Which champions should be considered for the upcoming Roster updates?

Malicious Metal··6 votes·1,207 views

With the Assassin update already having been unleashed upon the live servers people already started discussing the potential of either a Diver or Vanguard update. Both classes have too many similar champions while lacking a concrete Vision of them as a class. Now, this thread isn't to discuss which class should be the next update but rather which CHAMPIONS.

Divers Divers are a subclass of fighters, diving into the fray to cause mayhem and head straight for the high priority targets. Unlike Assassins they lack the tools to exit the fight once they started it but rather embody the "balls to the walls" play style of flinging themselves into battle and either emerging victorious or just succumbing to overwhelming odds. Their forte is strong dueling with decent survivability, having the tools to engage the fight for themselves and just head straight for their prize.

Potential candidates: Aatrox He suffers from simply having a bland diver kit with nothing that delivers on his theme. He's a stat stick that really needs to embrace his thematic and become what he's supposed to be; A Demon of War who dictates the flow of the battle and swing the tides of war in his favor. His problem is one of thematic cohesion, satisfaction and simply being too bland of a character design.

XinZhao He's outdated and just like Aatrox a stat stick. Either he dives in and nobody can stop him or he...doesn't. His kit is heavily snowball reliant and very binary, not having much in terms of outplay potential

Nocturne Relies too heavily on ONE long CD ability while having a rather boring kit that doesn't deliver fully on his character's potential

Pantheon Pantheon has always either been utterly oppressive or useless, relying on his very telegraphed abilities to just destroy his opponents and snowball from there. He lacks counterplay and ways to do his job without simply feeling too oppressive. All his abilities are low satisfaction, low counterplay abilities that could be replaced with cooler, more unique ones.

Honorable mention: Hecarim The unholy spawn of Divers and Vanguards. Hecarim is a Hybrid between the two classes that usually feels very oppressive to play against when ahead but struggles when behind. He could use some touch ups but I just wanted to mention him here.

Vanguards Vanguards are those beefy tanks who ENGAGE the fight. Their AoE team initiation coupled with extreme durability is what defines them as their team's primary means of engage, starting the fight and overwhelming the enemy with their AoE CC, relying on their team to follow up rather than Wardens who protect their team. They're the offensive tanks and thus rely on tools to pave the way to victory for their team.

They all share the same problem of not having a real strategic niche, usually only being picked whenever they're strong. Most of them rely on their ultimates to engage and the rest of their kits are rather bland, boring and not really satisfying to use.

Potential candidates: Zac He could really benefit from getting a more versatile kit that delivers on his identity as the Amorphous Combatant, shaping to fit the battle through his flexibility and really delivering on his rather cool character of the unlikely superhero.

Sejuani Similar to Zac Sejuani just lacks a proper identity and doesn't really deliver on her tough Warrior Queen theme

Malphite Same as Sejuani. Malphite doesn't feel like the mountain he's supposed to be and it just a walking R bot, an over glorified Cannon ball that hurls himself at the enemy and expects them to die. His base kit is a bit bland and could be cooler but his E in particular is a very strong tool and really fits him as a Vanguard Tank

Those are just my picks though, what are yours? Lemme know and let's discuss the potential candidates of either the Diver or Vanguard update!

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Malphite_0.jpg

41 Comments

Ahristocats5 votes

Malphite my boy, one of the only assassin remaining when played ap i'll miss him if they nuke his ap ratios

doublelift fg1 votes

FULL AP MALPHITE

IS A NUKE BOMB

IA9hRfpP5q4 votes

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

Le balanced cancer lady that is toxic to play against and for some reason also has the most toxic cancer playerbase concentration of LoL

Maybe if her kit wasn't toxic the toxic people wouldn't concentrate around her. (She's not OP , she's unfun and toxic to go against which is 2x toxic considering the player that plays her is usually toxic as well making for a good ol' toxic game)

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

Ralanr3 votes

She's a skirmisher though.

ACENOX1 votes

if riot reworked every unfun champ in league, we would never have a balanced game

BIackfox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Whitney Houston,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dboI170V,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-12-01T12:22:10.520+0000)

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

Le balanced cancer lady that is toxic to play against and for some reason also has the most toxic cancer playerbase concentration of LoL

Maybe if her kit wasn't toxic the toxic people wouldn't concentrate around her. (She's not OP , she's unfun and toxic to go against which is 2x toxic considering the player that plays her is usually toxic as well making for a good ol' toxic game)

Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven Riven

Most toxic player base?Vayne

Big Lincoln3 votes

leave Sejuani alone, they're just gonna make her a shitty fulltank instead of the fighter she was always meant to be

Ralanr5 votes

...but she is a tank.

Big Lincoln2 votes

should be a fighter 2bh

im sure they'll normalize her tho with another super fun original shield and other tank steroids we've seen a million times

zzz

Ralanr1 votes

She has a tank steroid on her passive already.

Honestly I don't see why she would need an update. She works fine as a peeler tank.

Big Lincoln2 votes

10-25 armor is pretty horrible xd

she hardly counts as a tank anyway. not naturally durable, has high scaling instead of high bases, and her contribution is AoE damage and spammy slows

would be more interesting being pushed as a fighter with a kit like this

Ralanr1 votes

She's got too much AoE to work as a diver. If you made her a fighter, you'd have to cut some of her AoE.

Big Lincoln2 votes

didn't say diver, that subgroup is fruity

Ralanr1 votes

Too mobile and has too much CC to be a juggernaut.

BIackfox2 votes

I've been waiting for eve forever or that abomination a sol champ

GreenLore1 votes

Eve is on the list for a big VGU,she won't be part of a class-update.

Kaisa is Hot1 votes

I think Meddler said Divers were next. But they will be doing larger scope reworks on champs like Akali and Shaco/Evelynn between that I think.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Yes meddler said ''Diver update is likely to come in 2017 around summer''

Sahn Uzal1 votes

{quoted}

Hmm lots of good points for Tanks vs Divers. One additional thing to consider is how unhealthy tank itemization is right now, or more specifically how tanks (and non-tanks) interact with tank items.

While I agree on a Champion level Divers need a update the most, I think on a systemic level tanks need it the most. Choices, choices....

Just wanted to leave this Reav3 quote here, because it's quite relevant.

I think Vanguards need the help more when it comes to overlap... But individual divers have kits that are more flawed than Vanguards... The fact that Divers build some tank items is a massive argument for Vanguards going first, but Divers have AAtrox which is a massive argument for them going first...

Pantheon is waiting for a VGU, Xin Zhao aswell, right? Pretty sure he is. AAtrox and Nocturne could really, really use a class update. ESPECIALLY AAtrox.

I want Riot to stay away from Sion, because I'm afraid for a Vel'Koz-like situation. Some minor changes (like Twitch in the Marksman update) to his Passive (and maybe W passive) could be great though I agree with you on Sejuani. Rek'Sai should get some changes in a Diving Fighter update. Riot wanted to push her back into a more damage focussed build, right? A Class update would be perfect for that. Jarvan could also use some work I guess?

GreenLore1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dboI170V,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-01T10:56:51.015+0000)

Pantheon is waiting for a VGU, Xin Zhao aswell, right?

Actually Xin might not be on the list for a VGU or at least he wasn't on it when they posted the VGU-list several months ago(he might be on it now though)

I want Riot to stay away from Sion, because I'm afraid for a Vel'Koz-like situation.

I really doubt that Sion will receive major changes,he has a pretty unique playstyle already.

Rek'Sai should get some changes in a Diving Fighter update.

I think Rek'sai is currently actually classified as a vanguard,not a diver. Though I could see rek'sai being changed to be more of a fighter than vanguard,I mean her CC is based on only one skill that seems like it was never supposed to be used that much in a fight.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I think Rek'sai is currently actually classified as a vanguard,not a diver. Though I could see rek'sai being changed to be more of a fighter than vanguard,I mean her CC is based on only one skill that seems like it was never supposed to be used that much in a fight.

She is classified as a Vanguard right now, but she's intended as a Diver, and Riot wants to push her back to that playstyle.

GreenLore1 votes

Yeah its kinda confusing who is supposed to be what,since their subclass list,lists some champs already in their intended roles and some in the roles that they currently have,even if they are unintended(for example Evelynn is listed under divers,even though riot said that she is supposed to be an assassin,but Galio is already listed as a warden even though,he is more of a battlemage/vanguard right now)

61939590DEL11 votes

XinZhao needs some nerfing done in order to control his heavy snowball early game, what he lacks is being mobile. Take out his "E" dash & it should be beneficial to most players facing him.

Pantheon His ult needs an rework his range should have less than TahmKench Ults range. He can easily 1 vs 3 anyone because his ult is point anywhere on the map & click.

Aatrox his passive should be remove & replace by LS sustain potential.

GreenLore1 votes

Pantheon is actually on the list for a full VGU,so I doubt he'll get a big update during the diver-update. Similar to how they kept the changes to Evelynn Shaco Akali and Swain small during the assassin&mage updates(not sure if Eve is even supposed to be an assassin gameplaywise though,she is currently classified as a diver). Irelia is in the same boat as him.

However I agree with your diver choices in general.

Not sure about the vanguards though. I mean Malphite and Zac actually feel kinda unique already,after all malphs ult is a force to be reckoned with and pretty much changes the way the enemy team and your team plays and Zac has a really huge range with his E(though Rek'sai has a pretty good one too,so thats not as unique as it used to be) and is really good at disrupting teams with his R. Sure they both could need some work(especially malphite,whose other skills simply feel underwhelming),but they do stand out already

Amumu and Leona actually seem likely candidates(at least one of them),considering that their playstyles are really similar(pull yourself towards the enemy,deal aoe damage,use your ultimate for a mass-stun and your passive makes the enemy more vulnerable to your teammates)

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Could you give the link to the list of upcoming reworks for champions?

GreenLore1 votes

Here you go http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/uTEZqLz9-chromas-yorick-and-champ-mastery-in-ask-riot?comment=000c0000000e0000000000000000000000010000

He also mentioned Shaco,Tryndamere and Volibear being on the list for a VGU in another post in the same thread.

Timethief491 votes

Oh pls my Zac qq. Imo sejuani is already pretty Close to where her thematic is. She can change in and stay in the Fight for pretty long when you actually go Tank. The Rest I agree on. On the zac part his Flexibility is pretty strong in his e and q, though q is just really used in top zac.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Aside from those which you have mentioned I would add Janna and karma.

Ralanr1 votes

Diana. Diana could really use some work so people can stop considering her to be an AP assassin when she's an AP fighter.

WoonStruck1 votes

TBH, I think Vlad should be considered a pseuo-diver, even though he lacks a true gapcloser.

All of the high MMR Vlad mains, and even myself, find much better success going damage on him, ulting, and just bombing the backline.

Battle-mage doesn't seem to fit his mission as well as diver at this point; the problem is that he relies on having either ghost or flash up for fights.


As for reworking him to fit that, I think he'd be pretty low priority, as he's working quite well atm, despite what winrates say, and others require more work much sooner.




I'd put my money on Diana (historic problem), Jax (historic problem), Irelia (historic problem), and Xin (historic problem). Nocturne is another strong case, due to his reliance on snowball/ult to do anything.

I'm willing to bet Aatrox, Panth, etc will all get a full VGU instead of a minor update.

Malicious Metal1 votes

He's a Battlemage though iirc

WoonStruck1 votes

He is, but he doesn't find success in the ways people expect a 'battle-mage' to.

He has a low average winrate for a reason, despite people with many games on him having stellar performance on him.

I do not believe Vlad is weak atm, just that what he accomplishes fits another classification more accurately, and that he could be more healthy if he were pushed in that direction slightly.

Saianna1 votes

Evelynn Evelynn Aatrox Evelynn and every champion with retarded AA true damage in their kits (Fiora/Yi/Gp etc..).

True damage used to be rare. Now it's a common tool to give extra power to all fighter class champions.

JafarThePanda1 votes

MonkeyKing needs to do something besides W R flash out before he gets annihilated because building tank gives him zero damage and going full damage gets him two shot in the mid/late game Pantheon main here - he's needed a rework for a long time. There's plenty of counterplay to his kit and it isn't hard to dodge the giant obvious circle he's man dropping on, and because he's fucking mana gated to all hell, that's why people take him jungle over in lane. Ekko do something about this cancer that makes him balanced for once

Impish Yordle1 votes

Garen : What is this guy's niche? Like really? What is Garen supposed to do what others don't do better aside from annoying Rivens with the silence? The villain mechanic looks decent on paper but feels more like a situational gimmick.

Olaf : Outdated ball of stats. He is either a useless bar of health or a bulldozer that you can't do anything about. Ghost Ragnarok is oppressive as hell.

Nasus : Ball of stats with an unintuitive afk-farming playstyle with even less mechanics than Garen that is all about stat-checking rather than properly outplaying or interacting with other players. Design-wise the worst juggernaut at the moment. This champion deserves better. Unfunny cane-jokes won't help him.

MonkeyKing : Spin to win 2.0. If Garen had less tankiness and better engage.

Chogath : Live and die by the Q

Teemo : Really... Can Riot please give this guy a proper rework...? The moment the enemy team is smart enough to buy the items that counter his ult he becomes a poor-man's Kayle. If that's not the case he's toxic and unhealthy. Outdated hard-to-balance kit, fragile niche and overall doesn't bring enough to the table.

Ralanr1 votes

Three juggernauts, a diver, whatever Cho is (I think battlemage hybrid) and Teemo.

Teemo...idk. Teemo's kit makes sense for him.

Impish Yordle1 votes

Fiora got changed because of bad game health and insufficient use of her theme. Quinn got changed because of her unreliable weird niche that didn't work out long-term. Warwick is getting a rework because of binary design and unintuitive kit structure: Point-and-click Q, stat W, pure passive E and an ult that makes or breaks the champion based on whether the enemy chooses to itemize against it. Teemo suffers from all 3 of those problems.

Forhonor3211 votes

Aatrox - he just doesn't really seem to deliver on his theme and is rather weaker then most other divers. Evelynn - her kit just feels outdated and personally not interesting in some areas Irelia - Just.... her kit is currently overloaded with almost everything a fighter wants: slow/stun, gap closer, heal on hit, true damage, ranged spell vamp, oh and increasing tenacity per opponents nearby. She's just not that fun to play against when she just stuns you when you're ONE POINT of health higher than her. I also feel like they could deliver a better telekinetic blades feel better as well. Malphite - Idk he's in a odd spot for me but I feel like he could be a huge candidate for a rework. (so long as they keep his iconic ult and still allow him to go AP) Mordekaiser - Lets face it, he's not in the best spot right now after the failed bot melee carry attempt. At this point I'm just confused on what his niche is besides being the guy who constantly has a shield health bar. Nunu - I just have a personally hatred for this guy based on his current kit, but at the same time I do want him to be reworked, not out of hate but just so we get something more interesting. I mean, he doesn't really fit in as a support anymore and I rarely see him in the jungle (probably due to changes) so I think it's time to give this guy a rework. Olaf - Not necessarily a huge rework as most other I've mentioned but I do feel like his kit is a tad bit dated and could use a small fix Pantheon - pretty much agree with everything you said top. He either snowballs early then falls off later, or fails early and is kinda useless for the rest of the game. Swain - Idk swain from what I've heard is fairly powerful but whenever I play him he just doesn't seem like that (course that just be me not knowing how to play him) I feel like he could benefit from a full GU then the minor mage rework. Tryndamere - IT'S JUST TIME THIS GUY GOT A REWORK! I'm so sick of playing against, even though everyone says he's weak. To me he's just like playing against Yasuo, his kit is just annoying to deal with that I don't want to fight him. Passive crit chance, wonky W, insane mobility with E also being his only damaging ability, and overall a bullshit ult (not in the sense that he can't die, but the sense that no matter how much CC you apply to him he can still set it off, basically turning him into a CC magnet till his ult wears off) From my view he just constantly split pushes and is just annoying to deal with. Urgot - I think its also time our new old yorick got the rework time already. He is in desperate need of it. MonkeyKing - For a start, I don't like how a fighter/tank is able to go invisible. To me that sets him more up to be an assassin. Second, most of the time I see him he almost always builds large damage items rather than one or two then going tank, mostly due to (I assume) to his passive. I'd just say rework him to an assassin if that's how I constantly see him in my games

Ultîma1 votes

Imo, tanks are the most likely candidates.

Tanks will always be chosen with regards to who has access to the most reliable source of CC and the best stats. There's way too much overlap in their overall function for more than 1 or 2 of them to ever be viable above one-another. That's why we have Malphite metas, Sejuani metas, Zac metas, but rarely do we ever see more than one of these guys sharing the spotlight. It's a very similar issue than what was prevalent with assassins before (where only Zed or Leblanc were really picked due to their safety and lane dominance).

Moreover, their reliance on a limited pool of items makes them feel very unsatisfying to play when they have access to a lot of gold since they can't effectively transition their lead into interesting or powerful item purchases. I feel as though issues related to Divers are closely related to individual character designs rather than a broader systemic problem that needs to be tackled at multiple levels.

I feel as though Xin, Irelia, Pantheon and Aatrox need more than a class update to deliver on their potential as characters, and would benefit more from dedicated VGUs than tanks.

Teridax681 votes

I agree with this list, though I'd probably add a few more. For the Diver update I'd add:

  • Irelia: she likely needs a full VGU to resolve her issues, as she's fairly one-note, just like Xin Zhao, fundamentally lacks interesting counterplay, and doesn't deliver on her unique theme in an interesting way, but could use some sprucing up in the meantime.
  • Wukong: He's a bit generic, and isn't nearly as mischievous as his theme would suggest. With some work, he could be a truly interesting character, and one of the game's very few deceptive fighters.
  • Renekton: He still kinda struggles to make a real contribution past the laning phase. The main culprit is his ult, which is just a stat boost and a copy of Nasus's own ult, which doesn't currently feel all that unique.

For the Vanguards, I'd add:

  • Nautilus: He's supposed to be the king of CC, but has been outclassed by a lot of more recent tanks. He also struggles to clear the jungle, despite that being his main intended role.
  • Rammus: When he gets ahead, he has very little counterplay, and for all the hate marksman get, it's not fun for them to just be forced to kill themselves without them being able to do much about it. He has a really cool niche as a more damage-heavy tank, but it could be implemented better, especially since his ult right now is really boring.
  • Amumu: Amumu's one of those older champions who's only really designed to do one thing, i.e. throw himself into the enemy team and explode in a bunch of PBAoE damage, which is why he stomps lower elos and tends to struggle beyond that. There are some clarity issues to his E damage reduction and his ult, too, and overall he just needs to have more interesting gameplay for himself and his enemies.
l Helios l1 votes

I legit made a similar thread about a month ago. It turned into a discussion on what Olaf is. Fun times.

Both groups need updates though.

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