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I feel sustain champions need to bring more to the table.

Ralanr··5 votes·882 views

Mundo, Aatrox, Vlad, these primary sustained based champions don't really bring anything else of value to the table. They are defined by their ability to heal themselves.

Problem is that healing in this game can be a real big mess of problems (look at Soraka's balance history for an example I guess). It's either too strong, or doesn't have enough impact. The only time it might have a middle ground is when it isn't the defining factor of a champions kit.

Take Warwick now. Yes he's a heavy sustain champion, but it's limited to only working at half health. He also provides things like an AoE fear (with damage reduction), a suppression ult, situational mobility, and a global tracker. Yes GW still hurts him, but (thanks to his E imo) it's not making him useless.

What does Aatrox, Mundo, and Vlad rely on beyond their sustain? I'm sure the mains can tell me, but I don't see anything beyond the obvious damage. But if that's all I provide and 800g prevents me from even lasting long enough for that, then why would I pick them over someone else.

I don't think it's an issue with GW, I think it's an issue of these champions being overly reliant on their sustain. It cripples them.

26 Comments

ZT Xperimentor7 votes

Meanwhile marksmen get even better sustain for nothing, again.

Ralanr1 votes

Probably because they aren't completely reliant on sustain to even function. It helps them do their job better, but they don't need it to do their job.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Then why does nearly every marksmen get some form of sustain? Either the mastery or several items.

Ralanr1 votes

Because it compliments them.

What I'm saying is that marksmen are easier to balance around their sustain for various reasons, one of which being that they don't need healing to do their job as reliable dps. They'll die faster sure, but it's a choice they can make.

Aatrox doesn't have that choice, he needs sustain to work because that was his design choice. It's what he's balanced around and gets destroyed whenever anti healing items are easy to purchase.

Aatrox shouldn't be crippled by his healing. But trying to define him by it only cripples him.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Damage per second . . . however they function more like physical mages given their criticals are huge burst, but can spam without cost and significantly faster, at range. Mages lost will of the ancients for being able to heal a bunch infrequently, and the lifesteal items benefit marksmen much more than any melee because they can heal for large chunks repeatedly.

I already know aatrox was designed around sustain, the problem is that riot willingly ignores a cheap item makes him irrelevant entirely. Rather have his sustain reduced slightly, but gain some resistance to grievous wounds; or have an ability to be immune to grievous wounds for a time. Instead of these frustrating juggling windows of power, when plenty of other champions can do what he's supposed to, much better than him.

Ralanr1 votes

So if for example Aatrox could get immunity for GW, how are you supposed to beat him?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

" . . . or have an ability to be immune to grievous wounds for a time." As in briefly, on a button with a cooldown. Like yasou's windwall should work, powerful if used at the right time, and vulnerable if not.

Ralanr2 votes

It's more akin to Vayne's ult than Yasuo's windwall because Yasuo can royally fuck up the positioning of the windwall and you can play around the windwall while it is active by changing the angle of your skill shots.

This sounds like a supermode, and I don't really see counterplay to those beyond not fighting them. It's hard to not fight someone who's job is to stick to you.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Indeed. Counterplay? Crowd control & fleeing would work; how can he lifesteal if he can't attack you? Treat him like tryndamere, wait him out or force him to stall.

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dZY6uGLW,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T17:09:58.137+0000)

Indeed. Counterplay? Crowd control & fleeing would work; how can he lifesteal if he can't attack you? Treat him like tryndamere, wait him out or force him to stall.

As I said before.

It's hard to not fight someone who's job is to stick to you.

I bolded that part to make it clear. It's hard (incredibly difficult actually) to get away from someone who is designed to get on and stay on you.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Sticky? Perhaps, but he relies on skillshots; which are still short ranged and delayed I'd suspect, as I haven't seen him in action yet. Not to mention that most of the popular champions have their own mobility, and his competition has stronger & more reliable gap-closers.

Ralanr1 votes

One skill shot that helps him stick to the target, and another that slows people. I wouldn't say he's really that skill shot reliant as a heavy AA champion.

And this isn't only an Aatrox problem. Vlad and Mundo suffer from over specializing in self sustain also.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Along with several marksmen who can be better for skillshots. Same with swain, mordekaiser, & tahm; if they can't sustain, they're pretty useless due to being blown up before being effective.

Ralanr1 votes

Marksmen don't actually need sustain to do their job. Tahm doesn't sustain in combat so GW doesn't effect him much at all.

Mordekaiser, Swain, Vlad and Mundo though (and Aatrox)? Definitely. They rely on it too much.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Then why does riot keep giving them more? Marksmen used to rely on their team to keep them alive, instead now days they can take care of themselves, no surprise that multi-marksmen teams have been more effective than before. item 3153 item 3812 item 3156 item 3139 And not entirely, tahm's restoration occurs a couple seconds after he stops taking damage, but grievous wounds can last several seconds, kneecapping what he regenerates from his passive. Oh I wasn't excluding aatrox from being a sustain-tank, just pointing out others share the issue.

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dZY6uGLW,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-08T17:37:55.307+0000)

Then why does riot keep giving them more? Marksmen used to rely on their team to keep them alive, instead now days they can take care of themselves, no surprise that multi-marksmen teams have been more effective than before. item 3153 item 3812 item 3156 item 3139 And not entirely, tahm's restoration occurs a couple seconds after he stops taking damage, but grievous wounds can last several seconds, kneecapping what he regenerates from his passive. Oh I wasn't excluding aatrox from being a sustain-tank, just pointing out others share the issue.

Idk why Riot keeps giving marksmen sustain. Maybe because it helps them a lot.

I can go full crit Ashe and do a shit ton of damage, but I'll die eventually without some sort of sustain. It's a recommended option I can choose to help make me do my job better.

With regular self sustain champions, they rely on it to do their job at all and thus get more punishment out of anti sustain items.

With marksmen it's not their only support beam to hold up their house.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Which just proves the favoritism that's been painfully apparent for years.

That's part of why there's a team, to protect the carry; when most any other champion class can cover it's weaknesses, they get gutted. Except marksmen, again. Problem is marksmen function as better drain-tanks than the actual drain-tanks, and riot continues to avoid the issue.

Toastersaot1 votes

{quoted}

One skill shot that helps him stick to the target, and another that slows people. I wouldn't say he's really that skill shot reliant as a heavy AA champion.

And this isn't only an Aatrox problem. Vlad and Mundo suffer from over specializing in self sustain also.

Mundo is going to get a full VGU. As a Vladimir main I think that his healing is important, but currently the damage he can do is much more important than it. He doesn't have absurd AP ratios for no reason.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

What does Aatrox, Mundo, and Vlad rely on beyond their sustain? I'm sure the mains can tell me, but I don't see anything beyond the obvious damage.

Mordekaiser Pretty much defines this guy (besides dragon ghost) Shield + heal is his kit.

Rito Staff2 votes

Yo, I'll walk you through the self-sustain tank logic, or reason of existence. First, take notice of the name. Drain - Tank. So we know that they self sustain, and they tank. So what?

A tank has lots of peel and some DoT damage that will be dealt over their lifespan.

A drain-tank trades innate tankyness and CC, for self-sustain and mobility -- it's a trade off.

Their healing is not given, nor guaranteed. "So why not just pick a reallly tanky dude bruh?" Because given that you allow Aatrox to heal then yes, he should be able to soak tons of damage, more than other tanks do - just like Yasuo does for some reason ;). Which is the point of the self sustain tank, to tank more than other tanks, GIVEN they can heal back.

They are skill based, to match fighting a skill based class themselves, fighters. Thats why Aatrox is also a duelist.

Want a picture?

Fighters win tanks. Drain-tanks win figthers. Why? Resillience through heal.

"Bbbb-b-b-but thats unfair, it is binary, either too strong or too weak" Move? Slow? Hmm which champions have mobility and soft or hard peel?

So I am saying that, it is ok that Aatrox is squishy. It is ok that he doesn't have damage steroids. It's not ok that he can't f*ckin heal properly, nor do anything properly for that matter.

Walk me through how a conditional heal is problematic for you.

Ralanr1 votes

I wouldn't exactly call drain tanks like Aatrox skill based considering him stat checking people was one of his bigger issues and the reason why he was in the gutter for so long (and to you, still is).

But if you honestly want Aatrox to be so goddamn reliant on his ability to heal, ok. I'm not sure why you're ok with a design that hinges on people not building GW to completely fuck your over. Especially since it's really the only way to fight someone if they have great sustain in a 1v1 (and I don't think Aatrox is supposed to automatically win 1v1's anyway. So he needs room to lose even without GW, making GW much more effective against him).

I'm not against healing, I'm against that being the only thing you rely on to even function.

Rito Staff1 votes

Will you sit there getting hit by him?

As I said it's only a stat check if people want to. Aatrox is very squishy, the counter to him would be to poke him down a bit first, which then he'd have to go heal off monsters or minions.

And remember, Aatrox doesn't have damage, the only thing he's gonna do if he lands his Q is heal back up. Which you respond with disengaging and not getting caught again. The counter to drain-tanks is poke and focus. Notice how I didn't say CC.

He has his Q to get to you, and you have to dodge his Q, which is not the hardest thing to do.

Attack speed slows him down enought for you to coreograph when you should back, as it happens a lot in lane actually.

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Noat Amu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dZY6uGLW,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-08T17:42:11.984+0000)

Will you sit there getting hit by him?

No, but it's not like he's going to make running easy either.

As I said it's only a stat check if people want to. Aatrox is very squishy, the counter to him would be to poke him down a bit first, which then he'd have to go heal off monsters or minions.

Not everyone has poke but ok.

And remember, Aatrox doesn't have damage, the only thing he's gonna do if he lands his Q is heal back up. Which you respond with disengaging and not getting caught again. The counter to drain-tanks is poke and focus. Notice how I didn't say CC.

No, he's going to also attack me while I'm midair and can't fight back.

He has his Q to get to you, and you have to dodge his Q, which is not the hardest thing to do.

Never said it was.

Attack speed slows him down enought for you to coreograph when you should back, as it happens a lot in lane actually.

That's all fine and good, but it doesn't really disprove that he's too reliant on his healing to not be shut down by an 800g item and why that's bad.

Toastersaot1 votes

{quoted}

No, but it's not like he's going to make running easy either.

Not everyone has poke but ok.

No, he's going to also attack me while I'm midair and can't fight back.

Never said it was.

That's all fine and good, but it doesn't really disprove that he's too reliant on his healing to not be shut down by an 800g item and why that's bad.

item 3123 probably needs a rework, alongside healing in general. However, if Vladimir had something to go with his healing, say hard CC or mobility, then his kit would be overloaded as hell.

His kit offers healing, an invulnerability, a damage amp, two soft CCs, a health for AP and vice versa passive, and absurd amounts of AoE damage. If you give that some mobility or some hard CC, you'll have to scrap something else very important to the theme of the champion.

Rito Staff1 votes

The problem is GW existing to counter Yasuo Jinx item 3072 and sometimes Warlords and not self-sustain champions at all...

Ralanr2 votes

No, it's been to counter self sustain champions like Mundo, Swain, Vlad, and also Soraka heals for a long time. It counters ALL healing in general. That's why it fucks over self sustain champions so hard, they are super reliant on their healing to work.

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