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"Fighting me is like boxing with shadows"

Elohaven··3 votes·634 views

Feel free to downvote, but let's hear a legit argument.

Why do people expect that killing a Vayne should be that easy when the entire identity of her kit is to be an avid kiter? She's a mobile hypercarry.

With Yasuo, it was a request for a complete erasure of his kit and identity. With Lucian, people wanted damage pumped excessively lower when only an increase in mana costs kept him in check. With Twitch - oh wait. He's still deleting teams faster than they can react.

I saw a post state that killing Vayne was too hard because the whole enemy team peeled for her. This is straight out of the post. What are you expecting with a whole team composition peeling for an ADC?

Any ADC is hard with a whole team peeling for them.

At this point, there's so much circlejerking on the boards more than Yasuo has had for years - even with confirmed nerfs. I think the boards just wants ADCs gone in general with the:

  • "Crit is too strong and a broken mechanic in the game. Remove it"
  • "Bruisers and tanks are too slow and can never catch ADCs"
  • Isn't that the reward for kiting well though
  • "Yasuo doesn't need a buff. He's always been a strong champion"

Problems with Vayne:

  • Annoying toplaner
  • Too strong with Fleet Footwork+Overheal
  • Lethal Tempo negates her scaling as it gives her unnecessary attack speed she should not have as early
  • Runes and the scenario around her give her excessive gold to hit her "late-game" pinnacle during the mid-game (An issue with all champions currently)

Why is Vayne good now? Champions who kept her in check and the meta around her kept her calm. Like any meta switch, there will be a champion who will stand out due to the nerfs of the preceding "strongest" from the past meta.

Everyone keeps sidetracking away from actual issues.

"X" champions is too OP etc etc is actually making things worse. The bigger picture is what has caused X champion to be OP - and the biggest complaints can be attributed to the meta. The scenarios of nerfs and creeping has put champions to high positions as they become the "only thing" viable. Vayne was the only option left with all the nerfs to other ADCs.

Lucian got nerfed. Caitlyn got nerfed. Tristana got nerfed. Draven is so weak with these runes it's baffling. Ezreal and Miss Fortune have higher banrates due to how stupidly strong they are. Remember the lethality meta with Varus, Jhin, and MF? Jinx got nerfed earlier due to how much of a powerhouse she was. How about when Quinn was a nuisance? (Admittedly, not an ADC but her kit was so bad. The meta was simply just worse, allowing her to shine) Remember Kalista? Who was she again?

SKEWERS SKEWERS SKEWERS still exists but will become the next biggest issue once the only duelist ADC able to duel "it" is gone. (In terms of DPS to shutdown Twitch, Vayne is the only ADC mobile and slick enough to truly constantly contest Twitch under his heavy peel and burst)

Then Riot has to nerf assassins , bruisers, tanks and other champions to make things "fair". Then the meta recycles all over again.

Damage is insane right now too.

Inevitably, Vayne was going to get nerfed at some point. It's natural the meta shifted. However, it'll never be a permanent solution and will never look at the fact that damage and mobility creep are causing ADCs to always be nerfed.

No matter what - runes need to have changes to handle this snowball and insane scaling. (Games ending in 12 minutes just should not happen)

Point is, the Vayne bandwagon train is pointless. There needs to be more discussions on the current state of the game. Everybody is quick to give 100 upvotes to a thread offering no solutions but can't spam the same boards section with discussions and solutions related to the game state. And we wonder why we're not being heard and the game has had a creeping problem for a while?

4 Comments

GinoSoldier1 votes

First of all i agree with the statement that there is too much damage in the game. I'd rather see everyone toned down by about 10-15%, reducing tankiness as needed to keep some balance.

The problem with Vayne isn't Vayne herself, it's the entire role that's broken. When Vayne happens to be on top of the ADC wheel of fortune, she's just incredibly annoying to play against, which brings the whiners along.

Crit needs to be reworked into a game mechanic that is controlled, predictable and windowed (say, like merged with every ADC's kit designed windows of power, like Caitlyn's headshots?), of that there's no doubt. But think for a moment of ANY time in league history when an ADC has left botlane without breaking everything along the way. Incredibly rare.

-When Quinn went toplane her kit had to be near gutted to the point where she's a trollpick against other ADCs and her play pattern was reworked into an assassin's. -When Vayne went toplane immediately champions like Ryze who could actually stop her became mandatory meta, warping the entire metagame around herself alone. --When Kindred was released with the intent of being both a jungler AND an ADC, she was inherently so broken in the jungle that she had to straight up lose her botlane viability to go down to par with the rest of the junglers. -When Graves was reworked and left botlane, essentially the same thing happened. -Every time Ezreal pops back in midlane he causes balance shifts and issues, though his kit is mage-like enough he actually fit allright as a midlaner. Same with Jungle. The fact that he doesn't rely on Crit and autoattacks makes him a 'surprisingly' balanced champion. -When Corki migrated to midlane he needed near immediate nerfs that hurt his ability to botlane a lot. And so on, and so on.

See a pattern? No matter where they go, unless ADCs match up against ADCs, their winrate jumps up, indicating that the class as a whole is too strong and needs a good hit of the nerf bat. The entire game warped when they reduced ADC item costs last year, reducing the time ADCs took to kick in and shoving most other late game champions straight out of meta.

It also caused the Ardent Censer meta, which only became relevant as the best way to make ADCs win the powerspike race contest, which decided most of the games at that time.

Also, on the subject of kiting, the issue is that an ADC too strong at kiting gives near zero chance for the pursuer to catch on and do their job, negating their skill expression. One class being skillful should help against, but not negate other classes entirely. This delicate balance is tilted by the fact that mid-lategame ADCs often become so BPS heavy that it can be entirely suicidal to attempt to chase an ADC.

Elohaven1 votes

Crit is predictable. In game design, there's a concept of psuedorandomness where critical chance is actually controlled. Say you have 90% crit chance. You may not crit, but your next attack is much more likely to critically strike. Hence you can stack this and wait to see your critical animation before attacking to get this guarateed crit.

Vayne's entire identity is based on being slippery. Only assassins and divers can get on her with fast burst and pounce.

GinoSoldier1 votes

The fact that it's designed as 'predictable' doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, it's luck-based. As such it (and Kleptomancy, to a similar extent) has no place in a competitive game.

Instead, Crit Chance should be reworked as Crit Damage, and function as a damage enhancer for certain ADC and other champion's skills, like Caitlyn's headshots, Sivir's bouncing blades, MF's double tap mechanism, Lucian's second autoattack from his passive, and Vayne's Silver Bolts.

Those changes would promote actual skill expression while giving ADCs clear conditions for that extra damage AND help keep them in check so that near-every autoattack they do late doesn't do upwards of 600 damage without either cost or skill implication.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Feel free to downvote, but let's hear a legit argument.

Why do people expect that killing a Vayne should be that easy when the entire identity of her kit is to be an avid kiter? She's a mobile hypercarry.

Hypercarries frankly shouldn't exist in League, IMHO. In Dota 2 they are fine because it takes a lot of teamwork to pull them off and you're rewarded for keeping them in the game as a support or early game dominator by letting them scale. League is a little different. In League, to be truly viable, every champion needs to be self-sufficient pretty much from the start. This is why Vayne, when she isn't THE meta ADC, is usually outright bad. Because she's far too risky a pick to justify picking her due to her very weak laning phase. So when Vayne is meta, it's because, for whatever reason, her weak and easily-abused early game is not so. Right now, it's due to new runes, her counters being hot garbage, the meta not being hostile to her, and of course her ability to spike much earlier than she should with crit, while still scaling into a monster.

A champion with Vayne's absurd late game shouldn't exist in League. The same is true of Twitch IMO.

With Yasuo, it was a request for a complete erasure of his kit and identity. With Lucian, people wanted damage pumped excessively lower when only an increase in mana costs kept him in check. With Twitch - oh wait. He's still deleting teams faster than they can react.

I saw a post state that killing Vayne was too hard because the whole enemy team peeled for her. This is straight out of the post. What are you expecting with a whole team composition peeling for an ADC?

I'm fine with ADCs being hard to peel for, but Vayne's incredible late game has become too reliable. That's the problem. And unfortunately, in League to be viable one has to be reliable. That's why I think she needs a rework.

Any ADC is hard with a whole team peeling for them.

At this point, there's so much circlejerking on the boards more than Yasuo has had for years - even with confirmed nerfs. I think the boards just wants ADCs gone in general with the:

  • "Crit is too strong and a broken mechanic in the game. Remove it"

I have no beef with crit conceptually tbh. My main (Yasuo) eliminates the RNG factor pretty quickly, but even on ADCs it doesn't really bother me. It's fairly predictable.

  • "Bruisers and tanks are too slow and can never catch ADCs"
  • Isn't that the reward for kiting well though

So you think it's okay that the only counterplay those champions have towards ADCs is hoping the ADC is too bad to kite well? Why does the ADC's agency get top priority?

  • "Yasuo doesn't need a buff. He's always been a strong champion"

Well that clearly wasn't true and now he's basically okay. Not awful, but not especially strong.

Problems with Vayne:

  • Annoying toplaner

Literally the only people who give a shit about Vayne top lane are whiny juggernaut mains and that one Riven main who cries on the boards with like two threads a day tbh.

  • Too strong with Fleet Footwork+Overheal

This isn't really unique to Vayne.

  • Lethal Tempo negates her scaling as it gives her unnecessary attack speed she should not have as early

Lethal Tempo is pretty much never taken. It's hot garbage, and easily her worst keystone. The problem it has is that for many champions it is laughably easy to force the lethal tempo user to waste it by CCing them or disengaging.

  • Runes and the scenario around her give her excessive gold to hit her "late-game" pinnacle during the mid-game (An issue with all champions currently)

I'd peg it more onto how hard she spikes with shiv into IE.

Why is Vayne good now? Champions who kept her in check and the meta around her kept her calm. Like any meta switch, there will be a champion who will stand out due to the nerfs of the preceding "strongest" from the past meta.

Everyone keeps sidetracking away from actual issues.

"X" champions is too OP etc etc is actually making things worse. The bigger picture is what has caused X champion to be OP - and the biggest complaints can be attributed to the meta. The scenarios of nerfs and creeping has put champions to high positions as they become the "only thing" viable. Vayne was the only option left with all the nerfs to other ADCs.

Inevitably, Vayne was going to get nerfed at some point. It's natural the meta shifted. However, it'll never be a permanent solution and will never look at the fact that damage and mobility creep are causing ADCs to always be nerfed.

Alternatively Vayne could get a rework to give her kit some agency in lane in exchange for her hilariously stupid late game power. I don't want her nerfed. I want her reworked to have a healthier play pattern and power curve.

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