@Morello: Something you said about Soraka [Veigar Thread]

Hyrum Graff·Apr 8, 2015·33 votes·3,038 views

If I recall correctly, when Soraka's rework was on the table, you said something like this:

Instead of saying, "A healer can't work in League," instead we asked ourselves, "What would it take to make a healer work in League?"

Have you noticed the pattern?

However, here's a more recent quote:

A vital part of Veigar's identity has always been about catching people out and 100-0ing them in the blink of an eye ... we found that the full 100-0 combo wasn't something we wanted to support. (Source)

To be completely honest, I can reliably burst harder with than I can with veigar right now.

This post isn't rage; it's an intellectual challenge, which I know you like:

Instead of saying "A burst mage can't work in League," can we ask ourselves, "What would it take to make a burst mage (essentially, a ranged assassin) work in League?" and
If League is to have a premier burst mage, is Veigar the best candidate?

edit: to be absolutely clear; I am NOT saying "Veigar is UP, Riot pls buff." I'm saying "Veigar is having an identity crisis. Is he supposed to be a burst mage? If so, how can we make him back one, without bringing back unhealthy patterns?"

51 Comments

ForPortalApr 8, 20157 votes

The problem there is that the 100-0 burst is a lot more disruptive than healing. Healing makes it harder to win a battle of attrition, but at least you still get to fight that battle. Nuking people to death before they can react just makes the least fun part of the game - waiting to respawn - take up a disproportionate amount of your playing time.

I do like the idea of making Veigar more about landing his Event Horizon around an enemy than with the edge, by improving his Q and W when used against a captive audience. It adds character, making him the kind of guy who locks his enemies in cages so he can torment them in safety instead of the plain old stun + nuke combo.

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20158 votes

{quoted}

The problem there is that the 100-0 burst is a lot more disruptive than healing. Healing makes it harder to win a battle of attrition, but at least you still get to fight that battle. Nuking people to death before they can react just makes the least fun part of the game - waiting to respawn - take up a disproportionate amount of your playing time.

I think all that means is that there would only be a specific set of conditions under which Veigar can 100-0 someone. Imagine...

When enemies are trapped inside Event Horizon, hitting a Q deals 1/4 damage but resets its cooldown (cassio style) and puts a stack on his opponent. R deals 30% more damage per stack. Or %hp per stack, or something like that.

Heck, maybe we could do something like that all the time, where Q marks people and gives additional effects to veigar's other abilities. Maybe Q, W, and E all have a unique mark they put on an enemy champion, and if you get all 3 marks on someone then R does double damage.

I do like the idea of making Veigar more about landing his Event Horizon around an enemy than with the edge, by improving his Q and W when used against a captive audience. It adds character, making him the kind of guy who locks his enemies in cages so he can torment them in safety instead of the plain old stun + nuke combo.

What if we made his W hit like a sweeper (ie, the line of a sweeper), rotating around, dealing damage in a circle? Now when Veigar traps people in Event Horizon, he can throw down his W on them and force them to run around in a circle within it if they don't want to take damage. Sounds like trapping and tormenting people to me.

FearEngineerApr 9, 20152 votes

That's such a cool idea!

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The problem there is that the 100-0 burst is a lot more disruptive than healing.

Some other ideas:

What if we gave Veigar's ult Cait's targeting mechanism, but with a shorter cast range?
- Clear Counterplay: Body Block by the tank
Which if one of Veigar's abilities was a tether where, for each second the tether remains intact, veigar gets a damage amp against his target but takes increased damage from all sources?
- Clear Counterplay: "Veigar is vulnerable now; kill him before he amps up enough to 1-shot the unfortunate soul who he's targeting."

Not saying either of these would be good or fun on Veigar, but I do believe they are both ways in which we could make a healthy burst mage.

ReazaleApr 9, 20151 votes

But its allowed to exist on a lot of champs that (maybe they dont disable you but) can do lethal dmg in less than a second, thats less time than Veigars W takes to fall. Even with Veigars old stun , it took him like 2 seconds or more to execute his full combo (from the first cast til all the dmg is dealt)

WhiteGuyWannaBeApr 9, 20151 votes

Hell, Viktor can nuke Veigar from inside the stun circle and then probably zhonya before either ult or E could land. Its cool the new Veigar is kinda working, but he definitely needs a rework.

Teridax68Apr 8, 20154 votes

I feel like a lot of recent champion gameplay updates (e.g. Veigar , Mordekaiser , Zilean ) were done just to tone down or remove some of their less healthy aspects, without necessarily trying to make them fulfill their theme/gameplay fantasy as best as they could. I agree that Veigar should be the burst mage in this game, and while I think some of his changes were necessary (his instant stun was honestly not healthy, even if it changing it was painful to all Veigar players), there's a lot more that could be done to put emphasis on his enemy-deleting power. Hopefully, Veigar will see more work in the future.

If I had to change something on his kit right now, it would be his ult: as it stands, the ability itself isn't really the best it could be: whereas Veigar's changes gave him a greater overall fighting range, Primordial Burst is still extremely close-ranged, and the change to his stun made this awkward to use, even if the added risk is a good thing. The 80% enemy AP scaling feels a little gimmicky (This isn't the most interesting way to gain an edge over enemy mages), and its instant point-and-click nature prevents it from having that much depth or gameplay. I would personally massively increase its range and base damage (perhaps even its scaling?), remove its enemy AP scaling and keep it point-and-click, with the caveat that you'd have to stand still, channel and hold your cursor over your target for a certain amount of time to land the ult's full damage. That way, Veigar would still keep his enemy-deleting potential (and could potentially afford to deal even more single-target damage with the entirety of his kit) while also offering a lot more counterplay to his opponent.

ReazaleApr 9, 20151 votes

First i will say that i knew the stun was going to be changed but the painfull thing is that no changes were made to his W to address what this change was going to do to it, it made it near useless, there is almost no point in even trying and it might as well be another zoning tool most of the time.

And u dont need to add more counterplay/weakness to Veigar, he already have enough... he needs strenght on things that are fun to have on, but they just dumped all of his powerbudget in hi Q , like the whole of it is in it and how u use it to farm (and u have to use it to farm , thats why they took .2ap ratio on his ult so u are FORCED to farm the DMG u are lacking), they buffed it so much he even has a decent winrate now, even tho his E and W are mostly a zoning tools and barely anything else unless chained with teammates. The strenght of a mid laner shouldnt be achived only on the presence of ur team and if u think so , might as well push to make orianna unable to shield/speed boost herself ,make zed unable to use shadows unless there is a teammate around or leblanc unable to triger her Q secondary dmg be herself...

SaiannaApr 8, 20154 votes

If you think about it: zed was allowed to burst squishy targets 100-0, because of being in "assassin" class. While Veigar as "anti-mage" class can't even destroy his squishy opponents (mages)..

Then when boards were full of Zed hate main line of defense was "buy Zhyona/QSS" then why this doesn't apply on Veigars line of defense too? Veigar used to rely on players skill, now he relies on enemy fails.. I don't really believe that's something "anti-mage" should be.

ReazaleApr 9, 20151 votes

A character that is only based on enemy fails is bad, and thats kinda what W and E are for Veigar right now.

MetalGearTeemuApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you think about it: zed was allowed to burst squishy targets 100-0, because of being in "assassin" class. While Veigar as "anti-mage" class can't even destroy his squishy opponents (mages)..

Then when boards were full of Zed hate main line of defense was "buy Zhyona/QSS" then why this doesn't apply on Veigars line of defense too? Veigar used to rely on players skill, now he relies on enemy fails.. I don't really believe that's something "anti-mage" should be.

the reason viegar was nerfed was because his stun was shutting down korean LC$Bigplays. The burst angle is what they're trying to sell you on as their reason for doing it.

They shut him down because he was being used to counterpick the holy mobility assassins/junglers.

CrazedPorcupineApr 8, 20153 votes

This is actually a well written post. However, until they can really sit down and figure out what to do with veigar, whether to keep him the Anti-AP mage that he is now, (Really that's the truest identity I see with him, he feeds off of your own power, and destroys you with it) or to change his identity.

Right now, I think veigar is in a decent spot. I think in order to really make him fun, engaging and worth taking in competitive, he'd need a kit overhaul like Soraka got, which is what you pointed out.

Personally, I think Veigar can handle being untouched until The Poppy, Urgot, Yorick reworks are complete.

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is actually a well written post.

Thanks!

However, until they can really sit down and figure out what to do with veigar, whether to keep him the Anti-AP mage that he is now, (Really that's the truest identity I see with him, he feeds off of your own power, and destroys you with it) or to change his identity.

Actually, I think this is part of the problem. Veigar's identity is too spread out. He's anti-AP, but that's also Kassadin's thing. He's a burst mage, but so is Viktor. He's the tiny master of evil, but Teemo also competes for that role.

That's one of the reasons why I asked the second question in the OP. While I think Veigar IS a good candidate for a burst mage, I'm also enamored with the fantasy that the 5.4 patch notes talked about when they added the delay: lock people in a cage and torment them.

Right now, I think veigar is in a decent spot. I think in order to really make him fun, engaging and worth taking in competitive, he'd need a kit overhaul like Soraka got, which is what you pointed out.

No matter which direction they take him, agreed.

Personally, I think Veigar can handle being untouched until The Poppy, Urgot, Yorick reworks are complete.

Also agreed, objectively speaking. Subjectively, I play Veigar but not any of the others, so.... NO RIOT IT CAN'T WAIT.

CrazedPorcupineApr 8, 20158 votes

So, this is a tentative Kit rework for veigar that I've come up with in just a little bit of time. Designed to keep him as an infinite scaling destroyer burst mage.

NEW PASSIVE: Star Formation Veigar gains bonus Ability power based on the Unit he kills with any of his abilities. 0.5 Ability Power for small jungle monsters and small minions, 1 AP for large monsters and minions, 5 AP for champions and 7 AP for epic Monsters (Baron and Dragon).

Q: Gamma Burst: Veigar releases a burst of gamma radiation that can hit up to two targets, dealing Magic damage. If this enters Event horizon, it will automatically seek out the nearest target (Prioritizing champions) and deal an extra X% damage and if the target is a champion, the burst will deal 75% damage to any unit it passes through on the way to the target.

(This is basically his current Q, but without the AP gain on it since it's his new passive)

W: Crushing Gravity After a brief Delay, the gravity an area collapses crushing all units, dealing heavy magic damage. (Essentially dark matter, but should do less damage) If cast within the realms of Event Horizon, The Delay is cut in half and the damage zone fills the entirety of Event Horizon.

E: Event Horizon After a brief delay, a cage forms around a target area, enemies attempting to leave the cage will be stunned, while enemies can enter the cage without issue. (You can enter a black hole, but you can't escape it). Veigar's other abilities have bonus affects within Event Horizon (Event Horizon would have it's AoE decreased by about 10-15% so it's not quite as large, and so that his W doesn't become bonkers OP if he catches lots of people inside.)

R: Dual Nova Veigar releases the power of two stars in a blast of power dealing damage based on Veigar's Ability power. If the blast passes through the walls of Event Horizen, the blast also deals damage based on the targets Ability Power as well as Veigar's own.

I didn't add any numbers except for the passive because I don't really know which values would be good. I also wanted to solidify the idea of you get bonuses against targets IN the cage. Also, by making his AP gain his overall passive, it allows him to be less "Feast or Famine" The values of bonus AP would likely need to be modified because it now works whenever he kills a unit with his abilities. However, without his mana regen passive, spamming abilities to farm like that would mean he'd have to be more careful.

SirPacifistaApr 9, 20151 votes

Would prefer that to the current Veigar, +1

[but to be fair i would play him with a "FOX NEWS" Skin rather than in his current form, hope that burns Riot]

UPfreelyApr 9, 20152 votes

i really like your concept though I've never really like veigars ap ration based on enemy ap, instead I'd like to propose that his ult damage goes up for each ap more he has than his target.(i.e. a mage would fair better vs him than a AD champion)

CrazedPorcupineApr 9, 20152 votes

well, since I didn't really spend too much time on the rework, I just wanted to keep the main concepts of Veigar's kit the same (Infinite Scaling AP) while also giving him the ability to really twist and manipulate people he traps, making trapping, not just stunning them, what he really wants to do.

His ult can obviously be changed for it's secondary effect, but I'm not really sure if "every point of AP more he has than his opponent it does 1 extra magic damage" since that means you ignore AP champs completely since you don't get the most damage and instead focus on the supports, ADCs and anyone else that hasn't built AP.

Perhaps "If Dual Nova passes through event horizon, Half the damage is dealt as TRUE damage." (Have the AP ratio down around .8 to 1.0 since he can stack up AP like nuts with the passive I made)

UPfreelyApr 9, 20151 votes

well 1:1 would just be silly but say it did half that or whatever seems appropriate.

Champion SkinApr 9, 20152 votes

Actually Trundle is better at stealing stats and using them against his opponent...as he steals your HP+Armor+MR+AD and all champions have those things.. while not all champions have AP

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20153 votes

Personally, I think AP stacking and Primordial Burst make Veigar an excellent candidate to be League's premier burst mage.

But I also thought Sion was a great Schwarzenegger, so I'm open to taking Veigar in a different direction if there's something awesome that would make him even more... evil.

I'm leaving this in the comments so it'll hopefully get buried, because I want a discussion of this stuff.

SantoJoeApr 8, 20153 votes

The main problem Veigar has now is that he has no a specific job in the game. he is not a poke mage nor a burst one at your own (you need your team in order to land a W, which is part of the burst combo).

He can't deal realiable damage to the oponent laner (Q blocked by minions/dodgeable, W (1,45 seconds between the click and the hit), R (low range and is at lvl 6)). So, if the enemy is going mid versus Veigar, he knows Veigar can't kill him without the help of his jungler, even in that case, he could avoid the cage in order to make just a 1 vs 1 with the jungler.

It has been said a lot of times already. W and E was the same skill, if you change E, you have to change W accordingly. No matter how much +100 range buffs on Q they are gonna make, if W keeps being like that, he won't be viable versus good players.

IllumanatiObamaApr 8, 20152 votes

Thank lord, an actually engaging thread!

And I like the way you brought up the question of how we can make a burst mage work.

PsyturkeyApr 8, 20152 votes

I agree with you philosophically, but are you really telling me you think that Ashe build can burst harder than: Veigar item 3089 item 3165 item 3135 item 3020 item 3285 item 3157

If Veigar hits ONLY his Q and R (easy to do), has no AP from stacking his Q, has no masteries or runes that will hit for 2151.

That's almost always enough to pop a squishy and you don't even need masteries, runes, AP from his Q or to hit more than two of his spells (one of which is a point and click 1300 damage nuke in this case).

Now, if the target survives the initial burst Ashe would have been a better pick because after she's done bursting she's still an adc. This isn't necessarily an optimized build either.

Although again, I find the philosophical discussion interesting, I don't mean to shoot it down.

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I agree with you philosophically, but are you really telling me you think that Ashe build can burst harder than:

Total burst? Not quite as hard -- Ashe needs to get off a couple autoattacks. However, her stun is WAY more reliable, so if we're counting burst as "amount of damage you can get off before the opponent has a chance to react," yes, I do think ashe with that build is burstier.

If Veigar hits ONLY his Q and R (easy to do), has no AP from stacking his Q, has no masteries or runes that will hit for 2151.

In a game the other day, at my 4-item build (IE, Shiv, LW, Tri), I W-AA'd graves for ~1200 damage. The ult is an additional 630 (600 base, I have 30 AP from triforce). 1-2 more AAs in the ult stun duration would have added on probably 600-800 damage... Yeah, it's similar, in the 2500 range. Again, Veigar probably a little higher, but much less reliable (and Ashe has sustained dmg to boot, but that's beyond the point).

That's almost always enough to pop a squishy and you don't even need masteries, runes, AP from his Q or to hit more than two of his spells (one of which is a point and click 1300 damage nuke in this case).

Tbh, one of my favorite things about pre-dfg-removal Veigar was dfg-comboing a tank from 100-25 so my team could take him out before a fight began.

Now, if the target survives the initial burst Ashe would have been a better pick because after she's done bursting she's still an adc. This isn't necessarily an optimized build either.

Yeah, but we can ignore this because we're just talking about burst here.

Although again, I find the philosophical discussion interesting, I don't mean to shoot it down.

Discussion is good, keep it coming!

SquidblimpApr 8, 20152 votes

The problem is 100-0ing people BEFORE THEY CAN REACT. Riot is trying to give Veigar's enemies a chance to dodge his stun so that they aren't instantly bursted. However, his stun is TOO EASY to dodge now, and this makes his meteor useless, as it can't land on any decent opponent.

A better idea that would fit thematically too would be to try to trap enemies in his cage instead of stunning them on the wall. Then, perhaps follow-up abilities would stun them while they were in the cage? You could cage, Q for the stun, meteor, ult. Or you could start with the ult for the stun.

Or perhaps the AOE of the meteor could be increased inside the cage to make landing it viable.

Or perhaps the inside of the cage could slow enemies so you could land your meteor.

Or, even make the meteor cast FASTER inside the cage so that you can land it easier.

Any of these would make Veigar reliable, while still letting his opponent have counter-play for his abilities.

ZephyrDrakeApr 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The problem is 100-0ing people BEFORE THEY CAN REACT. Riot is trying to give Veigar's enemies a chance to dodge his stun so that they aren't instantly bursted. However, his stun is TOO EASY to dodge now, and this makes his meteor useless, as it can't land on any decent opponent.

A better idea that would fit thematically too would be to try to trap enemies in his cage instead of stunning them on the wall. Then, perhaps follow-up abilities would stun them while they were in the cage? You could cage, Q for the stun, meteor, ult. Or you could start with the ult for the stun.

Or perhaps the AOE of the meteor could be increased inside the cage to make landing it viable.

Or perhaps the inside of the cage could slow enemies so you could land your meteor.

Or, even make the meteor cast FASTER inside the cage so that you can land it easier.

Any of these would make Veigar reliable, while still letting his opponent have counter-play for his abilities.

those would be decent ideas... but nah, we all know Riot is just going to add more power to his Q since that's all he is allowed to do anymore... that and R people

CubedJusticeApr 9, 20154 votes

Yeah, when I play him, and I hit my E, I don't have time to throw down my W because I'm shocked I hit it.

Dangerous ManApr 8, 20151 votes

Wow you must play Veigar wrong.

Hyrum GraffApr 8, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pixel Molotov,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnGYxIPu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-04-08T19:05:58.755+0000)

Wow you must play Veigar wrong.

Updated the language of the OP to reflect what I meant better:

"I can reliably burst harder with [Ashe]."

Veigar can burst harder, if you hit everything right, but Ashe can burst almost as hard with that build {see numbers here} and does it more reliably. And has a LOT more sustained damage, to boot, but that's beside the point.

DeloricVIApr 8, 20151 votes

I've seen this idea around for a change in his W... what if we made the range just smaller than the size of the cage, but give it a damage gradient. You can just put it in the middle and the enemy caught in the cage can step aside to avoid the brunt of the damage, or you can play risky and try to push them around in the cage to catch them in the center for more damage than it currently deals. Or, you can land it directly on their heads if they're stunned.

Just my opinion. I feel like that small change would possibly fix some of the issue; Veigar becomes notorious for trapping people in the cage and tormenting them, the cage has a purpose other than to stun with the edge of it, and Veigar has some more viability.

qetzelApr 8, 20151 votes

Very good point. Well made.

I would like to say that it took several years of crap healing and 3 or 4 reworks before they found something that worked. I would expect them to keep trying with Veigar but wouldn't be surprised if it took longer given that they need to find something completely new for Veigar (rather than working on a previously existing idea).

EDIT: Because I forgot to discuss his theme. Gameplay wise, when I think of Veigar I think single target burst. While playing, that is what makes Veigar... Veigar. Everywhere else, I see Veigar as everyone sees Teemo (at least in game - out of game I can see Teemo as a stupid Yordle). Veigar is a once magnificent, benevolent creature who has been twisted into demonic madness.

Lord Graves IIIApr 9, 20151 votes

Theoretically the burst pattern's healthy version is that veigar can only land his W and by extension the kill by the enemy making some mistake, be it getting engaged on by the tank, or accidently hitting the edge of a veigar E. The idea being that the enemy has to somehow mess up for veigar to just delete them, which seems fair. Veigar has the tools to barely survive and escape, but the capacity to destroy when the enemy gets impatient, or sloppy, or greedy.

ReazaleApr 9, 20152 votes

Leblanc and Zed, and almot any other AP can do that but doesnt need more than a single simple and small wrong move to land a devastating combo on them... i dont see why Veigar has to be any different and depend on their enemys making huge fuck ups to deliver what others do with much smaller mistakes (or should a say missteps) or just coming in range.

Lord Graves IIIApr 10, 20151 votes

Leblanc needs to land a skillshot or come to basically melee range to do it. Zed needs to do both. Veigar used to be able to do this, while never getting close. Also the misstep was "Be within 1050 range of Veigar".

Veigar can still destroy people. Landing W in teamfights is really not that hard. Landing a good ring in a teamfight still wins the fight. His early game is awful, but for 95% of the playerbase, that was Veigar's worst phase anyway. He doesn't have an instant stun, so he isn't quite as strong a duelist anymore.

Yeah, Leblanc and Zed can dumpster veigar in 1 on 1 fights usually, but isn't that sort of their job? They can't cage a teamfight and they can't deal as much AOE damage as veigar does. Also, veigar still has capacity to delete an opponent who missteps and eats the stun. Or if they just get slowed by a teammate and eat the W.

Leblanc and Zed, and almot any other AP

Viktor perhaps? Cause he deletes people with the same degree of fairness as veigar. Annie? Annie falls off harder than veigar. Casseopea? Get real. Lacks the zone control and burst. Lissandra? She doesn't do anything at all resembling veigar's damage. If she goes full glass cannon she can burst....at close range. Orianna? Lower damage and still can't hold a fight down as well. Admittedly better utility overall.

PKnowledgeApr 10, 20152 votes

Viktor, Annie, and Lissandra have a better burst at 6 than Veigar. And you forgot Ahri/Malz/Vel'koz/Lux/Syndra. Get CC by one of those, and you're dead if they add ignite. Annie, Lissandra and Malz just need to get in range, while Vel'koz, Ahri, Viktor have to land their CC. I don't think that any of those CC is easier to dodge than Veigar's E (Maybe Viktor's)

Sure, they can't burst as hard as Veigar late, but at least they can burst. Give him a decent CC that let him burst, and then we can talk about burst damages.

Lord Graves IIIApr 10, 20151 votes

I tried to stick to champs who have been seen as "Good" lately. Malz is a really close comparison. Especially because much like Veigar he dies like a chump and is highly vulnerable for much of the time. Also, I can only really speak for Malz, Syndra, and Vel Koz, but Veigar does things that they do not. For that matter, none of their CC or zoning is as strong as his.

Largely they are stronger than Veigar, but he offers a theme and gameplay niche I just can't satistfy with any of the others. And I remained convinced that he can be balanced without....you know. Having the longest CC in the game on an undodgable spell.

PKnowledgeApr 11, 20152 votes

I get your point. I'm not asking for the old stun, and I'm fine with having a weak lane phase. I think it's a bit like Twisted Fate : he can't do much in lane, so he has to farm, but can be useful when he hits 6. But TF CC is far more reliable in lane, and won't be deleted as easily as Veigar thanks to it. Orianna is a great farmer too, and can still punish really hard if you misstep, zoning you more often than Veigar, and she have a shield/move speed.

I don't want a sure way to take kill alone mid like before. But at the same time, I don't want to stay under turret waiting for the dive that I can't counter any more during 15 minutes.

Lord Graves IIIApr 15, 20151 votes

To be fair, I'd argue Twisted Fate is much easier to gank than veigar. His stun is easily screwed up, and if veigar can just get the ring in a good position, he doesn't need to actually land the stun to escape the gank.

PKnowledgeApr 15, 20151 votes

I won't deny that, Veigar is pretty safe as long as he's not too far on the lane.

ReazaleApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Graves III,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dnGYxIPu,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2015-04-10T00:08:44.446+0000)

Leblanc needs to land a skillshot or come to basically melee range to do it. Zed needs to do both. Veigar used to be able to do this, while never getting close. Also the misstep was "Be within 1050 range of Veigar".

And for Zed is "be within 1125 range of zed" and for leblanc is "be within 1200/1300 of leblanc" (range depends on Q execution of the combo or using W as the mimic). And even ur "1050" was more like to get stunned, the dmg came (like i said) almost 1.5 seconds after the stun, i mean , have u seen his ult travel time? its SO LOOONG.

Veigar can still destroy people. Landing W in teamfights is really not that hard. Landing a good ring in a teamfight still wins the fight. His early game is awful, but for 95% of the playerbase, that was Veigar's worst phase anyway. He doesn't have an instant stun, so he isn't quite as strong a duelist anymore.

True, nothing to discuss here (maybe the W ease to land, but Veigar aint that bad in the chaos of teamfights, i cant deny that).

Yeah, Leblanc and Zed can dumpster veigar in 1 on 1 fights usually, but isn't that sort of their job? They can't cage a teamfight and they can't deal as much AOE damage as veigar does. Also, veigar still has capacity to delete an opponent who missteps and eats the stun. Or if they just get slowed by a teammate and eat the W.

Both leblanc and Zed have higher aoe dmg than Veigar, i mean , look at fucking zed, his Q is aoe, his E is aoe, and if he dropped a shadow and them casted something (like u should be doing) those shadows will also aoe, the only thing on zed kit that doesnt have aoe potential is his passive, cos he can even make his aa do aoe :P. You could say that Zed should, he is an assasin , but leblanc? is also a mage, leblanc shouldnt hold any advantage against Veigar when he is an antimage. And yes, u are right, Veigar can still delate ppl , but their openents need to fuck up hard and step into the stun (when other champs threath just with their range cos they can land their own skills) or u have to get set up be an ally.... if u get into range, does zed need to get a setup to kill? does leblanc? does lissandra? annie? viktor? Orianna? Syndra? Ziggs? Xerath? do anyone else need a friendly setup to land 2 of their skills unless the enemy fucks up really hard(the particles on his stun still have .75 warning on them, they just start with the cast). If he cant be a threat 1v1, he should obliterate teamfights to counterbalance such weakness, and he doesnt. You cant even try to fight on the lanning , its a waste of time and mana :S.

Viktor perhaps? Cause he deletes people with the same degree of fairness as veigar. Annie? Annie falls off harder than veigar. Casseopea? Get real. Lacks the zone control and burst. Lissandra? She doesn't do anything at all resembling veigar's damage. If she goes full glass cannon she can burst....at close range. Orianna? Lower damage and still can't hold a fight down as well. Admittedly better utility overall.

Annie can kill u be herself at almost any point in the game and still offers the utility of her stun that doesnt require as much as Veigar stun to hit. Cass aint a burst mage, her pattern is different and her zone of control is around her (cos if u get poisoned and get close u are pretty much dead), Veigar has this , buts he is not as threatening as cassiopeia is (higher cds and lack of sustained dmg). Lissandra has a instant stun if she wants to fight, closer ranged and telegraphed gap closer but she can do it. Orianna doesnt have as much base or ratios and thats true, but all of her spells are AoE and aside from her Q and pasive they have some kind of utility tied to it some times 2 (aoe slow+speed boost and shield+mr+armor).

Off those that u said, the ones that could have a problem would be cass ori and viktor, and only if they miss most of their skills.

My main proble with this, is how bad it feels to be so dependant on teammates/enemys to (almost) land ur skills for u, he is a mid laner, not a support, why should he need some1 (when others do not) around to bring some (less dodgeable) cc so he can use his? u could said that he has no W or E til teamfights start or some1 with cc ganks (off course unless ur enemys are bad, and i have seen ppl get hit be his stun....). His W should have been changed along with his stun... but it wasn done like that and ur W is now really really bad unless there is some1 around to help you... it should have been changed.... (even tho before this, his W was the skill that gave me the most enjoyment when it landed, cos of the sound and the dmg, it always feels good to hit one... sadly , that barely happens anymore)

Lord Graves IIIApr 10, 20151 votes

My main proble with this, is how bad it feels to be so dependant on teammates/enemys to (almost) land ur skills for u, he is a mid laner, not a support, why should he need some1 (when others do not) around to bring some (less dodgeable) cc so he can use his? u could said that he has no W or E til teamfights start or some1 with cc ganks (off course unless ur enemys are bad, and i have seen ppl get hit be his stun....).

I guess my issue is that I play veigar specifically for this feeling.

i LOVE his weak laning phase. I love slowly gathering power, trying to stay alive, always staying in lane for just one more Q farm. I love my team set up my perfect stun then smashing them to pieces with meteors and stuff. Veigar has long periods of intense vulnerability in exchange for that late game power. He needs his allies to access this power, but that is part of the fun of it to me.

Especially because Yordles are such social creatures. He needs him team on a fundamental level, but he is designed for and focused on dealing high damage and killing opponents. Both anti-social and yet needs people. I find this paradox very very fun to play.

When they changed veigar, they really just reinforced the playstyle I already enjoyed from him. I liked to watch that AP count raise higher and higher, and farm until that magical moment when the team meets up and I wipe the smirk off of their mid laner's face. (yeah sometimes you beat them, but Veigar loses lane to almost everyone purely on kit strength.) The weak early game but powerful powerful teamfighting, and a real sense of evil. That brief moment before the meteor drops but you know they cannot (will not) dodge it. Mmm. So satisfying.

VarnocApr 9, 20151 votes

I've taken up the hobby of creating reworked kits for champions like Veigar, that need attention to give Riot some ideas to work with. I'd like to do one for Veigar, but I haven't played him as much as I would like to fully understand the champion and what makes him Veigar. While I intend to rectify this in the near future, I can draw up a prototype kit if you could help me figure out what is core to his identity. As of right now:

Passive could be scrapped in favor of something else more intresting
Q is pretty iconic, the passive scaling is core to his identity in my opinion
W could be changed to be more intresting
E is pretty lackluster at the moment, but is core to Veigar as well
R is... boring.
Laugh after killing a champion is core

Thoughts?

EDIT: Drew up a preliminary kit, numbers are rough estimates:

P - Power Vacuum - ~ PASSIVE: Each unit Veigar kills with an ability (and possibly item effects such as Lich Bane or Luden's Echo), he gains 0.5 bonus Ability Power.

This bonus is doubled against enemy champions, siege minions, and Large/Epic Monsters.

Q - Baleful Strike - ~ ACTIVE: Veigar launches an orb of negative energy from his staff in the targeted direction, dealing magic damage to the first enemy it encounters and passing through them, dealing 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 75% of the initial damage to the target behind the first.

Killing an enemy unit with this ability refunds 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35% of the mana cost of this ability.

W - Meteor - ~ PASSIVE: Veigar stores enough power to draw a small Meteor to the surface once every 20 seconds. Veigar can store enough power to cast this ability twice in a row. (Up to 2 charges at any time.) Ability casts reduce the remaining cooldown to the next charge by 2 seconds.

~ ACTIVE: Veigar consumes a charge of Stored Power to call a Meteor to the targeted location, dealing magic damage to enemies upon impact and knocking enemies hit in the center of the effect away slightly.

E - Event Horizon - ~ ACTIVE: Veigar twists the edges of reality at a nearby location, forming a ring of twisted space after a 0.75 second delay. The ring forms during this delay, starting at the point in the ring closest to Veigar and growing in either direction over the course of the delay.

The ring will be somewhat larger than live
Baleful Strike passes through Event Horizon at twice it's normal speed and reduces the cooldown of Baleful Strike to 0.5 seoconds, but causes it to deal 50% less damage
Enemies that touch the outside of the ring are hurled to the center and stunned by the force of the ability for 0.75 seconds upon landing.

R - Dark Matter - ~ ACTIVE: Veigar releases the orb of Dark Matter contained within his staff in the targeted direction, dealing magic damage to enemies it passes through. Each enemy it passes through causes it to grow in size as it travels (Possibly infinite size if infinite targets are available). Upon reaching the end of it's duration (~4 seconds) or upon Veigar's reactivation, the Dark Matter returns to Veigar at twice the speed it was sent out with.

Veigar triggers his passive for each enemy hit by Dark Matter (once per enemy) when it returns to him at half effectiveness. (+0.25AP per unit hit.)
If Dark Matter passes through Event Horizon, it moves twice as fast.
During it's release, Veigar moves much faster due to not being under the weight of the Dark Matter.

Meep ManApr 9, 20151 votes

This should be how it is with every champion idea.

Hyrum GraffApr 10, 20151 votes

Danke!

SexyTaylorSwiftApr 9, 20151 votes

My thing is that there are plenty of 100-0 mages in the game...some with NO COUNTERPLAY (looking at your Annie), but Veigar isn't allowed? Seems meh at best.

Hyrum GraffApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My thing is that there are plenty of 100-0 mages in the game...some with NO COUNTERPLAY (looking at your Annie), but Veigar isn't allowed? Seems meh at best.

Annie also needs to be changed.

SmknWdlApr 9, 20151 votes

Personally, I never ever had an issue with veigar before... he was fun to play with and play against. He had clear counters: Tanks, AD burst, and ranged AP. Of course if you picked kata into him you were gonna get nuked. But that's just obvious. I mean his rework was totally uncalled for, as he didnt have the highest win rate, wasn't oppressive in lane, and there were much higher priorities than him. He used to be one of my favorite champs, but this kind of half assed rework that he got just ruined him for me. Riot needs to revert him to his original state until they take the time to make a total kit rework (what he really needed if he needed anything). Riot made a mistake (again) and they just haven't admitted it yet.

Hyrum GraffApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I never ever had an issue with veigar before... he was fun to play with and play against. He had clear counters: Tanks, AD burst, and ranged AP. Of course if you picked kata into him you were gonna get nuked. But that's just obvious. I mean his rework was totally uncalled for, as he didnt have the highest win rate, wasn't oppressive in lane, and there were much higher priorities than him. He used to be one of my favorite champs, but this kind of half assed rework that he got just ruined him for me. Riot needs to revert him to his original state until they take the time to make a total kit rework (what he really needed if he needed anything). Riot made a mistake (again) and they just haven't admitted it yet.

I played pre-rework veigar a fair amount. (I'm not implying I stopped b/c of the rework; I had to take a break from league to focus on school at around that time.) Here's a thing that I would regularly do:

summoner 4 E-W-R-Q

-deleted-

/all "In a grand display of skill, Veigar presses all the buttons."

Being completely honest, that combo was anti-fun for Veigar's opponents. "Don't get within 1k units of him or he might flash-delete you" is not adequate counterplay. (For the record, Annie's flash-tibbers needs to go, too).

Also, what about when Veigar is picked as the last pick? Should you not be able to pick Kat, period, because Veigar might get last-picked?

ReazaleApr 10, 20151 votes

True, but now is the other way around, should i not be able to pick Veigar cos the enemy team might pick a mid laner,emm, i mean a kat? (she still hits u with most of her combo even before u finish the casting of ur stun)

Hyrum GraffApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

True, but now is the other way around, should i not be able to pick Veigar cos the enemy team might pick a mid laner,emm, i mean a kat? (she still hits u with most of her combo even before u finish the casting of ur stun)

Oh, I agree that Veigar could use some changes. I think they should be a rework, not a revert.