight. If, for example, Sejuani charges into the backline, she should deal enough damage that she's a threat that cannot be ignored, so that her enemies don't just peel off of her and go for Sejuani's allies instead.

Wardens, however, should mostly be disruption threats because they stick close to allies. The trade off for this is that they get abilities to defend allies as well, like Braum's Unbreakable and Stand Behind Me, Maokai's Vengeful Maelstrom, and Shen's, Spirit's Refuge.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

If they can kill squishies, what's the point of picking otherwise? You have a damage threat that will kill their backline, CC as a fallback if behind or as a kill mechanism if ahead, and tankiness to survive going in. If anything, I'd rather Vanguards apply debuffs like Malphite AS steal, while Wardens apply buffs like Taric W and Braum E.

Ralanr2 votes

Imo Thornmail needs to go away. It directly punishes people for fighting tanks correctly.

Melledoneus15 votes

Then tanks would only be able to be lifesteal bags. Thornmail sacrifices some survivability (HP) for the ability to punish one type of damage dealer.

50000000000000001 votes

Lifesteal is actually less effective on tanks though.

Melledoneus4 votes

item 3036 Huh, suddenly everyone on the enemy team got a lot less tanky. Drink up!

Rockm Sockm1 votes

{quoted}

item 3036 Huh, suddenly everyone on the enemy team got a lot less tanky. Drink up!

This item was dumpstered along time ago and is a shadow of its former self.

Melledoneus5 votes

So is thornmail but you see people complaining about it still.

GinkoG1 votes

Wait...what happened to vel?

Melledoneus12 votes

They made a perfectly balanced champion into a true damage cannon.

Blitzidious1 votes

Where does he stand balance wise as of today?

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

Pretty much exactly the same.

Riot backpedaled a bit but honestly not much changed about Vel, before or after rework.

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